Space 5 - Old hands can be newbs too, getting back in the game

[mad-bax]

Yep, No. 3 on the list of excuses right after "I forgot to set my alarm" and just before "the dog ate my homework".

Lots of French units around, from what I remember, but I confess that I haven't looked at the save in nearly a week. Unfortunately I can't play until my Wednesday evening as I have a prior engagement tomorrow. (Hey, I get one night out a year...).

If anyone would like to remind me what I'm supposed to be doing in the meantime then I'd be quite grateful.

 

[a space oddity]

There is no rush! Remember this is one of my SGs.... (even if I haven't really played that much. ) Enjoy your night out!

edit: As for goals: I think we were taking the long route to space.

 

[leif erikson]

There are some recommendations in this post, and this one as well as this one.

Important points:
1. Make peace with Cape Town.
2. We need a solution to the French Trireme blockading Fanatica. 5-turns to a Caravel in M-B. if that is best? Could leave it to focus on ground units to take French cities.
3. There is a French Sword and a French Musketeer around Ted's Keep we have to watch. There is a Knight capable of killing the French Sword, perhaps next turn?
4. After Chemistry, and cannons , we should beeline for Scientific Theory and Public Schools to gte research moving.

Beyond that, think we should move out to attack Orleans, Troyes and then Paris. You will probably not get that done in your ten turns, but setting up forces to complete that mission for the next player is important.
See three Trebs, a bunch of XBows (I love them) and 4 or so Longswords. Should be enough to start. Probably need another Treb for Paris and you'll have to see what you lose. Save up some cash to upgrade Trebs to Cannons after taking a city or two.

Please keep an eye on Alex, he is a SOB...

Ramkhamhaeng has tons of cash (1332) and it would be nice to find something to give him so we could grab a bit of it.
Wouldn't give him any strategic resources though, you might need them.

Not sure what else except, good luck and I hope you enjoy your night out.

 

[mad-bax]

Turnlog

Pre-flight check... as if I'd dare..

190:1300AD
M-BR - Crossbow
Fanatica - I find a workboat so I put it on the Pearls (bought for 85g)

IBT: a lot of deals end.

191:1310AD
kill a french musket
Kill a french sword
build a fishing boat on the pearls
Pearls to Japan for Gems (+9 happy)
Pearls to Siam for 6gpt

IBT: Accept open borders with Japan

192:1320AD
Moving units around ready to attack Orleans.

IBT: Napoleon wants peace. Probably means he can kill a unit if we refuse.
Lets see.
Hanoi declares war on us. Hmmm..
Alex hurls insults

193:1330AD
Our knight steals 2 workers from Nappy in one turn.
More positioning. I know it smacks of procrastination but it's tricky.

IBT:
trebs are bombarded by Orleans and survive.
Cathy and Alex are in a proper fight now.

194:1340:
Begin bombardment of Orleans
Uncover a shed load of muskets in the process - eek! (I'm not that scared actually).
Kill a french general. Really? It should be harder than this.

IBT:
A french musket kills our crossbow. Hooray! A fight.
Alex denounces us. Hmmm... I don't want to divert units against him.
Cape Town declares war on us again.

195: 1350
Kill the offending musket
Capture another French worker
Red-line Orleans.
We are probably a trebuchet short of an army - a bit like being a pork pie short of a picnic.
MB-R finishes crossbow and starts workshop (yes really).

IBT:
4 French muskets descend on Orleans killing our Sword.

196:1360
We puppet Orleans and are now at 1 happy face.
We need to sort out these muskets before continuing to Paris anyway.
We'll have cannon next turn.
I fear for our units IBT

IBT:
Another crossbow get murdered and then...

O-M-G

Let's discuss. Refer to attached (slightly scary) image.

I haven't tested to see if we can get peace yet as I was going to stop for the day anyway.

Here is the save
View attachment Montezuma_0197 AD-1370.Civ5Save

Here is our situation...

 

[leif erikson]

Looks like a hornet's nest!

Will have to look at it this evening on my game system, laptop cannot handle it.

Got some serious fighting to do!

 

[mad-bax]

Well, I think I can probably take down the 3 closest muskets, but only if I don't upgrade the trebs this turn. If I can, and then somehow buy a turn to get the trebs upgraded, I can get a few more units to the scene of the crime. From there we can take on Paris. Risky and bloody, and how we are going to deal with happiness I have no clue.

Alternatively we can stop now and play peacefully. We're burning turns at war. Our infra is pretty pathetic for 200 turns in.

 

[AlanH]

Most of the wars we've fought have been declared on us, not by us, so I'm not sure peace is possible for very long on this continent unless we can subdue the other warmongers.

