Space 5 - Old hands can be newbs too, getting back in the game
- Thread starter a space oddity
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I'm afraid C-S's are gold suckers in vanilla, not worth too much unless you have gold to spend. Problem we have here is that Alex has a special deal in his UA towards CS's, so he can turn them against us.
If we take out a CS, then future relations with CS's will be more difficult, especially if we raze them. This is a game to learn, so guess we could take one out and see the result...
If we take out a CS, then future relations with CS's will be more difficult, especially if we raze them. This is a game to learn, so guess we could take one out and see the result...
Optional
Deity
lurker's comment: I've mentioned it before, but there's really a huge difference between the CS's in Vanilla and after (not so much between Gods & Kings and Brave New World).
In Vanilla money is almost the only way to wow those CS's, with Gods & Kings came a lot more different means; they would ask you to generate the most culture, the most science or the most faith...
Asking for roads, resources or wonders was already going on in Vanilla. The reason you don't see that in this game much is because you were unlucky and got mainly hostile civs on your continent. They often just want to see each other eliminated and will not ask you for anything else but that. From Gods & Kings onwards CS's will also often have multiple quests going on at the same time, and the quest to kill another CS got completely removed from the game - they will only ask you to bully another civ, and bullying means extorting some money or a worker from them, for which you need some military presence. And if you don't do that they will cancel this quest at some stage, instead of hanging on to it for the rest of the game.
But you're stuck here with the Vanilla mechanics, and especially with so many hostile CS's that's a bummer.
Still, a CS on your side (that's allied, not just friends) can make a big difference, especially in a war. Depending on the placement of the CS, it can put your opponent into a 2-front war, swinging a battle in your favour. The opposite - your opponent allying the civ and putting you in a 2-front war can be really nasty on higher levels. CS's often are resilient fighters.
You cannot raze a CS, just like you cannot raze a capital. Competely eliminating a civ gave quite a big diplo penalty in Vanilla and Gods & Kings (in Brave New World the elimination penalty got removed, instead every town you take now increases your warmonger status). Taking a CS counts as the same thing as completely eliminating a civ. It's not normally something you do in a science game.
In Vanilla money is almost the only way to wow those CS's, with Gods & Kings came a lot more different means; they would ask you to generate the most culture, the most science or the most faith...
Asking for roads, resources or wonders was already going on in Vanilla. The reason you don't see that in this game much is because you were unlucky and got mainly hostile civs on your continent. They often just want to see each other eliminated and will not ask you for anything else but that. From Gods & Kings onwards CS's will also often have multiple quests going on at the same time, and the quest to kill another CS got completely removed from the game - they will only ask you to bully another civ, and bullying means extorting some money or a worker from them, for which you need some military presence. And if you don't do that they will cancel this quest at some stage, instead of hanging on to it for the rest of the game.
But you're stuck here with the Vanilla mechanics, and especially with so many hostile CS's that's a bummer.
Still, a CS on your side (that's allied, not just friends) can make a big difference, especially in a war. Depending on the placement of the CS, it can put your opponent into a 2-front war, swinging a battle in your favour. The opposite - your opponent allying the civ and putting you in a 2-front war can be really nasty on higher levels. CS's often are resilient fighters.
You cannot raze a CS, just like you cannot raze a capital. Competely eliminating a civ gave quite a big diplo penalty in Vanilla and Gods & Kings (in Brave New World the elimination penalty got removed, instead every town you take now increases your warmonger status). Taking a CS counts as the same thing as completely eliminating a civ. It's not normally something you do in a science game.
If we take out a CS, then future relations with CS's will be more difficult, especially if we raze them. This is a game to learn, so guess we could take one out and see the result...
I wasn't suggesting razing one, since that wouldn't gain us their luxury unless we rebuild. And I think Optional is saying we can't raze them anyway.
But, since you re telling me that good relations with CS's are a waste of time in vanilla, I'm not sure I understand the problem with beating one up.
Eventually, I hope we have more gold available as the game progresses and we might need better relations later, especially if we do not have aluminum or coal.
@Optional - Is it a vanilla rule that you cannot raze a capital or a CS. Seems to me I have razed a capital before, somewhere...
