Spain

[DeAnno]

I feel like the main issue with this Hacienda design is it's too scattered, trying to give a little of everything. It ends up not making much of an identity for it despite all its text. It's basically just another goodstuff nonadjacent UI. Also the city adjacency bonus is weird on Spain, it kind of discourages settling coasts and islands which I don't think is what should be desired.

 

[pineappledan]

Dan, I really don't think the Hacienda changes decision making all that much. It is mostly obvious where to put them. Occasionally you'll get a choice between 2 food and 2 production (2 gold is always worse than these two). I'm not against this UI but it really isn't crazy innovative. Your own evidence was one review (not reviews), and the review isn't extremely positive on the Hacienda either.

Any UI creates various land management decisions, since they create opportunity costs by taking up tile space. I mean, I'm not particularily interested in trawling 2 years of forum posts for people's assessments... I found 1 and then had to go to work.

@CrazyG Here's a little worksheet for you:

Spoiler Where would you put the Hacienda? :

Spoiler pdan's attempt :

Maybe you would do it differently?

The mission should cause you change your decisions, thrift becomes a very good follower belief. You also care about growing more than a regular warmonger would, though with new happiness it could be tough.

Do you have some way that you would want to change the mission, or do you think that changing the UA to / instant yields, while keeping the unique infrastructure as / instant yields will remain interesting? I don't think it will.

All things being equal, I think the Mission would need to be changed in some way; the Hacienda is my proposed way of changing the mission. If you don't like it then perhaps you could supply a counterproposal or mount a defense of the Mission, as Stalker has done?

I feel like the main issue with this Hacienda design is it's too scattered, trying to give a little of everything.

That's certainly fair. What do you think the yields should be in order to make the Hacienda feel more "focused". I wanted in my original design, but added a touch of / in order to make it a little more different from Polders. I realize that this stretches the Hacienda a bit thin.

Also the city adjacency bonus is weird on Spain, it kind of discourages settling coasts and islands which I don't think is what should be desired.

Sounds more like a general problem with small islands and unique improvements than something unique to Spain. Would you say that this is a problem for Polynesia as well, then?

 

[CrazyG]

I would place my Hacienda the same as you, which is sort of what I mean by it isn't really adding a decision, the correct locations are pretty obvious, you end up with Hacienda in most of the places a Shoshone encampment would be. IDK if you can really plan city placement for them either, as you put cities down before all resources are revealed, the Hacienda comes quite late, and the rewards are kind of small.

I'm looking at two of my current games (Ottomans and Poland), and if I had the Hacienda it wouldn't really do much. I can chop down a few lumber mills for haciendas, and gain a few yields. Of 12 cities analyzed, I would only settle 1 of them in a different location because of the Hacienda.

If it does happen, I think culture and faith should stay off of it (keep in mind it can science from autocracy, which means that in 4UC a Hacienda can produce every type of core yield). Its a slightly better farm/mine that you get in a few places, overall its a pretty weak unique trait. I would much rather have extra faith as Spain, IDK if I would even want access to a high food UI depending on the state of happiness.

The mission fits pretty directly into Spain's style. You rush chivalry, and your castle UB provides extra gold and faith for your warmongering and conquistador spamming. Faith buying in a newly conquered city can be quite valuable. Spain's problem is that is has an awkward amount of food (mission used to give food as well, I think), that's what we should change.

 

[DeAnno]

Do you have some way that you would want to change the mission, or do you think that changing the UA to / instant yields, while keeping the unique infrastructure as / instant yields will remain interesting? I don't think it will.

That's certainly fair. What do you think the yields should be in order to make the Hacienda feel more "focused". I wanted in my original design, but added a touch of / in order to make it a little more different from Polders. I realize that this stretches the Hacienda a bit thin.

I think Renaissance Spain is very much about in theme, even if that's already the basis of the ability, whatever form it takes (it does have a good Faith sink, after all.) Haciendas thematically do seem to be about exploiting resources, so perhaps just trying to do that in a less tangled way? We could even avoid giving to make them more of a choice, making life a bit more difficult for the individual city working them.

