Space 5 - Old hands can be newbs too, getting back in the game

[ainwood]

Initial thoughts & suggestions:

Technology
5 turns from mathematics. I note that we will get horses in our border when we settle the next city. We don't have iron working (reveal iron), nor bronze working (build spearmen - and Nappy has horses; as well as barracks). Suggestion from Leif is to go for masonry, which gives us quarries (nice production boost in both our existing cities, if we have the population to work the tiles).

Social Policies
Next social policy in 3 turns. We have 3 workers, so don't think another worker is an urgent priority. Given we are at our happiness cap (until our trade deal expires), that this will get worse with our next city and that our cash flow is at a slight negative, I would recommend Monarchy (+3 happiness, +3 gold on current capital size).

Production
Granary in Space Station, Trireme in MBR. I would love to get a library in MBR at some point. However, I note that we aren't exactly flush with units. I might see how the immediate battles go, and if they go well, build infrastructure.

Settling
Suggestion was settling current settler 1 tile NE. I actually think that either the current tile (gives us horses immediately) or the forest 1 tile NW is better, as it gives us earlier access to cows and hills to the south (production focus). NW also might push capetown a bit. However, if we want to buy a tile or two, then 1 NE is fine.

Macro
While space race is our goal, we don't have a high food start, and may also find happiness a problem in building up. I am more concerned that we're being hemmed-in by France, Russia and, to some extent, Greece. I think that we need to destroy France relatively early, and need a strategy for that (and I half expect that Russia will attack us early, too). Overall, I think we should push for an early military expansion with the goal of taking Paris. We need iron to get catapults, and before this, bronze working to get barracks.

I therefore suggest that we go bronze working -> iron working as the next two.
We get trireme then a library at MBR. SS can continue on a granary (although will take a long time). On reflection, the next city 1 tile to the NE is a good long-term location, and I suggest that initially looks to go military, at least to deter Cathy and help with preparations against Nappy, noting that long-term is might be a great GP or science center.

Thoughts?

 

[leif erikson]

The recommendation for Masonry next was based upon fighting Nappy off and continuing to build our infrastructure, not only for production boost but also for happiness from Marble.

Taking out Nappy early, I agree BW next. Although I think we can take Nappy on with 3 Archers, 3 Cats (we get them with Math) and a couple of Spears and Jaguars? Not sure we should wait for Iron and Swords?

Like Monarchy next.

Agree with your macro view.

Do we want to try to build Hanging Gardens to get the food bonus in the capital? Perhaps we should wait to decide until we see how the war goes, if we want to change to attack Nappy early and how long it might take to build? Hanging Garden is 250 hammers, that is a lot of units.

 

[ainwood]

remember: Catapults require iron, as well as mathematics.

 

[leif erikson]

remember: Catapults require iron, as well as mathematics.

Here I am playing by G&K rules again.

 

[ainwood]

Yeah.... I know! I think this is my first vanilla game in ~3 years? Good point on happiness from Marble though.

 

[mad-bax]

We are already at war with France. Do we have to remain at war whilst we research and build all this stuff, or can we make peace after killing a couple of units? If we agree peace, how long before we can declare again?

Also, remember there is one movement left in the settler. He can go to either of the tiles you mention before you press 'next turn'.

I like your analysis ainwood but don't have the knowledge to comment on it much. Overall though I do feel we are hemmed in, and the power value of our available tiles is low. France has some good tiles and is the weakest of our neighbours and so I favour taking them on early. It appears to me that we are short of units. I would buy an archer and build a couple of Jaguars out of MBR - and maybe cats if we have iron.

SS still has 50 turns to go for the granary. I would micromanage for hammers by working the southern hill and switch to archer. We can switch back easily enough without granary hammers decaying.

 

[leif erikson]

We are already at war with France. Do we have to remain at war whilst we research and build all this stuff, or can we make peace after killing a couple of units? If we agree peace, how long before we can declare again?

Can't make peace until he is ready to do so. We have to hurt him enough to make him want to sue for peace. He declared on us.