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Pre-Flight:
We are +1 Happy. Ted’s Keep is one turn from a Colosseum, but also one turn from growing. Space Station is also one turn from growing, as is ainwood’s Tor. MBR and Leif Spring’s are two turns from growing. So… we are going to hit the happiness cap pretty soon. Arguably we should prioritise adding citizens to cities we control. With the Colosseum, we can effectively add 4 citizens (+1 now, +2 for Colosseum, +1 before we actually go negative) before the food penalty hits. We can’t do much about the puppets, which will take two of these in the next two turns.
I decide to constrain Ted’s Keep, such that Space Station and MBR are the two that get the growth (better incremental tiles). Note that the governer is a pain in the arse… you change citizen assignments, and exit the city, and he changes them back again at the end of the turn. So you have to lock all tiles…
I change Space Station such that it still grows next turn (just), but production increases to 12 hpt. MBR needs 29 food in the next two turns to grow, and is currently at +25 (with 11 hammers, 54 gold). I get it to 16 / 21 / 51.
Pity Alan’s Apple can’t buy the adjacent gold tile, but I do buy a hill in Ted’s keep. It has another hill unimproved (which I will sort as soon as we have a spare worker).
No-one wants to trade anything that gives us a net gain, so I don’t bother.
Turn 141, 620 AD.
Ainwood’s TOR grows, as does space station. Ted’s keep completes a Colosseum, so we are still at +1 happiness. France is moving escorted settlers north-west.
Production is +10 in Ted’s Keep.I start a university. I check demographics, and find we are now fifth in military size, so start a swordsman. I maximise production in Space Station, and we’ll get our university in 2 turns.
Our peace treaty expires next turn, so I halt the movement of our troops away from Greece, and move them back towards him….
IBT
Cape Town and Alex are no longer allies. Leif Springs and MBR grow, so we are -1 happy. The National college completes, increasing science to +74 (from +53) Nice! I start a university there (9 turns).
Turn 142
We are now three turns from Astronomy.
You know… a settler could grab some spices to the south of MBR!
IBT:
Peace treaty expires, as does pearls and open borders to Cathy. Space Station completes a university – science only moves to +77.
Turn 143, 660 AD:
I renegotiate with Cathy. I get silks for pearls and 150 gold. After giving her the gold, she has enough for a research agreement, which I duly propose and seal. Not sure if it is the best I could have got, but until we meet other civs…. We are +37 GPT, so I see it as 4 turns backward for the silk, and a further 7 for the research agreement (in terms of our treasury balance), which is acceptable. I am aiming to get us to ~600 (to buy a university in Ted’s Keep) when MBR complete its uni. That is in 7 turns… so not balanced, but anyway.
IBT:
Not much.
Turn 144, 680 AD.
I buy another tile in Ted’s Keep and start mining it.
IBT:
We complete astronomy.
Turn 145, 700 AD
I select Horseback riding – one turn. Will give a production bonus with a stable, particularly to Ted’s Keep (as mentioned by Optional).
I change MBR to a production focus. Delays growth, but want to complete University ASAP, so can get on to a caravel.
IBT:
Interesting… Nappy declare on Catherine. We complete HBR.
Turn 146, 720 AD.
I decide on metal casting. May seem a bit of a strange decision, but it opens up the workshop & forge, and more importantly opens-up access to steel.
IBT:
An unmet player enters the renaissance era.
Turn 147, 740 AD.
Space station sword => sword.
IBT:
Greece & France sign a research agreement. MBR completes a University – science is now at 89.
Turn 148, 760 AD.
Start caravel in MBR – 4 turns.
IBT
Complete sword in Ted’s Keep. We’ve got ourselves back to 4th in military. Start a stable (for a 30% production increase!)
IBT:
We complete metal casting.
Turn 150:
I select Steel, but that can obviously be changed.
Where are we at?
I have played it pretty conservatively. I’ve tried to increase our base production (particularly in Ted’s keep, which I have increased to +14 / turn, and will increase further to +17 in 6 turns when the stable completes). Happiness is +3, although 5 of that is due to my deal with Catherine, so has an expiration date. Hopefully at that time we will have met some other civs, and traded for something.
Science-wise, we are at +89. We are second on literacy overall.
I am rebuilding our army, albeit one that will be obsolete when we get to steel. I chose swords to upgrade, noting that it is an expensive business. A decision to be made (longswords would allow us to slice-up our current opponents pretty easily). Venice already has longswords (which means other civs (at least 2, I think) have steel as a tech. Must be the other continent, but we are second on literacy, so perhaps only one civ needs steel, or some civs bee-lined. We are 4th on military.
