Space 5 - Old hands can be newbs too, getting back in the game

[TedJackson]

lurker's comment: In the city screen purple squares are drawn around the tiles the city will expand to next. Usually several tiles are considered of equal value, sometimes there's just one tile earmarked.
In a box in the upper left corner can be read how many turns til the next expansion.

To buy tiles becomes more expensive with every tile you buy. I would certainly buy that iron tile before Venice gets it, of course, but you wouldn't easily buy a tile that's yours in a few turns anyway.
Hills and especially mountains are more expansive than flat, foody terrain.

Thanks for the info

I like barracks!

Yes experience is a bit easier to gather (at early promotion levels at least) in Civ5, but I still think a barracks, at least in the high production cities which are being used as unit factories are a good idea.

My rationale is that in Civ5, units are a bit more precious than in earlier versions – you have less of them, they take longer to get to the front lines, they cost “more” (I guess they don’t die as easily as earlier versions, which is a benefit). Essentially, I am much less inclined to sacrifice a unit in Civ5 than in earlier versions. From this perspective, if a barracks gives you a slight edge and keeps a unit or two alive that would otherwise have died, it is worth it.

If you think of it simply in terms of would you prefer the hammers to go into a barracks or another unit, then a barracks only costs as much as a single swordsman.

Picking up on the point re the Heroic Epic – yes, that is worthwhile. But, linking back to my point on puppets: you have no control over what a puppet builds. Fortunately (if I recall correctly), the pre-requisite building issue does not apply to puppet cities. Best to build it early (when you only have a few cities) than later, otherwise (as Optional notes), you invest a hell of a lot of hammers building barracks in cities that don't need them.

I would suggest annexing the main French cities, rather than creating puppets.

@Ted: Once we have the hanging gardens and we get some growth, keep an eye on overall happiness. If it starts to cap out (or even before this), we should consider appointing a scientist or two in MBR. The Hanging Gardens will push us towards a Great Artist IIRC. Would be nice if our first GP was a scientist, allowing us to build an academy (this is a space race, after all!). I think we should tech towards Philosophy for the National College soonish, but probably after we have the French lands.

Noted.

All of this is logical and makes sense. Building some are fine with me.

I just dislike paying maintenance on them.


Do we not need a Library in every city in order to build National College? If so, the same principle applies to Barracks and Heroic Epic, sooner the better. If we wait until after we take the French Cities and we annex them, then we have to wait until we build Libraries in them. Puppeting them initially would allow us to get the National College built in the capital sooner.

Noted.

I doubt if I'll get to the point of declaration in my turns but if I do then I'll probably puppet initially allowing future players to decide when the best time to annex.

I'm going to play now and hope to finish my ten in one sitting if possible.


Ted

 

[ainwood]

Do we not need a Library in every city in order to build National College? If so, the same principle applies to Barracks and Heroic Epic, sooner the better. If we wait until after we take the French Cities and we annex them, then we have to wait until we build Libraries in them. Puppeting them initially would allow us to get the National College built in the capital sooner.

Only difference is that we'll probably want to build libraries in every city anyway, but your point is valid.

 

[TedJackson]

I've only played the first complete turn but each time I've pressed the "Next Turn" button (pre-turn & end of turn 1) the Workers on the Iron & the Cattle come up as units needing orders so I've re-applied the orders but when I look in the Military Overview they have no orders



Any suggestions?


Ted

 

[leif erikson]

If there are no Barbs around, it may just be that we are not friends with Venice, so it is alerting you to a danger than Venice may try to steal our unprotected Worker? Not sure.

Think you can just give them orders each turn and they will eventually complete their tasks.

 

[ainwood]

Yeah - pain in the bum. Mouse over the worker action, and ensure that it says something like "Build Mine (3 turns)". If it doesn't say number of turns, it should build within one. You probably need to confirm the worker action every turn, unfortunately, but if you go a number of turns and there is no real progress (number of turns to complete doesn't reduce), then try exiting and reloading. I am convinced it is still buggy.

 

[TedJackson]

If there are no Barbs around, it may just be that we are not friends with Venice, so it is alerting you to a danger than Venice may try to steal our unprotected Worker? Not sure.

Think you can just give them orders each turn and they will eventually complete their tasks.

I tried reloading but that didn't seem to help

Yeah - pain in the bum. Mouse over the worker action, and ensure that it says something like "Build Mine (3 turns)". If it doesn't say number of turns, it should build within one. You probably need to confirm the worker action every turn, unfortunately, but if you go a number of turns and there is no real progress (number of turns to complete doesn't reduce), then try exiting and reloading. I am convinced it is still buggy.

Then I exited, restarted & reloaded and this time the Mine & Pasture completed
Also the (new) Worker assignments are now showing correctly in Military overview

I guess I'll just have to keep an eye on the Workers every turn.


Ted

 

[TedJackson]

Finished 5 turns and here's a sight for sore eyes:





Off to bed now as it's 2 am and I need my beauty sleep


Ted

 

[leif erikson]

Excellent news!

Hope you enjoy your beauty sleep.

 

[mad-bax]

Think you can just give them orders each turn and they will eventually complete their tasks.