UI - Hacienda (Worker Improvement):
available at Civil Service
build time - 8 turns
+3 Faith, +3 Gold, +1 Culture
+3 Gold from each adjacent Resource (of any kind)
cannot be built adjacent to other Hacienda
+1 Culture at Architecture, +3 Gold at Fertilizer

I think this kind of design discourages spamming without thought a bit more while still making them useful, especially amidst dense resource concentrations.

 

[pineappledan]

I would place my Hacienda the same as you, which is sort of what I mean by it isn't really adding a decision, the correct locations are pretty obvious, you end up with Hacienda in most of the places a Shoshone encampment would be. IDK if you can really plan city placement for them either, as you put cities down before all resources are revealed, the Hacienda comes quite late, and the rewards are kind of small.

Encampments can't be built on hills or tundra.
This seems like an impossibly high bar for interest, the only other UIs in the game with dynamic yields are the Moai and Terrace Farm. if you aren't going to accept tile placement of a UI as a decision that is specific to the civ, then I don't know what to tell you. This is pretty plainly a devil's advocate, unless you find UIs utterly uninteresting and never use them.

Just because a decision is obvious doesn't mean it's not a decision. Teching to Chivalry is a decision for mission/conquistador is and yet teching to Civil Service for a Hacienda is not? Buying a building with faith when you have the necessary faith is an interesting decision, and yet tile placements with opportunity costs are not? Maximizing adjacency bonuses on the terrain isn't a decision, and switching your city to a gold focus for 1 turn when the city grows +1 for a gold dump is?

If it does happen, I think culture and faith should stay off of it (keep in mind it can science from autocracy, which means that in 4UC a Hacienda can produce every type of core yield). Its a slightly better farm/mine that you get in a few places, overall its a pretty weak unique trait. I would much rather have extra faith as Spain, IDK if I would even want access to a high food UI depending on the state of happiness.

I think Renaissance Spain is very much about in theme, even if that's already the basis of the ability, whatever form it takes (it does have a good Faith sink, after all.) Haciendas thematically do seem to be about exploiting resources, so perhaps just trying to do that in a less tangled way? We could even avoid giving to make them more of a choice, making life a bit more difficult for the individual city working them.

UI - Hacienda (Worker Improvement):
available at Civil Service
build time - 8 turns
+3 Faith, +3 Gold, +1 Culture
+3 Gold from each adjacent Resource (of any kind)
cannot be built adjacent to other Hacienda
+1 Culture at Architecture, +3 Gold at Fertilizer

I'm surprised to hear all this resistance to different yields coming from different adjacencies. I hadn't thought it was all that troublesome to people, and I've never heard this complaint for it in 4UC.

Medieval tile improvements base yields:
Polders: 321
Chateaus: 233
Feitoria: 33
Kasbah: 1222 (look at that yield coverage! SMITE IT!)

As you can see, 331 is right up there with feitoria and polder, but not as good as Chateau/Kasbah. If you add adjacency yields, the Hacienda would easily beat most GP tiles at that level.
For my part, I think makes as much sense as for Hacienda, and I would be loath to drop it. The Hacienda were glorified work camps/sweatshops after all. Also, I still believe that a 3rd yield type, aside from and , would really improve Spain's mouthfeel. Otherwise the yields are too homogeneous with the UA.

How about this?
UI - Hacienda (Worker Improvement):
available at Civil Service
build time - 8 turns
+1 Faith, +1 Gold, +1 Production
+1 Faith, +1 Culture from adjacent City
+1 Gold and +1 Production from each adjacent Resource
cannot be built adjacent to other Hacienda
+1 Culture at Architecture, +3 Gold at Fertilizer

That gets rid of the food, so Hacienda only has 3/4 yield types (same as Kasbah), and is the only *medieval* UI with . That also reduces the yield adjacencies to only 2: cities and resources. As I said before, the UI could also be moved to compass to slim down Spain's tech progression, since that's the same tech as Caravels, so it's a priority tech for Spain.