He is attacking with no siege nor archer units, so should be able to be defeated quite easily. Think the best thing to do is receive his attack, kill as many units as possible and then go on the offensive, but without Cats, not so sure that is really good. Have seen it done in GOTM with Archers, but we will need quite a few, perhaps 6 to 7.

Also, remember there is one movement left in the settler. He can go to either of the tiles you mention before you press 'next turn'.

Left him that way intentionally because in his spot he is protected by the Jag and Archer. Next turn he can move 1 hex and settle on the same turn. To move him now removes some of his protection and he cannot settle. The city can defend itself, but a Settler is vulnerable.

I like your analysis ainwood but don't have the knowledge to comment on it much. Overall though I do feel we are hemmed in, and the power value of our available tiles is low. France has some good tiles and is the weakest of our neighbours and so I favour taking them on early. It appears to me that we are short of units. I would buy an archer and build a couple of Jaguars out of MBR - and maybe cats if we have iron.

You should play around a bit with Civ5, you do not need as many units as in previous versions. The 1 unit per tile rle makes too many get in each other's way.

Wait until you go to attack a city and every tile in its radius has an enemy units on it.

 

[ainwood]

IBT:
French units basically retreat, as does the barb galley. Get message that we are losing grasp on hanoi.

Turn 51, 1960 BC
Northern Archer bombards french warrior to 1 HP. Ditto for archer in Space Station to southern warrior. Note that I don't use Space Station to bombard that unit, because it can fire curther (hills aren't a problem for it). I use Space Station to bombard the middle warrior, but only knock 1 HP off it. Our Jaguar Warriors mop-up two of the french warriors.
Settler moves NE and founds Ted's Keep, which starts and archer. Unfortunately, this drops our happiness to -4. It also increases our policy costs. In hindsight, I should have waited a turn to settle...
MBR: Trireme => Library. Send Trireme after barb galley (south).

IBT:
Greece denounces us, and we are no longer friends with Hanoi. Barb galley attacks us. French withdraw some more.
Turn 52, 1920 BC:
Destroy barb galley. Move to chase french warrior. One Jag promtes to Drill, and attacks over jungle to severely damage warrior, allowing other to finish it off (both taking advantage of woodsmen promotion to double move).
Worker finishes road near MBR, and moves to continue roading. Worker finishes farm on wheat, and move it to help road to SS (trade route for cash).

IBT:
Alex taunts us about our unhappiness. He is now hostile. We get a new policy, and a unit promotion. An unmet player enters the classical era.
Turn 53: 1880 BC.
Move our units to heal, for now. Trireme heads north around the coast, and sees a barb camp with a worker captive. I select Monarchy, and our happiness improves to -1, and gold to -1.
I think the cows to the NE of MBR are buggy. Every turn, the worker activates, and no progress on a pasture. I give up, and move the worker towards TK, to pasture the horses.

IBT: Two french warrior move to flank our archer working its way home.
Turn 54: 1840.
Move trireme up coast. Move archers to help cover our archer. Worker to pasture.

IBT: Nappy wants peace. I agree - I am worried abour Alex, and would sooner prepare with seige units than continue the war now. He moves to 'friendly'. He also enters the classical era, as do we in completing mathematics.
Turn 55: 1800 BC
I choose bronze working (4 turns).
I move two archers towards TK, and another south to take out the barb annoying the city state. Other units heal. Trireme moves around teh coast and meets Dublin (irrational, militaristic with silks).

IBT: Complete trade route between SS and MBR.
Turn 56: 1760 BC.
Complete library in MBR. BW now in two turns. What to build next? Decide to go for Hanging Gardens....
Buy marble tile in SS, and move to build a quarry. Don't have masonry yet - D'OH!

IBT: Nothing.
Turn 57, 1720 BC
Capture a worker, and return it to Venice - we are now friends. We don't have enough gold to buy more friendship with them though. Silly move, in hindsight.
Trireme discovers the great barrier reef (two tiles), and we are now therefore +1 happiness.