Our financials are OK. We are 458 gold, at +33 / turn. We’ll have enough cash to buy a university in Ted’s Keep in seven turns, which would open-up Oxford for us. Alternatively, now that TK has decent production we can build one after the stables (6 turns for stables, another 9 or 10 for the university). We are 3rd on GNP.
The Caravel in MBR is 2 turns away. I suggest we actually delete the trireme, but I’ll let someone else do that (will give us +2 GPT in saved maintenance).
Something that we should give serious consideration to is settling some more cities ourselves. A site to the south of MBR will give us spices; others more pearls for foreign trade. Worth considering. Balance re number of universities (and we can actually build circus maximus, by the way, as we have colosseums in all our cities)
In terms of our puppets, Alan’s Apple and Leif Springs are building mints. I have a worker on auto-move towards Leif Springs, and we may (should) send more to improve it. Ainwood’s tor has too much food and not enough production. Will suck-up our happiness surplus a bit too quickly.
Work boats in MBR for the fish (2-of) should not be forgotten.
As a final thought, probably worth re-exploring our continent. France sent settlers NW. What did they do?
We are +1 Happy. Ted’s Keep is one turn from a Colosseum, but also one turn from growing. Space Station is also one turn from growing, as is ainwood’s Tor. MBR and Leif Spring’s are two turns from growing. So… we are going to hit the happiness cap pretty soon. Arguably we should prioritise adding citizens to cities we control. With the Colosseum, we can effectively add 4 citizens (+1 now, +2 for Colosseum, +1 before we actually go negative) before the food penalty hits. We can’t do much about the puppets, which will take two of these in the next two turns.
I decide to constrain Ted’s Keep, such that Space Station and MBR are the two that get the growth (better incremental tiles). Note that the governer is a pain in the arse… you change citizen assignments, and exit the city, and he changes them back again at the end of the turn. So you have to lock all tiles…
I change Space Station such that it still grows next turn (just), but production increases to 12 hpt. MBR needs 29 food in the next two turns to grow, and is currently at +25 (with 11 hammers, 54 gold). I get it to 16 / 21 / 51.
Pity Alan’s Apple can’t buy the adjacent gold tile, but I do buy a hill in Ted’s keep. It has another hill unimproved (which I will sort as soon as we have a spare worker).
No-one wants to trade anything that gives us a net gain, so I don’t bother.
Turn 141, 620 AD.
Ainwood’s TOR grows, as does space station. Ted’s keep completes a Colosseum, so we are still at +1 happiness. France is moving escorted settlers north-west.
Production is +10 in Ted’s Keep.
Our peace treaty expires next turn, so I halt the movement of our troops away from Greece, and move them back towards him….
IBT
Cape Town and Alex are no longer allies. Leif Springs and MBR grow, so we are -1 happy. The National college completes, increasing science to +74 (from +53) Nice! I start a university there (9 turns).
Turn 142
We are now three turns from Astronomy.
You know… a settler could grab some spices to the south of MBR!
IBT:
Peace treaty expires, as does pearls and open borders to Cathy. Space Station completes a university – science only moves to +77.
Turn 143, 660 AD:
I renegotiate with Cathy. I get silks for pearls and 150 gold. After giving her the gold, she has enough for a research agreement, which I duly propose and seal. Not sure if it is the best I could have got, but until we meet other civs…. We are +37 GPT, so I see it as 4 turns backward for the silk, and a further 7 for the research agreement (in terms of our treasury balance), which is acceptable. I am aiming to get us to ~600 (to buy a university in Ted’s Keep) when MBR complete its uni. That is in 7 turns… so not balanced, but anyway.
IBT:
Not much.
Turn 144, 680 AD.
I buy another tile in Ted’s Keep and start mining it.
IBT:
We complete astronomy.
Turn 145, 700 AD
I select Horseback riding – one turn. Will give a production bonus with a stable, particularly to Ted’s Keep (as mentioned by Optional).
I change MBR to a production focus. Delays growth, but want to complete University ASAP, so can get on to a caravel.
IBT:
Interesting… Nappy declare on Catherine. We complete HBR.
Turn 146, 720 AD.
I decide on metal casting. May seem a bit of a strange decision, but it opens up the workshop & forge, and more importantly opens-up access to steel.
