Interesting. Is the debate really only the best between lake and mines or was it across all nat wonders? Because honestly I'm tempted to say that Uluru or GBRs are better than each lake/mines depending on city location/victory.
For instance, CV would give an edge to mines whereas SV would probably prefer lake.
Domination could use Uluru above either these 2 to faith-buy an entire army for an extremely early rush and any VC could use it to get much better early game growth through pagodas and mosques.
Anyway, I'm probably going to give a shot at a CV mines eventually since cap being coastal gives easy growth from cargos anyway but even if the best turn-to-victory posted is by one wonder or the other, I don't think it would be near conclusive enough to state that wonder is best wonder. I really think double GBR is the most flexible/all around best as science helps towards each VC and you get to double dip in OWN for faith nearly mimicking Uluru faith output (excepted pantheon kicks in significantly later)
I forgot all about Uluru... I agree that the GBR or FoY is the best (probably the GBR); but in this thread the question was about KSM vs LV only.
Well within reason people should post 2 results one for each wonder (with the same targeted VC). There is a giant gap in gameplay and skills across these forums especially over different VCs. I would have to agree with Glory on that. I don't think a large sample size will necessarily be very representative nor that a single player playing the map 6 times to do all 3 VC for both wonders would be much better as it implies that player knows how to get the most out of each wonder.
The problem is that replaying the map skews the results as you will have perfect map and opponent knowledge (and you may have read spoilers from others, as I have already done). When I said 'representative sample', I meant like 20 players per VC/wonder combination... Which is why I also said that we most likely won't get it.
Perhaps the best way to go about this would've been to reveal the map at the start, so that you could replay as many times as you want without problems. You may replay even now if you want to; I won't put you on the list, but I will count all play-throughs and their results. Once the thread has run its course, we can try and evaluate the results. Even if they'll have little statistical value due to various factors, well, we all had fun playing and the next test will be designed that much better.
I will update the op with the replay chance/caveat.
I just had a spain game with GRB in capitol. I put the save on the godly start thread.
I buy a scout and a shrine the turn I settle, a settler after 2 pop. GRB is totally insane. you can ignore library for so long to hard build any wonder, etc.. Spain double the pantheon belief that give faith for Natural wonder, so if you get a pantheon with spain, you can get +16 faith with GRB, wich is enough to buy what you need/want (and get first religion / enhancer)
GRB is the most abusive start you can get with spain, it's not even worth comparing with LV or SM
What about FoY and it's +20 Happiness, though? Granted that early Golden Ages are not that useful... But you can spam cities like there's no tomorrow with that wonder (and there won't be for your opponents
). Not to mention that you're armies will be nigh-invincible with it.
Guess I'll give Dom Mines a shot. 3 Wheat and a Grainary in a blink should be enough food anyway.
Hmm I knew I should've deleted one of the Wheats... Oh well, too late for that now. I'll put you on the list.
I would like to test this too but i only have time at the end of this week and if i am informed correctly the fall patch comes today which makes this saves unplayable
Could you do these opening saves with the new patch as well?
Thx in advance
Will that really happen? I thought the official patch is the same as the beta patch, so there won't be a problem..? If it does screw up the saves though, I'm not sure I can do anything about it... 'Cause then I can't open them up either. This just might throw off the whole experiment, if all those other faults didn't. Well, we'll just have to wait and see. Has the patch been released or will it be later today? Maybe hold off on playing if you're just starting, just in case.
), on Immortal no less. These factors make the case not nearly as clear-cut as with a regular civ. I do think though that for Science Victory in particular LV might be better... But that's what we're here to test! 
).
Civ V's production costs are still quite out of whack imo. In the previous games you could build almost any building in 4-8 turns iirc, even with modest production.