IBT: Complete Bronze Working
Turn 58, 1680 BC:
Elect to start masonry - only 4 turns, and will give us marble & stone (happiness and production). Am sending a jag and an archer to clean-up a barb camp (will take a few turns to get there though).

IBT: Not much.
Turn 59, 1640 BC:
Very little.

IBT: Very little
Turn 60, 1600 BC - very little.

Current status:
Greece is hostile. Whales expires at the end of this turn, which will give us +4 happiness. Not sure if he will declare at this point (or demand whales?) France and cathy are friendly, and there is 4 turns left on our peace treaty with Nappy.
MBR is building the hanging gardens - quite a gamble, I think. 14 turns remain. If it gets it, then it will turn the city into a production powerhouse with all that additional food.
Ted's Keep is about to grow (in two turns), and will complete a pasture this turn, giving us horses. It is not on the trade network yet, and that could / shoudl be a priority. It is the logical focus for an attack from greece, so being able to mobilise units there would help, and it could also spit out a chariot archer. Note that greece loves spear-type units (Hoplite), so chariot archers need to run away. Space Station will grow next turn. I have workers building a farm and mining a hill - each will take ~3 more turns. Masonry is due in 2, so can then sort-out getting the marble connected. Suggest that we go for iron working after that, to find where the iron is (if any), and allow us to build cats and swordsmen. I think melee units are the way to go against these neighbours.
TK could be a good production hub - a balance between food and production if we get hills mined (will need to buy some tiles). A barracks there would help. Walls could be a good cheap investment if Alex gets any more aggressive.
I have a jag warrior and an archer working there way west to the barb camp. It has a worker in it.
The trireme is to the north exploring. I think exploration is the way to go, but you may want to bring it back to help take down the barb camp. It can be there in 3 turns - about the same as the Jag warrior.

 

[ainwood]

I think the cows to the NE of MBR are buggy. Every turn, the worker activates, and no progress on a pasture. I give up, and move the worker towards TK, to pasture the horses.

What I was seeing is that this was not telling me how many turns left to complete, and I had experienced this before. Reloaded the save afterwards, and pasture for one more turn, and it completed. Go figure....

 

[ainwood]

It appears to me that we are short of units. I would buy an archer and build a couple of Jaguars out of MBR - and maybe cats if we have iron.

I didn't post my thoughts on this before.

We're short of units for going on the offensive, but OK defensively (as per the demographics, we're not terrible!) The problem I see is that we're pretty poor commerce-wise, and although we can get trade routes by connecting cities, they don't give us much (and cost road maintenance). Trading posts are OK, but 1.) we don't have trapping, and 2.) they don't give that much gold anyway. We need markets etc, and we need rivers and, most of all, commerce resources.

Units in Civ5 are damned expensive to maintain (as are roads!) When I inherited the save, we were at -4 commerce / turn (partly due to barb galley), and units cost 0.89 GPT/unit. Purchasing an archer takes us to -5 GPT, our treasury to ~100, and reduces our income to -5 GPT. This means we have a credit crunch in ~20 turns.

Note that once the barb galley moves, and we go back to positive GPT, which means its not as bleak as I am perhaps portraying, but essentially I prefer to maintain a decent cash reserve to pay unit costs when I go on the offensive. Gold from sacking cities tends to keep you ~neutral on unit costs while actively expanding, but you do need an initial buffer.

Another point to all of this: At some point we need to grow our commerce base. The Colossus might help, but currency for marketplaces are a good idea.

 

[leif erikson]

Agree with all of this.

Part of our gold troubles lie with focus on Hanging Garden because we are not working commerce tiles around the capital. Marketplace with all those sea resources being worked by citizens would be very helpful.

Our military adviser tells us that Alex's army is about the same size as ours. The question is what units he has to attack with? We should probably build a Spear somewhere, just in case he shows up with some Companion Cavalry? However, Archer units will be our main defense.