The cities adjacency is both a nod to the original mexico mod, which required city adjacency as a prerequisite, and has a historical basis. The Hacendado rarely actually lived at his Hacienda, preferring to live in the city, but they preferred to have the Hacienda close to the city in order to make travel to and from easier. A priest would often live at the Hacienda to convert the native workers, but a shorter distance to his local parish made his job easier as well.

 

[Chandler]

That gets rid of the food, so Hacienda only has 3/4 yield types (same as Kasbah), and is the only UI with .

What about the Mayan's Kuna? Have you considered providing Golden Age Points? That would make them definitely unique, and... Well, they are from about the same time of Spain's golden age, so... Just an idea.

 

[pineappledan]

I meant of the medieval UIs I had listed. Edited. Also ignoring 4UC’s monolithic church UI since we are discussing base VP

 

[CrazyG]

I could build Shoshone encampments on flat Tundra as of last month's patch.

I am aware that building a hacienda is a decision that I make, but it doesn't strike me as meaningful. I don't think this hacienda is powerful enough to make me research civil service instead of just rushing gunpowder to support the conquistador rampage. When you play Spain, you research chivalry, and put your foot on the gas, deleting the mission wouldn't change that.

When I do get civil service, I guess I'll replace that mine with a Hacienda, because I get an extra 3 food and 1 gold by doing so (I lose a hammer though). I'm sitll going to build the mine because the tile probably gets used for dozens of turns before the Hacienda comes around. This whole discussion really depends on what the UA changes to, doesn't it? I'm willing to try your idea but I kind of suspect its too strong (comparing to Carthage, and conquistadors are so much better than quinquereme, and conquistadors are the most fun part of spain so they better not be changed).

 

[pineappledan]

I could build Shoshone encampments on flat Tundra as of last month's patch.

I am aware that building a hacienda is a decision that I make, but it doesn't strike me as meaningful. I don't think this hacienda is powerful enough to make me research civil service instead of just rushing gunpowder to support the conquistador rampage. When you play Spain, you research chivalry, and put your foot on the gas, deleting the mission wouldn't change that.

When I do get civil service, I guess I'll replace that mine with a Hacienda, because I get an extra 3 food and 1 gold by doing so (I lose a hammer though). I'm sitll going to build the mine because the tile probably gets used for dozens of turns before the Hacienda comes around. This whole discussion really depends on what the UA changes to, doesn't it? I'm willing to try your idea but I kind of suspect its too strong (comparing to Carthage, and conquistadors are so much better than quinquereme, and conquistadors are the most fun part of spain so they better not be changed).

sounds like my suggestion of changing the unlock tech to Compass has more backing then, since that’s a prereq to gunpowder too.

Yes, this whole discussion depends on if the is dropped from the UA. Now would be a good time for G to weight in, put his foot down on whether I’m wasting my time advocating for a component change.

I’m not advocating for a conquistador change. Yet. If the 1 loss on cities is staying and the cost of pioneers isn’t reined in, we may have no choice but to rework that too. Hard to say, but as it exists in the current patch, Conquistadors have an absurd number of advantages over both a knight and a pioneer.

 

[Gazebo]

I don’t think the solution to Spain’s food UA lies in replacing its UB. I think subbing the food for gold would be fine.

G

 

[pineappledan]

I don’t think the solution to Spain’s food UA lies in replacing its UB. I think subbing the food for gold would be fine.

Does my proposal to change Spain's gold trigger to scale on the number of tiles claimed interest you? I can do a pull request on github for that change.

 

[Gazebo]

Does my proposal to change Spain's gold trigger to scale on the number of tiles claimed interest you? I can do a pull request on github for that change.

