1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Space 5 - Old hands can be newbs too, getting back in the game

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Succession Games' started by a space oddity, May 25, 2013.

  1. mad-bax

    mad-bax Deity GOTM Staff

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2003
    Messages:
    5,229
    What happens if we start heroic epic and then found a new city? Do we only need barracks in all cities at the start of the HE build?

    Personally, since this is a Space Race, I would prefer to build Academy and cats.
     
  2. ainwood

    ainwood Consultant. Administrator

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2001
    Messages:
    30,078
    This is bizarre. When I load the save, the library doesn't have any specialist slots. Patch 1.0.2.44

    So...after some research, I get that a patch at some point removed the scientist slot from libraries (I thought it was G&K, not vanilla). But why can Alan appoint a scientist?
     
  3. ainwood

    ainwood Consultant. Administrator

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2001
    Messages:
    30,078
    You have to stop work on the HE. You need to finish the HE with all cities having barracks.
     
  4. Optional

    Optional Deity

    Joined:
    May 22, 2007
    Messages:
    2,935
    Location:
    It Dockumer Lokaeltsje
    lurker's comment: Buildings that require a certain building in all towns also go up in hammer cost with every extra town founded.
    I've built the Heroic Epic only once in a game, this was with 3 towns. But 3 barracks is 225 hammers (3 x 75), plus the hammer cost for the Herioc Epic itself. That's a lot of hammers, you can actually build a small army with that, I realised afterwards.
    Once you have the Heroic Epic, of course in that town you want to build your units, for the Moral promotion. But then why would you still have barracks in those other towns? You might as well sell them off straight away once the Heroic Epic is finished, so you don't spend maintenance on unnecessary buildings.
    Please build the Heroic Epic and don't let me stop you. My opinion is only my opinion, but I rather have units straight away than going for all this infrastructure first.

    And I would put the National College well above the Herioc Epic on my wish list. You could say the National College also boosts your military because it'll give you the potential to reach advanced military techs earlier.
    In vanilla the National College is still relatively early in the tech tree, so you don't need to postpone expansion that much for it (National College requires a library in every town). In Gods & Kings it's later in the tech tree and it becomes a much harder decision whether you should postpone expansion for it, but here you already have the tech and I would simply go for it now. Also you don't have great town locations around you for expansion, the lack of luxes would become a problem if you further expand.
    While you've focused heavily in growth in your existing towns (granaries, Hanging Gardens...), so you're already growing without new towns.
    Growth in your capital is going so quick I would work those mines now instead of having it on food focus. Stone Works are very good to build soon, in your capital and Space Station; they give both a production boost and happiness.
     
  5. AlanH

    AlanH Mac addict, php monkey Moderator Hall of Fame Staff Supporter GOTM Staff

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2003
    Messages:
    29,317
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    England
    I should probably have posted this:

    Roster:
    a space oddity
    mad-bax
    TedJackson
    AlanH
    leif erikson <<< UP
    ainwood
     
  6. leif erikson

    leif erikson Game of the Month Fanatic Administrator Supporter GOTM Staff

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2003
    Messages:
    26,877
    Location:
    Plymouth, MA
    Need to request a position swap in the roster as I am also up in SGOTM17 and the deadline looms. ;)

    btw, I agree with Optional, would prefer to put hammers into Libraries and National College. How soon do we want to settle down south?

    Maybe we should :hammer: some foreign cities before settling?
     
  7. AlanH

    AlanH Mac addict, php monkey Moderator Hall of Fame Staff Supporter GOTM Staff

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2003
    Messages:
    29,317
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    England
    Will a swap give you enough time to deal with SGOTM 17, leif? Or is a skip better?
     
  8. AlanH

    AlanH Mac addict, php monkey Moderator Hall of Fame Staff Supporter GOTM Staff

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2003
    Messages:
    29,317
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    England
    We only have one completed Barracks currently, with a half completed one in SS and none being built. So there's only one maintenance charge on the books for TK's Barracks.