 

[a space oddity]

Although that's true, and its annoying not to have the initiative, the AI isn't that good that it really is hard to ward of their attacks. I think its worth a try to go the peaceful route from here.

 

[mad-bax]

Sorry, but I couldn't finish this evening and tomorrow night is out too I'm afraid. It'll be Saturday now.

I think I will have a go at the muskets on the first turn and depending how it goes go to the next turn at war or take peace immediately. I think France will take peace - we have taken a city, three workers and the kill count is 6-3 in our favour on my turns and more from ainwood. In BNW though it appears that if we ask for peace we will only get peace for peace - the opponent doesn't seem to chuck in any sweeteners.

I also think we should replace one or two puppets with annexes and build courthouses as this will improve happiness overall and allow us to dictate science infra in more cities.

 

[mad-bax]

Turnlog:

197:1370AD
Kill 3 french muskets. This leaves 5 muskets and a cannon to deal with and Orleans without a garrison.
Orleans will be retaken next turn, and even if we can take it back again I see no real prospect of taking Paris quickly. I'm not even sure why we would take it.

I decide to make peace with France and all the city states.

now aiming at population growth,

ainwoods Tor - finish crossbow, start granary
Research - Finish Chemistry, start fertilizer
Worker starts road to Orleans

There are several military build going on which I will allow to complete/continue as they are quite advanced
We have two great generals which can be used to start golden ages - do we want to do this?
We can purchase the Grand Mesa tile for 360g - do we want to do this?

198: 1380AD
Quiet turn. Just moved stuff around


199:1390AD
M-BR workshop - aqueduct
SS musket - forge

IBT: Quiet

200:1400AD
We can adopt a new policy.
Out boat continues it's journey clockwise around the second continent.

Since there are several decisions to be made here, I'll stop for discussion.


We need to decide:
Shall we buy Grand Mesa? - I vote yes.
Shall we burn a general fro a GA? - I vote yes.
Which policy shall we take? - I vote for rationalism opener.
Shall we allow military builds to complete? - I say yes.
Should we annexe any of our puppets to accelerate beaker production. - Agian I vote yes - but we need to work out how to get happy first.


On top of this we need to decide tech path and builds.

My view is that we need science buildings, gold producing buildings and growth buildings.

I think we should build granaries and aqueducts in all cities and buy education buildings. markets and banks can be built or bought depending on how much gold we have.

Anyhoo, lots to discuss.

Here is the save and a piccy.

View attachment Montezuma_0200 AD-1400.Civ5Save

 

[a space oddity]

Well done! I think you signed peace at the right moment. I also think we need to finish the mil builds, not only because they are advanced but also because we need to deter those war happy folks we share this continent with.

A GA should help getting the work on the cities done, so that gets my vote too.

Maybe we can improve our financial position and help diplo by signing a few deals with our former enemies.

 

[AlanH]

I've lost track. Am I up now? Is Ted on permanent skip?

 

[a space oddity]

I haven't seen Ted here for a long time. I hope everything is alright.

 

[mad-bax]

Yes Alan, I think you are up. Things are quite interesting now. We are behind the curve in science terms, but maybe we can get some research agreements up and running.
Also, we are at zero happy. We might have to buy a colloseum.

Would appreciate some input from the mentors at this point. {Gentle poke}.

 

[leif erikson]

Ok, had a look at the save and a couple of things.

We are at the happy cap and all our cities are set to food focus, so our production is in the tank. Should remove food focus and micromanage to balance production while leaving some growth.

We need some happiness. For example, to get Circus Maximus we need Colosseums in anwood's tor and Fanatica. Building a Bank in M-B wouldn't hurt either. We can trade 5 Iron plus 15 Gold for Cotton from Darius. We could also trade for Cotton with Ramkhamhaeng, but he wants way too much for it.

We need to keep building modern military units, a good job for Ted's Keep. Cannons and Muskets mostly, an occasional XBow.

ainwood's Tor needs a Colosseum and some micor for hammers.
Fanatoca needs a Colosseum as well, and also a Work Boat, perhaps build one in M-B? MM for some hammers.
Space needs some serious MM for hammers and could build some units as well. If we can fit it in, a Bank wouldn't hurt.

Do we go for war or for science production. For war, we need to research Rifling and/or Military Science (Cavalry). For science, we need to get to Scientific Theory for Public Schools.

We can pick a Social Policy, seems like it is time to open Rationalism?

As we have Porcelain Tower and may open Rationalism, should sign some Research Agreements. Can sign one now with Siam and Persia. We have one with Japan.

Probably more, but it is time for some

 

[mad-bax]

hmmm...