I think it's fine, but I also don't know if we need it right away. I think smaller changes first.

G

 

[pineappledan]

I think it's fine, but I also don't know if we need it right away. I think smaller changes first.

What were those tables for, if I might ask? You've created a table for tile yields for every conceivable method of gaining tiles; it seems a waste not to use them.

 

[Gazebo]

What were those tables for, if I might ask? You've created a table for tile yields for every conceivable method of gaining tiles; it seems a waste not to use them.

Dunno probably an API request.

G

 

[HungryForFood]

It was mine, for Tojo. I split it out so people can just use one type of trigger only if they want.

 

[tu_79]

Unique building: Plaza de Toros (replaces Circus). All villages worked by the city gain 2 faith, plus 1 hammer for every resource adjacent to the village. +1 happiness to stables. And everything a circus does.

If there is something more iconic to Spain than the missions, that's the corridas. It requires some cattle and some horses for the show, so it makes sense that it enhances the stable (better than just requiring a pasture), and produces some extra happiness. Spain wants horses anyways.

I was thinking about the hacienda, and I still keep thinking that the hacienda is just a glorified village, that produced locally instead of trading everything to the city. Spain has a tendency to autarchy (the kingdom never cared about trading, it just wanted to extract the richies from the new world to the Crown's glory), so it makes sense to me that Spain is focused on internal trade routes. Boosted villages just clicks all the cogs.

How is that better than the Mission?
Spain does not need another faith sink, but needs some faith production. Food for Spain is antithematic. The religious theme is already garnered by the unique ability. Missions increase religious pressure and resistance, as if they were religious buildings, which combined with Inquisition makes Spain invulnerable in religion, basically removing religious divisions of the game.
Since villages become better with a Plaza de Toros, Spain will try to boost all of her villages with a trading route, making her more focused on internal trade, which is both thematic and changes the game dynamic. These boosted villages represent the Hacienda model in a way that does not interfere or compete with the basic improvement.

Gameplay wise, it feels a bit cheap to settle a city with a conquistador, and instantly have it with castles, and three to four people. A conquistador founded city is already good as is, and if the unique building is encouraging to settle inland instead of along the coast, well, that's a change for better. Island cities would become worse, but islands were never really profitable for Spain.

Optionally, if you prefer to keep the current UB, remove faith and food generation from the Mission, remove the increased religious pressure, and have it boost villages with hammers as if those were the missions.

 

[Rekk]

Spain doesn't need very many coastal cities, since even one coastal city nets 1 naval unit/turn with faith, which can outproduce 3/4+ cities that have to produce with hammers.

 

[pineappledan]

I think it's fine, but I also don't know if we need it right away. I think smaller changes first.

harumph... that code could implement a unique twist to yields on settle/conquer/expansion and unstack the UA's mechanics from Assyria/Carthage while preserving the current Spain playstyle. A damn shame.

 

[pineappledan]

Spain and Celts have totally different religious mechanics.

Only your Religion can spread to owned Cities or allied City-States.

Owned Cities with your Religion neither generate nor receive foreign Religious Pressure.

It doesn't matter whether a cat is white or black, as long as it catches mice

You're technically right, but functionally, they are so similar as to make the distinction moot.

This is like arguing that Captain Crunch and Fruit Loops are different. They're not different; they're sugar cereal. Pick 1 brand of sugar cereal and get some Oatmeal instead. Don't have 2 civs with passive pressure resistance, give 1 passive pressure resistance and give the other bonuses for active pressure resistance, or something else.

 

[Gazebo]

You're technically right, but functionally, they are so similar as to make the distinction moot.

This is like arguing that Captain Crunch and Fruit Loops are different. They're not different; they're sugar cereal. Pick 1 brand of sugar cereal and get some Oatmeal instead. Don't have 2 civs with passive pressure resistance, give 1 passive pressure resistance and give the other bonuses for active pressure resistance, or something else.

Except captain crunch cuts the roof of your mouth.

G