IBT:
An unmet player enters the renaissance era.
Turn 147, 740 AD.
Space station sword => sword.
IBT:
Greece & France sign a research agreement. MBR completes a University – science is now at 89.
Turn 148, 760 AD.
Start caravel in MBR – 4 turns.
IBT
Complete sword in Ted’s Keep. We’ve got ourselves back to 4th in military. Start a stable (for a 30% production increase!)
IBT:
We complete metal casting.
Turn 150:
I select Steel, but that can obviously be changed.
Where are we at?
I have played it pretty conservatively. I’ve tried to increase our base production (particularly in Ted’s keep, which I have increased to +14 / turn, and will increase further to +17 in 6 turns when the stable completes). Happiness is +3, although 5 of that is due to my deal with Catherine, so has an expiration date. Hopefully at that time we will have met some other civs, and traded for something.
Science-wise, we are at +89. We are second on literacy overall.
I am rebuilding our army, albeit one that will be obsolete when we get to steel. I chose swords to upgrade, noting that it is an expensive business. A decision to be made (longswords would allow us to slice-up our current opponents pretty easily). Venice already has longswords (which means other civs (at least 2, I think) have steel as a tech. Must be the other continent, but we are second on literacy, so perhaps only one civ needs steel, or some civs bee-lined. We are 4th on military.
Our financials are OK. We are 458 gold, at +33 / turn. We’ll have enough cash to buy a university in Ted’s Keep in seven turns, which would open-up Oxford for us. Alternatively, now that TK has decent production we can build one after the stables (6 turns for stables, another 9 or 10 for the university). We are 3rd on GNP.
The Caravel in MBR is 2 turns away. I suggest we actually delete the trireme, but I’ll let someone else do that (will give us +2 GPT in saved maintenance).
Something that we should give serious consideration to is settling some more cities ourselves. A site to the south of MBR will give us spices; others more pearls for foreign trade. Worth considering. Balance re number of universities (and we can actually build circus maximus, by the way, as we have colosseums in all our cities)
In terms of our puppets, Alan’s Apple and Leif Springs are building mints. I have a worker on auto-move towards Leif Springs, and we may (should) send more to improve it. Ainwood’s tor has too much food and not enough production. Will suck-up our happiness surplus a bit too quickly.
Work boats in MBR for the fish (2-of) should not be forgotten.
As a final thought, probably worth re-exploring our continent. France sent settlers NW. What did they do?
ainwood. Think we are in a pretty good position to prepare for war while researching towards Scientific Theory and Public Schools. To get there, we need all the later Medieval military techs for Trebs, XBows and Knights. Gaining Steel first allows us Longswords.
Happy resources on our continent, that we do not yet have, include: Wine, Spices and Silk. Not enough to offset all the unhappiness from Alex, Nappy and Cathy's cities. But, enough to trade to other civs once we meet them. Nearby City-States have Dyes, with Horse (Tyre), Incense, plus Iron (Venice) and Sugar, plus Iron (Monaco). Think we should seek alliances with these states once we gain a bit more gold, and after we purchase the University in Ted's Keep.
With regard to Oxford, seems like timing it to complete when we are ready for Scientific Theory would be desirable, leaving us quite a bit of time to build military units to conquer. Just hope our Caravel soon finds friends abroad that will trade happy resources with us.
Just realized that Notre Dame became available with Education, thinking we should change to production focus in Space station and try to build Notre Dame for +10 happies, requires 10 turns. We also now have Porcelain Tower available, can build it in MB in 13 turns and should be done before completion of RA with Cathy.
Got it.
I haven't looked at the save yet, but it sounds like we're moving up in the world.
I like the idea of building Notre Dame, it should solve our main headache. Founding a city to grab the Spice sounds like a good idea too. I will post more thoughts after I've seen the save. Hopefully tomorrow morning. *cross fingers*
I haven't looked at the save yet, but it sounds like we're moving up in the world.
I like the idea of building Notre Dame, it should solve our main headache. Founding a city to grab the Spice sounds like a good idea too. I will post more thoughts after I've seen the save. Hopefully tomorrow morning. *cross fingers*
Sorry for the delay. I haven't forgotten but can't seem to find the time. I try to look at the save tonight, post thoughts and play tomorrow. If not, it'll be another week I'm afraid.