That's what I was doing. I just think it's units that are too far away for us to see, but apparently close enough for the workers to see. Doesn't make much sense to me.

Good news on hanging gardens. Think build orders are really the critical thing ATM. Do we pump units out of MBR or not? If not, then what else? Boats for the fish? It seems a lot of hammers. Maybe barracks and then swords in MB-R, finish barracks then swords in TK, and cats in SS? Then barracks and library in SS, library in TK and heroic epic then academy in MBR?

 

[TedJackson]

That's what I was doing. I just think it's units that are too far away for us to see, but apparently close enough for the workers to see. Doesn't make much sense to me.

I 'll keep an eye on the situation and see what happens

Good news on hanging gardens. Think build orders are really the critical thing ATM. Do we pump units out of MBR or not? If not, then what else? Boats for the fish? It seems a lot of hammers. Maybe barracks and then swords in MB-R, finish barracks then swords in TK, and cats in SS? Then barracks and library in SS, library in TK and heroic epic then academy in MBR?

War prep is the way I'm planning on going. Barracks are still running in TK, I started a Spear in M-BR (in case of Greek attack) and the SS's CA should complete this turn.

I think we'll be in for a fair amount of war in the short term so maybe the Heroic Epic would be a good choice for us (215 hammers).

I guess that'll be a subject for discussion when I hand over


Ted

 

[TedJackson]

I'm at the beginning of turn 77 and France have just declared on us. Here's a shot of the situation just before the end of turn 76 - the CA retreated to the Marble before EOT.


Here's the DoW


I plan on letting him come to us unless anyone else has a brighter idea

As an aside I've also got an SP choice so I plan to take Oligarchy (Free garrison & cities with garrison +100% ranged combat) - again, any counter-suggestions welcome.

I'll break for lunch now and then I'm out for a couple of hours or so. I'll probably pick up play mid-evening (8 hrs from now).


Ted

 

[leif erikson]

Letting him come our way is a good idea, perhaps we can destroy all his units...

May want to move the Archer just north of the Chariot Archer 1 hex SW onto the jungle hill. Chariot Archers are kind of useless on hilly terrain, may want to move him to the hill immediately NW of SS, gives him a good shot at anything moving to attack the city. We want to be able to concentrate as much ranged harm on him while minimizing our own exposure.

Please remember that he can bombard the city to zero and he cannot take it without a melee or horse unit. Do not let any such units live.

What we need is a melee unit that can take on the Archers, but will have to use Jaguars I think.

Please keep an eye to the north for Alex, dogpiles we do not need atm.

 

[ainwood]

If he only has archers and warriors, then that's not so bad. I would expect that we should be in pretty good shape for this, given that we've recently started our plans for war anyway, and would not see the need to alter them too much at all.

The road to Space Station means that we can move units there faster. We don't have a lot of cash, and I would say that we only rush units if we absolutely have to. We could actually upgrade a Jaguar Warrior to a swordsman, but that would take ~145 of our gold IIRC.

A couple of points about defensive wars in 1UPT: When you have a unit garrisoned in a city and you create another unit in that city, then that unit must move on the first turn, and IIRC it can generally not attack. The game rules insist that the first priority is to clear the unit from the city, and stop two units being stacked on the one tile. It certainly cannot attack a unit next to the city, even if there is a 100% likelihood of victory. If you try to move it one tile then attack, if that tile is under zone-of-control, then it can only move one tile and can't attack. Can't remember all the exact details, but the general point is that it is sometimes a good idea to move a garrison unit out at an appropriate time so that the newly created unit can attack - particularly if that newly created unit is a ranged unit.

In terms of strategy: What Leif said. I wouldn't be too quick to move units from the north down. Like Civ3/4, the AI builds offensive and defensive units, and we will only see the offense ones come. They will likely stick to the defensive terrain, coming along the hills / forests to the north. Moving our Jag that way for its abilities to move and fight effectively in jungle may be a good idea.

How long before the iron is hooked-up?

 

[Optional]

lurker's comment: Did I mention yet you've got some warmongers on your continent? Since vanilla warmongering has been toned down a little, probably for the better. Napoleon is the worst, also his 'boldness' is very high, meaning that he'll even happily attack with a weaker army.
I don't understand why he already declares with his units not even on your borders yet. I'm not usually seeing this, maybe it's a vanilla thing.

What is good for you is that in Civ 5 units normally keep their promotions on upgrade. So your jaguar, once upgraded to a swordsman, still will be a woodsman, heal 2 hitpoints upon a kill and have a strength bonus in jungle. So if you want swordsmen - you will want swordsmen, of course - it's best to build jaguars and gold-upgrade them to swords. They are better than swords built from scratch. Jaguars become obsolete with Metal Casting, so you have some time to build a few more (than the grand total of one you've built until now ).

 

[TedJackson]

Back on deck!

A bit later than I planned but the promise of a fat, juicy steak and a couple of glasses of nice wine swayed me from my course. What can I say? I'm easily led

Thanks for the comments and advice guys. I'm digesting them and will probably spend quite some time assessing my options.

I'm hoping Napoleon will just try a head-on assault on SS but I'll need to protect TK until his intentions are clear.