    I was prioritising Libraries over Barracks given the Science objective, and we nearly have two of those.

    Your choice.
     
  9. ainwood

    ainwood Consultant. Administrator

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2001
    Messages:
    30,078
  10. AlanH

    AlanH Mac addict, php monkey Moderator Hall of Fame Staff Supporter GOTM Staff

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2003
    Messages:
    29,317
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    England
    I looked at it again. I thought I appointed the scientist. but actually, I didn't. I think I was just wandering about in the Civilopedia. It looks as if you can only draft scientists in a University.
     
  11. ainwood

    ainwood Consultant. Administrator

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2001
    Messages:
    30,078
    Ok - makes sense. The original (pre-patch) version had two scientist slots in a library, which made them quite over-powered!
     
  12. leif erikson

    leif erikson Game of the Month Fanatic Administrator Supporter GOTM Staff

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2003
    Messages:
    26,877
    Location:
    Plymouth, MA
    Please do. :thumbsup:

    I checked the save and looks to me like we hired an Artist? :)

    Yes, a skip would also be fine. Could be in the basement for a while, playing. :lol:
     
  13. ainwood

    ainwood Consultant. Administrator

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2001
    Messages:
    30,078
    Any objections to me getting after it straight away? Any suggestions?
     
  14. mad-bax

    mad-bax Deity GOTM Staff

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2003
    Messages:
    5,229
    No ainwood - no objections. Go for it.

    Space will be shocked at the progress when she gets back.
     
  15. AlanH

    AlanH Mac addict, php monkey Moderator Hall of Fame Staff Supporter GOTM Staff

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2003
    Messages:
    29,317
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    England
    I think that artist was there all through my turn set. I assumed it was a consequence of the Hanging Gardens, which gives "1 Great Artist Point".

    As far as I can tell, we have all our citizens working tiles, so there are no specialists.

    Yeah! Go for it, ainwood. It seems to me we should have as our mid-term objective the annexation of France, and settlement of the rest of the south, but I don't know much about this game yet. Lesson 1 was how to survive a war as a defender. I haven't seen how you take it to the enemy yet.

    There are some happy pills around - French wines and dyes, spices ... We just need to obtain them, one way or another :)
     
  16. leif erikson

    leif erikson Game of the Month Fanatic Administrator Supporter GOTM Staff

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2003
    Messages:
    26,877
    Location:
    Plymouth, MA
    Ah yes, forgot about that. :blush:

    :thanx:
     
  17. ainwood

    ainwood Consultant. Administrator

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2001
    Messages:
    30,078
    Initial thoughts:
    OK - so we will try to balance growth & science vs warmongering and getting payback on Nappy. And Alex. And then showing Cathy not to mess with us. Anyway - think that the hard work has been done by Ted & Alan, so this will be a consolidation turnset. Did you know we are a couple of kills away from a great general?

    We currently have +24 BPT, 48 gold, +5 GPT, +2 happy and 251/465 culture at 14CPT.

    A key current consideration is happiness. We will hit the happiness cap (0 happy) in ~ 4 turns, due to new citizens in MBR and TK. We will go into unhappiness a couple of turns later when SS also gains a citizen. So... what to do? First point is that when unhappiness is -1 to -9, growth is greatly reduced (cities producing a food surplus lose 75% of it), but there are no other penalties. Therefore, while it greatly constrains further growth, slipping slightly negative, in of itself, is not the worst thing in the world. If it gets to -10 (or worse), then you can no longer build settlers (or settle new cities with existing settlers), cities get -50% production penalty, and units fight as a -33% penalty. On the basis of all of this, going -ve unhappiness will essentially halt growth in TK and SS, while MBR will grow slowly. We therefore have 3 more citizens that we can add. It is pretty much into micro-management territory, but we can choose where we will get the most benefit from these three - adding extra food is of little benefit, so we should consider where we get the most commerce and/or production.