Not a problem. 
A lot to think about.
A lot to think about.
I'm afraid I do, MB. Please take it.
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Which Tuesday? 
Timing for Oxford will be impacted by whether we build another city or two. On balance, I think building another city in the south west is a good option, as we will soon be able to trade overseas, and grabbing as many resources as we can will help.
Longswords will give us a window to expand some more, but need to decide if this is aligned with the long term goal. Regardless, I think we need to remain focused on military for the next turn set or so as a deterant. Perhaps balance that with a couple of key buildings?
Timing for Oxford will be impacted by whether we build another city or two. On balance, I think building another city in the south west is a good option, as we will soon be able to trade overseas, and grabbing as many resources as we can will help.
Longswords will give us a window to expand some more, but need to decide if this is aligned with the long term goal. Regardless, I think we need to remain focused on military for the next turn set or so as a deterant. Perhaps balance that with a couple of key buildings?
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Pre-flight.
MBR has lots of improved tiles that are not worked and therefore will not build workboats on this turnset.
Caravel completes in 2 turns.
Can purchase a uni in Ted's keep in 6-7 turns so we have 4 or 5 turns to kill before Oxford can be started.
Micromanaged MBR to 35 production to get Hagia Sophia in 9 further turns. If we succeed we can buy the Porcelain Tower.
Settler required soon, but circus maximus and Oxford should be build first really, so a little patience required.
(most of this Leif and ainwood have already said - I'm just putting off hitting "next turn"
Disband trireme as per ainwoods recommendation. I agree that it is just a resource drain now.
IBT: marble trade with Catherine ends.
151-820AD:
No action
IBT: caravel completes in MBR
152-840AD:
Set production in MBR to Hagia Sophia. (I know it's a risk, but I want to try).
Send the caravel westwards.
IBT:
Himeji castle is built in a faraway land.
Swordsman completes in Space Station
153-860AD:
Start another sword in SS
Remember that I've forgotten to re-new the trade with Catherine.
Really sorry.
Trade marble and 8g for 7gpt.
Caravel continues west and spots coast.
IBT:
Alex appears to be getting a bit frisky and putting a lot of units around Ted's Keep.
May see some action after all.
154-880AD:
Coast turns out to be a small uninhabited island with a ruin.
The other continent is warring. An unmet civ has lost their capital city.
IBT:
Steel is researched
Cathy and Napoleon make up.
155-900AD:
meet consul Oda of Japan he is rich and has spare Gems and Cotton. He is going to be a handful - big and powerful relative to us.
He has horses and no iron, but does not value iron highly. Can't get a lux from him for a reasonable price.
He will enter into a research agreement. I decide against as we need Oxford - and if we get Hagia and therefore PT we get better value from an RA.
In the end no deals entered into I'm afraid.
I guess we want physics for Trebs so I switch research to Engineering (3 turns)
IBT:
Nothing happens
156-920AD:
Caravel starts counter clockwise exploration of new continent and discovers Eldorado
Our happiness is +2 ATM
Meet Ram of Siam.
He has 400g and lots of cotton. He is bigger and more powerful than us, but less so than Japan.
For the reasons given above I decide against trade.
IBT:
Japan and Siam go to war.
Teds Keep completes stable
157-940AD:
Teds Keep starts workshop. Toyed with granary (2 wheat) but we need hammers.
Purchased University in TK - Science now +96.
IBT:
Alex is tired of seeing my face. He'll pay for this in time. I'm not in the mood to be nice.
Engineering completes
158:-960AD:
Research set to physics
Meet Persia. They have little gold and no spare resources. I know how they feel. <sigh>
realise I made a with a worker and moved him off a hex before completing the improvement. I don't get this with BNW.
IBT
Japan and Persia are now at war.
Alans Apple has grown and our happiness is at 0. (Yikes).
We can get circus maximus in 10 turns so let's not panic.
159-980AD:
Caravel has to kill a barb galley. A little one sided - but I just knew I would see action.
IBT:
Nothing happens.
160-1000AD:
Quiet turn again.
I was so tempted to play another turn.
Hagia Sophia completes IBT (I hope). I think we should choose an engineer and build the Porcelain Tower with him. However, obviously worthy of some discussion.
I screwed up a few worker turns I'm afraid. They keep stopping and asking for orders before completing their improvement. This doesn't seem to happen in BNW and I got caught out twice.
