Spanish Judge issues arrest warrant for US soldiers in Iraq

[Bugfatty300]

Uh huh......

Spain just tried and imprisoned several 9/11 suspects.

Maybe they should turn those guys over to the US trials if they really want these soldiers.

Guess what?

The EU will not extradite anybody to the US with capital offenses like murder. And thus the US has no need or obligation to extradite these guys to Spain.

Nuff said.

 

[GrandAdmiral]

So you also believe Goergo Bush (he's a US official after all) that your courty invaded Iraq because they violated the food-for-oil program... ah, sorry, because they sponsored terrorists... sorry, atacked the US... or, rather, had WMD they kept secret.... ect.?


sorry, but an official telling the press something the soliders supposedly believed is not going to be accepted in any court, not even a US one.

Find a new excuse - i wish you better luck next time

Did I say I ever believed any of Bush's excuses for going to war? No. All I said was that US officials gave an explanation since you said they needed to provide one. If you read carefully you will notice I said it wasn't proof. My point was that they aren't required to provide proof. The reason being is that Spain has no form of authority in the situation to carry out an investigation or to impose its law. Any form of one would be a courtesy by the US and not an obligation. At the same time what suggests premeditated murder? You think the guys were like hey there's probably a Spaniard in that building and opened fire because they had that new technology that can see through walls.

If you were the one who had been shot, or maimed, i bet the "war is war get over it" line would seem as cheap to you then, as it does to sensible people now.

Good point. If I was stupid enough to put myself in a war zone out of my own free will then I probably wouldn't have any idea what the term negligence means either.

 

[Thorgalaeg]

Did I say I ever believed any of Bush's excuses for going to war? No. All I said was that US officials gave an explanation since you said they needed to provide one. If you read carefully you will notice I said it wasn't proof. My point was that they aren't required to provide proof. The reason being is that Spain has no form of authority in the situation to carry out an investigation or to impose its law. Any form of one would be a courtesy by the US and not an obligation.

I know, dont worry. Spain has the same authority in USA as USA in Spain. However we are not speaking about Spanish authority but of legality. It seems USA is at a banana military dictatorship level in that matter.

Good point. If I was stupid enough to put myself in a war zone out of my own free will then I probably wouldn't have any idea what the term negligence means either.

Yes, war reporters are negligent dont they? I know that excepting the lapdogs authorized by the US army you dont like FREE press doing his work in your wars.

 

[GrandAdmiral]

I know, dont worry. Spain has the same authority in USA as USA in Spain. However we are not speaking about Spanish authority but of legality. It seems USA is at a banana military dictatorship level in that matter.

Spanish law means nothing outside of Spain, go ahead and make an argument for its releveance to the situation in Irag instead of making irrelevant comments about the United States and I will gladly listen but I doubt you are capable.

Yes, war reporters are negligent dont they? I know that excepting the lapdogs authorized by the US army you dont like FREE press doing his work in your wars.

Again it seems like instead adressing the subject you dodge it by stating some anti-American rhetoric and assume I'm some US army supporter. I just think your judges are complete idiots for trying to enforce a law in a territory where your laws do not exist. Instead of assuming my opinion on why I think the reporters are negligent why don't you just ask like a normal person would. It has nothing to do with wether or not I like free press. It just has to do with common sense. It dangerous to be in a war zone. So yes reporters who go into one are negligent about their safety. Thats a fact that has nothing to do with my opinion of wether or not I like free press.

Our war? Thats a cowardly attitude. You guys were there too. I fess up and admit my government screwed up going but your being ruled by the same idoits who supported them. They don't have any backbone and followed the Bush administrations coat tail into a stupid war and you think your in a position to criticize as though your from a third party?

 

[jameson]

Spanish law means nothing outside of Spain, go ahead and make an argument for its releveance to the situation in Irag (...)

So what law does apply in Iraq ? Under what circumstances and jurisdiction could American soldiers who committed crimes in Iraq be prosecuted ? And how could you, for instance, justify the American DOJ handing out indictments to the bombers of the USS Cole when quite obviously, American law doesn't apply in Yemen ?

Is it to be a one set of laws for the US and another one for everbybody else ?