    Ted's Keep will add another tile due to culture expansion in 3 turns, but it has no hills (and won't get one next expansion), and no commerce resources. i.e. extra citizens in TK will add, at best one hammer and one commerce. But these benefits can be realised now by reassignment of existing citizens. As such, adding a citizen here is of little use, so I change citizens around here to maximise commerce and production, at the expense of food. In reality, this makes bugger all difference, shaving two turns off the catapult, and delaying the growth by two turns. In contrast, additional citizens in SS and MBR will be much more productive. In MBR, we still want to grow as quick as possible, as well as getting production as quick as possible. I therefore change so that we grow in two turns, yet get our marketplace in 5. In Space Station, we'll grow in 7 turns, and get a library in 4. When some workers complete in each city, I'll revisit.

    We do need to look at how the happiness cap can be increased. At present, we can build a circus in TK (13 turns) for +2 happiness. And that is all we can do with city improvements. We are 16 turns away from a social policy, but there are no immediate policies that will give us significant happiness (aristocracy gives +1 for every 10 citizens). Research wise, I had recommended Civil Service, as it helps growth. However, this is not much use to us for happiness. Current options are Calendar (which will allow stone works which can provide production and happiness bonuses in SS and MBR), Construction which allows colosseums, optics (which we will want for growth soon), and horseback riding. I therefore switch to calendar (2 turns). Good thing is that the 12 beakers for civil service are actually carry-over beakers, so get transferred straight across.

    IBT: Greek archer hits our CA for 3 damage.
    Turn 91 600 BC
    Archer bombards greek archer, and we get a great general in MBR> i move it towards teh Greek front lines. Chariot archer finishes-off the greek archer. Sword to the north starts to return to our lands. Send spear near SS to the east to be on-watch - nappy is sending a stream of archers towards the NW.
    Workers complete quarry on stone in MBR. Change so we will get a citizen next turn. Worker off to build another mine to the NW of the city.

    IBT:
    Alex asks for peace - even deal. I agree. Alex enters the medieval era, and we learn calendar. We gain another citizen in MBR - happiness still at +2 (Monarchy benefit rounds up, so the 9th citizen gives us an addition -1 unhappy bonus).

    Turn 92, 575BC
    Change citizens at MBR to give us marketplace in two turns (albeit at +0 GPT). Workers complete farm in MBR, and I send them to finish mine on iron in SS. Sword to teh north is going scouting in Cathy's lands.
    Choose optics - we can get it quickly, and will ultimate help MBR grow.

    IBT: Cathy makes peace with Nappy.
    Turn 93: 550 BC:
    Very little

    IBT: Unknown player enters medieval era.
    Turn 94, 525 BC.
    Complete marketplace in MBR, and are now at +5 GPT, with heavy production focus. I choose stone works, and reorganise such that we get it in 5 turn at +11 GPT.
    Complete min in Space Station. manage citizens so both SS and TK grow next turn.

    IBT: Nothing
    Turn 95, 500BC
    TK and SS both grow, setting overall happiness back to 0. I modify TK for production, and it won't grow for another 28 or so turns.

    IBT: Peace treaty with Nappy ends, as does declaration of friendship with Cathy. A barb camp pops up near capetown, and they are uneasy about it. Greta Litghhouse is BIAFAL, and Greece announces they are protecting monaco. We learn optics, and complete a library in SS. We complete another iron mine, and now have +9 iron.

    Turn 96, 475 BC:
    Start catapult in SS. Choose Civil Service as next tech - we're now at 30 BPT, so it takes 10 turns.

    IBT: Nappy enters the medieval era, and alex completes the great wall.
    Turn 97, 450 BC:
    Our sword sees that the greeks are assaulting moscow (but will lose). They have puppetted novgorod. I start clearing jungle on bananas with a view to building a plantation, and start a new road on the way to Ted's keep, so that we don't have to cross the damned river every time we move there!
    Cathy doesn't want to renew our friendship. For 105 gold and 6 GPT, she will give us silver. I decline for now - we're OK for happiness for a few turns yet.
    I send a sword and a spear off towards a barb camp near venice.