See three main priorities for our development:
1. Getting Iron Working and locating a source of Iron.
2. Getting Currency and building a Marketplace in the capital.
3. Completing two more Work Boats for the Fish hexes and getting Optics and building a Lighthouse.

Then there is our defense...
Should Alex declare, building a Wall in Ted's Keep is probably a good idea.
Another Archer in the north would also help with a Spear to counterattack wounded units.

 

[mad-bax]

I might play in about 24 hours time. I haven't looked at the save yet.

I'm clear on research.
The MBR build will not complete on my turnset.
SS to build unit - not chariot archer
TK - walls then barracks
Kill barb camp for worker - don't use trireme to help.
Connect marble.

Just need some advice regarding social policy - Monarchy?

 

[Optional]

lurker's comment: Don't see just Alex as a danger. Catherine has a bigger military, so I would consider her a bigger danger just now. The fact she acts 'friendly' doesn't mean an awful lot. All leaders in Civ 5 have been given a value for 'deceptiveness' and Cathy's is quite high.

A common tactic on higher levels, where the AI has more units, is to ask the AI to go to war with each other. If at the moment you ask Cathy how much she wants for declaring on Alex it's 151 gold she wants for that. Alex is willing to declare on Cathy for pearls and 46(?) gold.
I don't know if I would do a deal like this just now, but what isn't an option is to build a wall in Ted's Keep when somebody declares; that'll simply take too long if it's still needing to be built from scratch. You'd need to buy it then, which costs 400 gold - that could be too much in your current situation.

I noticed the pasture on the cows is still not finished? The 'turns to complete' notifications are indeed buggy, also when there's an enemy unit in a range of 4 tiles a worker simply stops, and it's easy to think he has finished his job when he hasn't - the workers can be a bit of a nuisance.

 

[ainwood]

All leaders in Civ 5 have been given a value for 'deceptiveness' and Cathy's is quite high.

Agree, but in this case Alex is openly hostile. Remember that this is the vanilla version of the AI, too. I guess the point is that we can probably expect an attack from the north in the medium term, but regardless of who it is (I predict alex), the strategy is broadly similar. I don't favour buying them off for war, as diplomatically it requires us to "pick winners" from the long term perspective (plus there is no guarantee of a "real" war, and it might just cause both to mobilize to increase their army size, without actually fighting!)

I noticed the pasture on the cows is still not finished? The 'turns to complete' notifications are indeed buggy, also when there's an enemy unit in a range of 4 tiles a worker simply stops, and it's easy to think he has finished his job when he hasn't - the workers can be a bit of a nuisance.

The worker was activating even though there is nothing anywhere in sight, and (more telling), instead of getting a pop-up telling me 3 turns to go (or whatever), the popup was not giving any indication at all of turns remaining. I have seen this before (and even reported it as a bug before). Seems a reload fixed it.

 

[mad-bax]

I've played five turns for the moment and will finish them later this evening.

Should I trade away pearls and whales? I'm not at the moment as I'm not sure what we would buy.

Just need some advice regarding social policy - Monarchy?

IBT:
SS grows to pop 3
The whales deal with Greece ends
I get a message about now having a ranged unit??? Is the archer on the SW peninsula new?

1560BC:
The cows between TK and MBR don't show up as having a pasture, so I move the worker that has just finished the horse pasture to that tile.
I start to put the Archer and Jag together to clear the NW barb camp.
Trireme continues north
Alex will give us 160 gold for Whales and pearls
Napoleon 230 + 1gpt
Cathy will give silver. I'm not trading ATM.

IBT:
Learn Masonry
Hanoi wants Monaco destroyed
Teds' Keep Grows.

1520BC:
Set research to Iron Working
Start to walk archer towards space station.

IBT:
Trireme gets bombarded by barbarian galley
Dublin wants help with the barbs. Hopefully they'll get it.

1480BC:
Position units to take on Barb Camp.
Bombard Galley.
I'm having to remind the workers in SS to carry on with their tasks every turn. Can't seen any enemy units.
Start Quarry in SS
Finish Pasture in MBR/TK

IBT:
Trireme bombarded again and redlined - promoted to targetting 1
Vienna asks for help agains barbs. There really are a lot of barbs in this game.