Instead of assuming my opinion on why I think the reporters are negligent why don't you just ask like a normal person would. It has nothing to do with wether or not I like free press. It just has to do with common sense. It dangerous to be in a war zone. So yes reporters who go into one are negligent about their safety. Thats a fact that has nothing to do with my opinion of wether or not I like free press.

To me, your opinion sounds quite inconsistent. Because how free is a press corps that cannot properly report from a warzone ? Everybody accepts that reports in a warzone might be hit by stray bullets/shells. The reporter here, on the other hand, was hit by a shell that targeted a building that was known to contain pretty much the entire non-embedded international press in Iraq.

Our war? Thats a cowardly attitude. You guys were there too. I fess up and admit my government screwed up going but your being ruled by the same idoits who supported them.

It might interest you to learn that the Spanish at least voted out the ruling party and PM who chose to 'ride Bush's coattails' and replaced them with the social democrats, who subsequently pulled the Spanish troops out of IRaq. Or it might not.

 

[JohnRM]

You you go into a war zone you get shot, its common sense. I can see civilians complaining, but foreigners? I can even see people talking about war crimes but Spanish law in Iraq? Just like US soldiers she had no right to be there and no garauntee of safety.

Tell me about it. What the hell is the U.S. supposed to do about foreign journalists sprawled across the Iraqi cities using the same excellent vantage points as enemy snipers?

 

[carlosMM]

Tell me about it. What the hell is the U.S. supposed to do about foreign journalists sprawled across the Iraqi cities using the same excellent vantage points as enemy snipers?

maybe by remembering that it was
a) a hotel
b) know as a place all those journlists stay
c) not being fired on for QUIET a long time despite those guys up there.


but, intelligance and reactions adapted to the situation is maybe a bit too high a demand for people who grow up in a Rambo institution, trained by Rambo-mimicking morons. So, you'll see a few soldiers act out their training from good instructors and act smartly, and you'll see a few soldiers behave like Nazis and strictly shoot first, ask questions never.


It is a pity that the last decade or so has brought more and more of the latter attitude into the US Armed Forces - during the '91 war, things were quite a bit better. But, maybe this has to do with the person in charge - while Gen. Schwarzkopf and Gen. Powell tried to gegt along with others, Franks has a serious inferiorty complex to fight the world with

 

[SuperSloth]

maybe by remembering that it was
a) a hotel
b) know as a place all those journlists stay
c) not being fired on for QUIET a long time despite those guys up there.


but, intelligance and reactions adapted to the situation is maybe a bit too high a demand for people who grow up in a Rambo institution, trained by Rambo-mimicking morons. So, you'll see a few soldiers act out their training from good instructors and act smartly, and you'll see a few soldiers behave like Nazis and strictly shoot first, ask questions never.


It is a pity that the last decade or so has brought more and more of the latter attitude into the US Armed Forces - during the '91 war, things were quite a bit better. But, maybe this has to do with the person in charge - while Gen. Schwarzkopf and Gen. Powell tried to gegt along with others, Franks has a serious inferiorty complex to fight the world with

in this kind of war, where the enemy is blended with the civilian population civilian infrastructure can be considered military targets. you cant compare the 91' gulf war to this. the first gulf war was a conventional war and the relative risk to civilians was considerably less.

how do you know that the new US army is full of "rambo-mimicks". have you actaully been in the comabt zones and seen the way the soldiers behave? you cannot really make a judgement like just by watching media dribble.

 

[Thorgalaeg]

Spanish law means nothing outside of Spain, go ahead and make an argument for its releveance to the situation in Irag instead of making irrelevant comments about the United States and I will gladly listen but I doubt you are capable.

It is really simple. Spanish law allows the investigation and persecution of suspects of committing criminal acts against Spanish citizens in ANY country using all legal means. Next question.

Again it seems like instead adressing the subject you dodge it by stating some anti-American rhetoric and assume I'm some US army supporter. I just think your judges are complete idiots for trying to enforce a law in a territory where your laws do not exist. Instead of assuming my opinion on why I think the reporters are negligent why don't you just ask like a normal person would. It has nothing to do with wether or not I like free press. It just has to do with common sense. It dangerous to be in a war zone. So yes reporters who go into one are negligent about their safety. Thats a fact that has nothing to do with my opinion of wether or not I like free press.