We switched to food focus on the turn we made peace with France. I really imagined that we would stop military builds for a while and get our population up and our gold up to buy educational establishments and RA's. Do you not think that growth is king except for science?

Obviously as various techs come in enabling particular science related buildings we can switch to production focus to get those that we can't buy up quickly.

I guess I disagree about the need to build more units. They just drain gold and delay infrastructure. I don't think more wars will help the cause. Nappy won't re-declare for a while - his relative strength has been reduced. Alex is in a war with Cathy and probably needs a reason to declare on us. If he does, we can cope.

So yes. Lets get to ST ASAP and save enough gold to at least buy a school in MBR. We should sign an RA with Siam as IIRC they are more advanced than Persia.

Agree with the bank in MBR.

 

[AlanH]

Thanks for the inputs, guys. I've been a tad busy this week, but I'll try to get to it this weekend and find a way forward. Keep it coming

 

[leif erikson]

We switched to food focus on the turn we made peace with France. I really imagined that we would stop military builds for a while and get our population up and our gold up to buy educational establishments and RA's. Do you not think that growth is king except for science?

I agree, as long as our civilization is happy. Effects of unhappiness negate the extra food needed for growth, so we are wasting food. When we are unhappy, our growth rate is significantly slowed, so we might as well work production tiles.

If we get very unhappy, we get combat penalties, so why would we want to grow much if we cannot support the population?

I guess I disagree about the need to build more units. They just drain gold and delay infrastructure. I don't think more wars will help the cause. Nappy won't re-declare for a while - his relative strength has been reduced. Alex is in a war with Cathy and probably needs a reason to declare on us. If he does, we can cope.

They also help lessen the risk of AI declaring war and catching us unprepared. If you wish to lessen the gold burden, then we should decide to spend Gold on unit upgrades, but that lessens our ability to make RA's. The only alternative is to build modern units and disband old ones? Not a very good choice, really. Keeping an army of older units about isn't going to accomplish much.

So yes. Lets get to ST ASAP and save enough gold to at least buy a school in MBR. We should sign an RA with Siam as IIRC they are more advanced than Persia.

The value of an RA doesn't matter where in the tech tree other civs are, we get a certain beaker bump when the RA completes. With Porcelain Tower and, should we open Rationalism, we should sign every RA we can sign because we get +100% (double) the RA value in beakers.

 

[mad-bax]

We're not unhappy yet, and can still build 2 coliseums and circus maximus. Additionally, we have puppets, which if we are careful we can annexe and build courthouses (though we should debate the 4gpt cost). There are lots of happiness related buildings that will become available soon.

My understanding with RA's was that you got some proportion of the average beakers that you and your partner made over the life of the RA. Siam is researching the fastest, so I thought that that would nett us the most beakers.

I do not fear the AI militarily. Although we have aggressive neighbours I think that they have had their wings clipped sufficiently, and in any case, we could react quickly enough to beat back an attack quite quickly. Obviously this is a judgement call.

I agree with the comments around PT and Rationalism. Of course, with having so many cities now, completing the Rationalism tree to get the further RA boost will take a lot of turns unless we build a lot of culture.

My biggest fear right now is Siam winning by diplomacy. Going full out tech is a gambit, but we should understand our real enemy.

 

[leif erikson]

We're not unhappy yet, and can still build 2 coliseums and circus maximus. Additionally, we have puppets, which if we are careful we can annexe and build courthouses (though we should debate the 4gpt cost). There are lots of happiness related buildings that will become available soon.

Correct, we are at 0 happiness, plus 4 if we make the Iron for Cotton deal. Once we go to -1, we might just as well work as many hammer tiles as we can to get those happiness buildings built because our growth will be very slow, so in essence, we waste food.

My understanding with RA's was that you got some proportion of the average beakers that you and your partner made over the life of the RA. Siam is researching the fastest, so I thought that that would nett us the most beakers.

Yes, not sure about vanilla. We actually, with Rationalism started, get twice that number, so in my eyes, no matter what it is we should sign all the RA's we can afford.

I do not fear the AI militarily. Although we have aggressive neighbours I think that they have had their wings clipped sufficiently, and in any case, we could react quickly enough to beat back an attack quite quickly. Obviously this is a judgement call.

Perhaps, we made peace with France because, as I understood it, we were about to lose a city we captured. France still has a lot of quite good units and 10 turns from the peace deal, they are free to come calling. And Alex has a bunch lined up too.

Having a sufficient army is the only thing, as I understand it, that keeps them at bay. Whatever formula the AI uses? Being overwhelmed is not really fun.

My biggest fear right now is Siam winning by diplomacy. Going full out tech is a gambit, but we should understand our real enemy.

We need to watch that and take steps to pull City-States our way.