Should be a fun few turns to play. I'll try not to leave the next player in the lurch


Ted

 

[leif erikson]

Just to clarify ainwood's comment about the new unit not being able to attack.

Due to 1 upt and units damaging each other in combat instead of outright winning or losing, a city that builds a new unit, and has a garrison unit, the new unit cannot attack because after attacking its turn ends and it cannot end its turn stacked.

Moving one of the units out of the city will allow the other to attack. Moving the unit of the city, on the road, preserves much of its movement allowance, so it can still attack but from another direction because if attacking through the city, it would end its turn stacked.

So it is all about not being able to stack units.

I hope that was clear and understandable.

 

[AlanH]

Eeek! I'm getting nervous already. When did Space say she's be back?

 

[TedJackson]

@leif: OK, got the stacking thing in my head.

@AlanH: Oh dear...

I'm on turn 79 and the Greeks declared IBT I'm going to finish off tomorrow as I've had a few glasses of wine and I don't want to wreck the game by under-performing under the influence

Here's a taster of the French forces (I had to retreat the CA on the previous turn as I was caught out by AoC ):



Fear not brave Monte


Ted

 

[ainwood]

Well, this has certainly got exciting! I'd be interested in seeing the northern picture as well. I don't suppose Cathy is willing to get involved with one of our wars?

I presume the "Choose production" is the spear completing in MBR? Need to decide whether it is more urgently required at SS or TK.

Tactically, I would move the archer on the jungle hill to the NE to the forest tile NW of it, and continue to retreat it, otherwise it will be toast. I wouldn't suggest attacking with it. In hindsight, retreating it earlier would have been preferable, along with the CA, but we are where we are. The CA should try to loop around, staying out of trouble. If it takes less turns, it might be better to assign it to Ted's Keep defence, and move the archer there down the road to SS (road crosses the river twice, which is a pain). I would also consider moving the swordsman out of SS, probably to the bananas tile or the iron mine, and move the archer to the SE of SS to the city.

What I would expect the AI to do is to move up and try to bombard SS's defences down before actually trying to attack it with a warrior or the horseman, but given that it has archers not cats, this may not be true! I can't recall how the vanilla AI handles city attacks (aside from "badly"!) I don't think we'll get the CA or the other archer back to help for quite a few turns.

So.. we can either try to knock-down the archers, or knock-down the units. Current turn, attacking the archer is the only option for the city. After that, I would suggest that the city, (and the archer if we garrison the archer in it) try to knock-down any melee unit that comes close, ignoring the archers.

I can't remember how the vanilla AI handles wounded units. I think that once they get past a certain threshold damage, they tend to withdraw them (or bizarrely, fortify them to heal if they are only under threat by siege / ranged units). If we get the opportunity for a kill, we should take it, but depending on how the battle goes, the priority should be to force a withdraw.

The sword can be used to mop-up units, but take care! It has great bonuses when sitting in jungle / forest, and on hills. We don't want to leave it in the open, susceptible to counter-attack (eg. it would be a bad idea to use it to kill the wounded archer now). Preferably, it is better to use it as a "tank" to slow down an attack, or to mop-up units that are on good defensive terrain (the AI looks at the base defensive bonus of the tile, not what units may attack it on it. Therefore, our woodsmen promoted sword will be useful as the AI tries to stick to wooded areas).

 

[leif erikson]

Well, this has certainly got exciting! I'd be interested in seeing the northern picture as well. I don't suppose Cathy is willing to get involved with one of our wars?

Indeed. Can check but I think getting Cathy involved requires more Gold.

Tactically, I would move the archer on the jungle hill to the NE to the forest tile NW of it, and continue to retreat it, otherwise it will be toast. I wouldn't suggest attacking with it. In hindsight, retreating it earlier would have been preferable, along with the CA, but we are where we are. The CA should try to loop around, staying out of trouble. If it takes less turns, it might be better to assign it to Ted's Keep defence, and move the archer there down the road to SS (road crosses the river twice, which is a pain). I would also consider moving the swordsman out of SS, probably to the bananas tile or the iron mine, and move the archer to the SE of SS to the city.

Think the exposed Archer could move back to the Banana Hill as there is a desert hill to block Archer fire and deter Warriors? That would keep him near the city.

Can probably place the Sword where the Worker is (NW of SS) and move an Archer into the city?

So.. we can either try to knock-down the archers, or knock-down the units. Current turn, attacking the archer is the only option for the city. After that, I would suggest that the city, (and the archer if we garrison the archer in it) try to knock-down any melee unit that comes close, ignoring the archers.

Agree completely, focus on the Warriors and Horse units.

The sword can be used to mop-up units, but take care! It has great bonuses when sitting in jungle / forest, and on hills. We don't want to leave it in the open, susceptible to counter-attack (eg. it would be a bad idea to use it to kill the wounded archer now). Preferably, it is better to use it as a "tank" to slow down an attack, or to mop-up units that are on good defensive terrain (the AI looks at the base defensive bonus of the tile, not what units may attack it on it. Therefore, our woodsmen promoted sword will be useful as the AI tries to stick to wooded areas).