No, no, no. You were implying that the reporters were to blame simply because they were in Iraq.
BTW they were not running between iraqis trenches but in a very well known hotel where all the international press was along all the war. Hardly negligent.

Our war? Thats a cowardly attitude. You guys were there too. I fess up and admit my government screwed up going but your being ruled by the same idoits who supported them. They don't have any backbone and followed the Bush administrations coat tail into a stupid war and you think your in a position to criticize as though your from a third party?

I agree here. Aznar didnt have the backbone and followed Bush but it seems that the current president has. So, i am not being ruled by the same idiots who supported Bush, they were fired in the last elections IIRC.

 

[GrandAdmiral]

So what law does apply in Iraq ? Under what circumstances and jurisdiction could American soldiers who committed crimes in Iraq be prosecuted ?

The law of the insurgents or the Interim government. Some claim of authority that actually lives there is a pretty basic requirement. The US forces were also claiming authority over that area at the time. I'm not saying I side with any of these groups, I'm just saying they at least have fraction of a claim in this situation while Spain does not. Hell, if it was international law they were sighting in accordance to the UN they would have a legitimate claim.

To me, your opinion sounds quite inconsistent. Because how free is a press corps that cannot properly report from a warzone ?

Freedom of the press is "a press not restricted or controlled by government censorship regarding politics or ideology." Where did my opinion (not the acts commited by the US military) state that I wanted to restrict those freedoms?

I really don't see what that has to do with my opinion. My opinion is that they are knowingly putting themselves in harms way, which is a dangerous and negligent act. I didn't actually encourage the parties to make it that way. Poor job of actually referring to my opinion all you did was compare the conditions of the environment with your idea of what free press is.

And how could you, for instance, justify the American DOJ handing out indictments to the bombers of the USS Cole when quite obviously, American law doesn't apply in Yemen ?

Why would I justify something tha I never claimed to support? Justify your own statements.

It might interest you to learn that the Spanish at least voted out the ruling party and PM who chose to 'ride Bush's coattails' and replaced them with the social democrats, who subsequently pulled the Spanish troops out of IRaq. Or it might not.

I already knew and its one of the reasons I said it was a cowardly attitude. Because the poster's country withdrew they think they can forget the role their government played and state that the war belongs to a Bush hater and anti-war American.

 

[GrandAdmiral]

It is really simple. Spanish law allows the investigation and persecution of suspects of committing criminal acts against Spanish citizens in ANY country using all legal means. Next question.

Laws aren't relevent in places where the government has no jurisdiction. So Spain could say all of its laws apply to the whole world but it wouldn't mean anything outside of Spain. Spain recognizes most sovereign nations so a law like that is nothing but a contradiction.

No, no, no. You were implying that the reporters were to blame simply because they were in Iraq.
BTW they were not running between iraqis trenches but in a very well known hotel where all the international press was along all the war. Hardly negligent.

In urban warfare the buildings are the trenches.... I don't vouche for anyone's saftey in Iraq, I don't vouche for the US having enough control of the situation that I would think a hotel where the press stays is a safe place. I expect more then a stay bullet to be the danger. Did you not see the videos of those explosions in the middle of Baghdad yesterday? Negligent.. And thats not to say they aren't doing anyone a service.

 

[Zany]

One comment:

What the **** is some insignificant worm of a judge issuing an "international" arrest warrant for US soldiers?

 

[Kyriakos]

Some people here just have no hope of ever becomming anything even remotely sane.

 

[Thorgalaeg]

Laws aren't relevent in places where the government has no jurisdiction. So Spain could say all of its laws apply to the whole world but it wouldn't mean anything outside of Spain. Spain recognizes most sovereign nations so a law like that is nothing but a contradiction.

I dont see how. International arrest orders are contempled in the international code. BTW, coming of somebody from USA to speak of sovereign nations is a bit... lets say strange.