    IBT: Nothing
    Turn 98, 425 BC
    TK completes catapult, starts sword. Move sword from MBR to SS.

    IBT: Nothing
    Turn 99, 400 BC
    Complete stoneworks in MBR, start on sword. Find that governer had appointed a great merchant! 5 turns wasted production! Damn. Micromanage such that we get a sword in 5, grow in 3. Change SS to slow down growth - if we get next two citizens in MBR, then we can still do that and remain happy. Catapult in 4 turns.

    IBT: Complete road.
    Turn 100:
    Move worker to road on other side of river - it can remove it to save us maintenance.

    Summary:
    Science: per turn: 30, currently researching civil service, with 6 turns to go.
    Gold: 154 in treasury, +5 / turn. Units are costing 1.4 / turn, and we will produce another 2 units in the next 3 turns.
    Army: 3 archers, 1 chariot archer, 1 trireme, 1 great general, 2 spears, 4 swords, 1 catapult. Will get another catapult in 3 turns, another sword in 4. We are actually top tanked in soldiers via the demographics.
    Culture - we get another policy in 5 turns. We are at +1 happy, with another citizen to be added in MBR in two turns. I figure that we can then add an 11th citizen there and still remain +0 on happiness due to Monarchy social policy. Make sure it is added there before other cities.
    For 140 gold, and 4 / turn, we can get silver from Cathy, but this will essentially prevent us making any more units. I don't recommend it.
    I am actually a bit concerned about Alex. He is pummelling Cathy, and has already captured Novgorod (securing iron), and now has quite an empire. His war is slow and painful (we have a sword up there keeping an eye on things, and it is largely a stale-mate around moscow - but it is archers and warriors for cathy vs phalanxs and catapults for Alex. Once that war is over, he may consolidate or look our way. We probably have time to mobilise on Nappy now, and in a few turns will be strong enough to do it (will take some time to move our units that way - we should start now). But we may want to finish that war quickly, such that we can go and peg back alex a bit.

    I was hoping to build a National College. This requires a library in TK, which will take a while (11 turns), as we can't afford to buy it. I looked at options to sell resources to others to raise the cash, but no go. I should have thought about this earlier, and cancelled the catapult building there, and changed to a library. We actually need a couple of decent production tiles in that city - perhaps should buy a hill tile.




    Edit: Once we get a bit more happiness, don't forget to build workboats and a lighthouse in MBR. This will increase food and ultimately commerce & science.
     

    Attached Files:

  18. a space oddity

    a space oddity Deity GOTM Staff

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2001
    Messages:
    5,170
    Location:
    Between yesterday and tomorrow
    Hi guys, I'm back! Looks like you all did great. :D

    Today I am off to celebrate my father's 86th birthday at his place on the lovely Schouwen-Duiveland (try saying that... :mischief: ), but tonight I will check out all the action in detail. Looking forward to it!
     
  19. AlanH

    AlanH Mac addict, php monkey Moderator Hall of Fame Staff Supporter GOTM Staff

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2003
    Messages:
    29,317
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    England
    Good work ainwood. Your MM skills look awesome!

    Sorry about the cat in TK. I guess I was trying to take advantage of the Barracks as soon as it was built, but I should have started a Library.

    I think leif decided on a skip. If so, it's Space up next! Welcome back, Space :D
     
  20. Optional

    Optional Deity

    Joined:
    May 22, 2007
    Messages:
    2,935
    Location:
    It Dockumer Lokaeltsje
    lurker's comment: Don't forget that Space Station also qualifies for a Stone Works.

    Continents is in my opinion the toughest map type; less trading options than on Pangaea, but you need the same amount of military. On archipelago type maps the other civs you meet are much friendlier due to less border conflicts.

    I would have sold some of that iron, since you appear to be playing peacefully. I would need to check the vanilla stats, but I believe pikemen are about as good as swords.
    Incase a civ attacks you with units that are built with iron you sold them, they get a 'missing resource penalty'. Even if they lack just one iron, all their iron units get a 50% penalty to strength until this deficit ends.
     

Share This Page