1440BC:
Archer bombards camp - Fortify Jag as it cannot win.
Sink barb galley
complete mine in SS and move citizen onto it. Granary now in 6.

IBT:
Barb galley moves onto fish tile. First time I've seen a blockade.
Peace treaty with France expires

 

[ainwood]

Not sure if you are aware of how luxuries work, so if I'm explaining something you already know, the please forgive me!

Luxuries provide happiness on a fairly binary basis: if you have one under your control, you get the same happiness as if you have five under your control. Essentially, this means that you might as well trade away spare copies (with lots of caveats about losing some etc).

Happiness is important, as it is the main constraint on growth. The more surplus happiness you have, the bigger your cities can grow, and the higher production can be etc etc.

So... How does this help answer the question? With the pearls that we were trading expiring (or was that whales?) I presume out net happiness is positive again. Getting the marble connected will make it more positive. I can't recall, but think we have two pearls, one whale and soon to have one marble. The excess pearls can be traded (confirm that we have an excess). Not sure if the deals on the table are for both pearls AND whales. Trading for silver depends on whether we're trading a spare resource or not. If it is spare, then good idea (but be wary that we may exceed the happiness cap and have it expire - not too big a deal, but would want some sort of replacement resource in our sites). If it is for a resource that we have only one of, it is zero-sum for us, although helps our relationship with cathy. Might be a good move for her if she has more than one silver (and if I recall correctly, they don't trade resources they only have one of).

Not sure re social policies - I'll check the save a bit later.

 

[mad-bax]

IBT:
Catherine declares war on Napoleon.

1360BC:
Kill barb camp and take worker. Will walk back to MBR.
Trireme doesn't seem to be healing ?? Send him north.

IBT:
Promote archer to Barrage 1

1320BC:
Heal jag. Not much else going on.

IBT:
Learn Iron Working

1280BC:
There are 3 source of iron around SS - one inside the cultural boundary.
Greece and Russia also have iron. France does not appear to have quick access. None in their territory.
Research Currency
No other action.

IBT:
Greece announces it is protecting Vienna
Genoa wants Cape Town destroyed

1240BC:
Space station grows - set for production focus (same as I micromanaged it - I must be learning).
Empire goes to making -1 gpt.
TK Completes Archer - starts Barracks
Space station has marble.

IBT:
Nothing Happens

1200BC:
Granary completes in Space Station starts Archer - but please change if you want to.

End of Turnlog.


A fairly uneventful set of turns.

Space Station has iron. The worker that has just improved the quarry is in the city tile.
Pasture near Teds keep is one turn off.
The red-lined trireme has hit ice to the north. Would like to know how to heal him.
A worker and archer are stacked and walking back in the general direction of MBR.

The save and a picture of Space Station are attached below.
View attachment Space 5_0070 BC-1200.Civ5Save



M-B

Edit: ainwood I missed your post before playing the second half. We have two pearls, we are not working either. When we go to the trade screen it says we have 1 source to trade. We can't trade pearls with Cathy. I presume she already has them.

 

[ainwood]

No problem. Note that if you trade the resources, you still get the tile bonus from them.

Ships only heal in port. in friendly territory. The heal promotion is a good idea for them. You could try to bombard a barb camp to get another promotion, but if they build a trireme, you are toast!

Great re iron - this will help production wise as well as resources. How many iron are at each location (mouse over).

Overall - good turn set. Still on course for the HG, and some good steps forward on production. Cathy and Alex being at war with each other gives us a bit of breathing room, too.

 

[AlanH]

Well done, guys. This is proceeding far too quickly to be a Space SG!

 

[mad-bax]

Great re iron - this will help production wise as well as resources. How many iron are at each location (mouse over).
.

From north to south 6,2,6. The source in Venice is 6. Isn't it the case that there are two irons per hammer?