In urban warfare the buildings are the trenches.... I don't vouche for anyone's saftey in Iraq, I don't vouche for the US having enough control of the situation that I would think a hotel where the press stays is a safe place. I expect more then a stay bullet to be the danger. Did you not see the videos of those explosions in the middle of Baghdad yesterday? Negligent.. And thats not to say they aren't doing anyone a service.

Whatever. of course this time the press is to blame again, not the terrorists.

One comment:

What the **** is some insignificant worm of a judge issuing an "international" arrest warrant for US soldiers?

The mighty US soldiers now cant go to any civilized country becuase they will be arrested, investigated and likely packed to Spain to be judged by the insignificant judge.

 

[A'AbarachAmadan]

Under Spanish law, a crime committed against a Spaniard abroad can be prosecuted here if it is not investigated in the country where it is committed.

So lets just ignore Spanish law then, shall we? I guess the US investigating its own people in a war zone isn't good enough. The incident was investigated and the Soldiers cleared. Guess that doesn't matter to this wacko judge. Double jeopardy at its best.

 

[carlosMM]

Laws aren't relevent in places where the government has no jurisdiction. So Spain could say all of its laws apply to the whole world but it wouldn't mean anything outside of Spain. Spain recognizes most sovereign nations so a law like that is nothing but a contradiction.

Strike SPain/Spanish, replace with US/US.


Now, i have heard that about a billion times before, so please go to Washington and tell your own government to quit getting on everybody's nerves with that line


gotcha!

 

[carlosMM]

One comment:

What the **** is some insignificant worm of a judge issuing an "international" arrest warrant for US soldiers?

oh, so beacuse he is a foreign national he is insignificant?
Need to remember that, next time I meet someone from abroad. They have no rights at all....

So lets just ignore Spanish law then, shall we? I guess the US investigating its own people in a war zone isn't good enough. The incident was investigated and the Soldiers cleared. Guess that doesn't matter to this wacko judge. Double jeopardy at its best.

not at all! Actually, the US investigation IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH - nobody says the US doesn't do it, or doesn't do it seriously enough, but for anybody it should be obvious that foreign decisions aren't blindly accepted! SO all the judge wanted to do was re-check things to see if all was OK - and then he found himself stonewalled. Now that ALONE is reason for suspicion!


One thing the US should learn is that they can't DEMAND cooperation from others, but DENY it to them. Especially when national and international laws are broken by the denial.

 

[Jorge]

how do you know that the new US army is full of "rambo-mimicks". have you actaully been in the comabt zones and seen the way the soldiers behave? you cannot really make a judgement like just by watching media dribble.

Right, that is why a trial would be good to prove with evidence if the USA army is full of rambos or not, because we don´t know (unless you support the idea that US army has the right to do whatever they want no matter if it´s right or wrong without give any kind of explanations).

 

[carlosMM]

in this kind of war, where the enemy is blended with the civilian population civilian infrastructure can be considered military targets. you cant compare the 91' gulf war to this. the first gulf war was a conventional war and the relative risk to civilians was considerably less.

still, nobody attacked a hotel known to be full of western journalists in '91. So your rebuttal is besides the point.

how do you know that the new US army is full of "rambo-mimicks". have you actaully been in the comabt zones and seen the way the soldiers behave? you cannot really make a judgement like just by watching media dribble.

I know quite a few US soldiers - I grew up in a own that has 4 huge barrakcs spread around it. I mete soldiers in many US towns. I have seen them, talked to them, drank with them.

I know there is much less of a drive to get rid of aggressive and troublesome rambo types these days than there used to be.

**** the media, I go by my own experiences. I do not need to see the video shots fo US troops playing R&R while shooting civilians (extreme and rare cases, I hope), I do not need to see the Abu Graib pictures to know these 'people' are out there, constantly trying to bolster their egos by being the 'best' killer and humiliator possible.

 

[wit>trope]

This is what Spain is saying:

"Our Spanish jurisdiction supersedes any jurisdiction that America has over her own soldiers. We are the great Spanish Kingdom. Glorious are we in all the world. We have power even over America. Our jurisdiction is even greater than America's."

Spain should cede jurisdiction to America and America should agree to cooperating with Spanish investigators in a joint investigation.

I don't know how ceding jurisdiction can be done in Spanish law but it should be done.