Here is the save: I'll post a screenshot when I get a minute.
View attachment Space 5_Montezuma_0160 AD-1000.Civ5Save
MBR has lots of improved tiles that are not worked and therefore will not build workboats on this turnset.
Caravel completes in 2 turns.
Can purchase a uni in Ted's keep in 6-7 turns so we have 4 or 5 turns to kill before Oxford can be started.
Micromanaged MBR to 35 production to get Hagia Sophia in 9 further turns. If we succeed we can buy the Porcelain Tower.
Settler required soon, but circus maximus and Oxford should be build first really, so a little patience required.
(most of this Leif and ainwood have already said - I'm just putting off hitting "next turn"
Disband trireme as per ainwoods recommendation. I agree that it is just a resource drain now.
IBT: marble trade with Catherine ends.
151-820AD:
No action
IBT: caravel completes in MBR
152-840AD:
Set production in MBR to Hagia Sophia. (I know it's a risk, but I want to try).
Send the caravel westwards.
IBT:
Himeji castle is built in a faraway land.
Swordsman completes in Space Station
153-860AD:
Start another sword in SS
Remember that I've forgotten to re-new the trade with Catherine.
Really sorry.Trade marble and 8g for 7gpt.
Caravel continues west and spots coast.
IBT:
Alex appears to be getting a bit frisky and putting a lot of units around Ted's Keep.
May see some action after all.
154-880AD:
Coast turns out to be a small uninhabited island with a ruin.
The other continent is warring. An unmet civ has lost their capital city.
IBT:
Steel is researched
Cathy and Napoleon make up.
155-900AD:
meet consul Oda of Japan he is rich and has spare Gems and Cotton. He is going to be a handful - big and powerful relative to us.
He has horses and no iron, but does not value iron highly. Can't get a lux from him for a reasonable price.
He will enter into a research agreement. I decide against as we need Oxford - and if we get Hagia and therefore PT we get better value from an RA.
In the end no deals entered into I'm afraid.
I guess we want physics for Trebs so I switch research to Engineering (3 turns)
IBT:
Nothing happens
156-920AD:
Caravel starts counter clockwise exploration of new continent and discovers Eldorado
Our happiness is +2 ATM
Meet Ram of Siam.
He has 400g and lots of cotton. He is bigger and more powerful than us, but less so than Japan.
For the reasons given above I decide against trade.
IBT:
Japan and Siam go to war.
Teds Keep completes stable
157-940AD:
Teds Keep starts workshop. Toyed with granary (2 wheat) but we need hammers.
Purchased University in TK - Science now +96.
IBT:
Alex is tired of seeing my face. He'll pay for this in time. I'm not in the mood to be nice.
Engineering completes
158:-960AD:
Research set to physics
Meet Persia. They have little gold and no spare resources. I know how they feel. <sigh>
realise I made a
with a worker and moved him off a hex before completing the improvement. I don't get this with BNW.IBT
Japan and Persia are now at war.
Alans Apple has grown and our happiness is at 0. (Yikes).
We can get circus maximus in 10 turns so let's not panic.
159-980AD:
Caravel has to kill a barb galley. A little one sided - but I just knew I would see action.
IBT:
Nothing happens.
160-1000AD:
Quiet turn again.
I was so tempted to play another turn.
Hagia Sophia completes IBT (I hope). I think we should choose an engineer and build the Porcelain Tower with him. However, obviously worthy of some discussion.
I screwed up a few worker turns I'm afraid. They keep stopping and asking for orders before completing their improvement. This doesn't seem to happen in BNW and I got caught out twice.
Here is the save: I'll post a screenshot when I get a minute.
View attachment Space 5_Montezuma_0160 AD-1000.Civ5Save
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Great person + 25% GP generation in all cities.
Other than Porcelain Tower we can build Notre Dame for +10 happy faces. I thought that there may be an argument for that option, particularly as we have nothing to trade with our new neighbours. We can build a new city without issues if we're +10 happy.
I can't see an argument for selecting anything other than an engineer unless someone can explain it to me.
Other than Porcelain Tower we can build Notre Dame for +10 happy faces. I thought that there may be an argument for that option, particularly as we have nothing to trade with our new neighbours. We can build a new city without issues if we're +10 happy.
I can't see an argument for selecting anything other than an engineer unless someone can explain it to me.
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