Spearman vs. Tank alive and well!

[Slowpoke]

I think you guys are missing the joke. A SWORDSMAN nearly shot down a FIGHTER. What did it grow wings and fly? At least a spearsmen brigade might break the tanks treads or something.

 

[Depravo]

I share the view that obsolete land units represent rag tag militias equipped with small arms and with rudimentary AA capabilities.

However, asymmetric warfare doesn't work at sea or in the air on a strategic level. IE Somali pirates (who would disappear overnight if the ROTW took the gloves off) and the USS Cole don't count.

 

[Rylune]

Why? Why hasn't this basic problem been fixed? Why can't they make it so that a majorly outclassed unit simply captures or defeats the opposing unit as if they were embarked?

While we are at it, why do embarked units not get a chance to fight? I can understand a huge hit to strength but why are my paratroopers and infantry dying to barbarian triremes? Can't they defend themselves at all? Heck what about a Gunship? I was trying to explore a little and did not see the trireme that came from nowhere and took him down.

 

[Depravo]

While we are at it, why do embarked units not get a chance to fight? I can understand a huge hit to strength but why are my paratroopers and infantry dying to barbarian triremes? Can't they defend themselves at all? Heck what about a Gunship? I was trying to explore a little and did not see the trireme that came from nowhere and took him down.

Uh... try maintaining local naval supremacy. Don't ZoCs work at sea?

 

[Tridus]

I think you guys are missing the joke. A SWORDSMAN nearly shot down a FIGHTER. What did it grow wings and fly? At least a spearsmen brigade might break the tanks treads or something.

It was pretty funny how quickly this thread went to spearmen vs tank when it's actually about swords vs airplanes.

Maybe those guys can throw their swords a long way?

 

[plaugeman]

You guys need to stop taking things so literally. This is a game, the units are abstractions. A swordsmen in the tank era is like a group of guerrillas, like in Afghanistan. Not a full strength division, but having some capability.

Its a game with such a broad scope there needs to be a TON of abstraction like this and bringing up stupid things like this just distracts from the real actual issues.

Black hawk down?

 

[Ayt]

Naval battles are worse. It took my submarine THREE ATTACKS to beat an enemy embarked worker. Huh?

It takes 3 attacks to bombard workers on land as well. I had a request from a city state to take care of barbarians and it turned out they were all workers. It took 9 turns for my destroyer to take them out.

 

[Slowpoke]

It was pretty funny how quickly this thread went to spearmen vs tank when it's actually about swords vs airplanes.

Maybe those guys can throw their swords a long way?

I'm thinking more vastly exaggerated anime style jumps. I can imagine like samurai jack going AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH *Slice slice slice* *fighter falling apart*

 

[highfive]

You guys need to stop taking things so literally. This is a game, the units are abstractions. A swordsmen in the tank era is like a group of guerrillas, like in Afghanistan. Not a full strength division, but having some capability.

Its a game with such a broad scope there needs to be a TON of abstraction like this and bringing up stupid things like this just distracts from the real actual issues.

Yes!

Lot's of QQ'ing on this forum for a game that's generally a lot of fun to play.

 

[TLF]

gpshaw: excellent idea! It is more realistic that you would "capture" a unit. Right now we can only capture settlers and workers, but a totally outclassed unit wouldn't fight back in real life. You wouldn't see a little raft try to fire arrows at a destroyer... more likely they'd just put up their hands or a white flag in surrender.

I mean, whatever happened to prisoners of war??? Maybe they could slowly convert so that they become a member of your empire... or maybe you can sell the useless units back to the civ that you are conquering in a little deal... i dunno... but cool idea.

It happened just a few years ago in the Persian Gulf I think.
Wasn't there an incident where some terrorist/freedomfighter/guerilla types used a motor launch (a very small 4 or 5 man boat) to attack a cruiser/destroyer or whatever it was.

I think people over value modern arms.

A guy with a knife could sneak up on any modern armament and disable it under the right circumstances.
If the guys in a tank don't lock the hatch, or they get out of the tank, etc.

Considering what the Vietnamese and Afghan's did to america it is clear that will, leadership and opportunity play a large part in this.
And, reasons why these things happen are besides the point. The point is that they happen.

___________

"It was pretty funny how quickly this thread went to spearmen vs tank when it's actually about swords vs airplanes.

Maybe those guys can throw their swords a long way?"

Of course, this is beyond any defense.

 

[Depravo]

It happened just a few years ago in the Persian Gulf I think.
Wasn't there an incident where some terrorist/freedomfighter/guerilla types used a motor launch (a very small 4 or 5 man boat) to attack a cruiser/destroyer or whatever it was.

I addressed this exact point just above. The fact that a handful of people can use old technology to damage a modern warship in harbour doesn't mean it should be possible to sink entire modern naval units (which represent more than a single ship) with hopelessly out-teched vessels. Because at sea if you're outmatched in range, speed and firepower you're toast. The only way you're even going to scratch their paint is through stealth, and on a strategic level that doesn't close the gap the way it can on land.

 

[Agent327]

I think you guys are missing the joke. A SWORDSMAN nearly shot down a FIGHTER. What did it grow wings and fly?

Actually the fighter got damaged attacking a city (a swordsman was in it); cities may have defenses - I don´t really see a problem.

Naval battles are worse. It took my submarine THREE ATTACKS to beat an enemy embarked worker. Huh?

That would be a really small target for a submarine to target (especially if it doesn´t have an on-deck machine gun).

It takes 3 attacks to bombard workers on land as well. I had a request from a city state to take care of barbarians and it turned out they were all workers. It took 9 turns for my destroyer to take them out.

Extreme example, but targeting tiny targets like single workers with destroyer guns wouldn´t be very effective. no.

And yes, this is a game. You get your basic archers to shoot 2 tiles; imagine the range that´d be in real life...

 

[Wolle68]

Civ 2's firepower and HP system pretty much made this a virtual impossibility. Best combat stat system they've ever had imo.

I also agree that ground units shouldn't be able to hurt aircraft, and modern ship stats are too low.

It's not that Firaxis doesn't know how to make a large difference between eras. It's that they simply didn't choose to.

 

[Disgustipated]

There is one problem with the argument: the spearmen got the tank crews when they were sleeping etc.

The problem is if you are attacking with your tank (or fighter or whatever) your crew isn't sleeping. They are obviously not sleeping, they are combat ready and on the move. You unit is never "sleeping"when you order it to attack. Now if you were defending in between turns you can make an argument the tank/fighter crew was sleeping, but not when you are attacking during your turn.

So I'm just not buying the argument that lesser units should defeat stronger units. At least not when the lesser units are defending. This should be fixed.

 

[Bibor]

Actually the fighter got damaged attacking a city (a swordsman was in it); cities may have defenses - I don´t really see a problem.

No, it was on a hill actually I cleared all the other units and cities in the area and the carrier was about to move, so I hit the swordsman to get exp.

 

[JanissaryRush]

Naval battles are worse. It took my submarine THREE ATTACKS to beat an enemy embarked worker. Huh?

It wouldn't be easy to torpedo people swimming.

 

[Me,myself,and,I]

They're on TRANSPORTS they should be dead meat.

 

[Depravo]

It wouldn't be easy to torpedo people swimming.

So you surface and rake them with MG fire as they thrash around in the water.

 

[Antmanbrooks]

What concerns me more is the fact that the AI actually still had a Swordsman against your Fighter?

 

[edpovi]

Gameplay > Realism.

Or, if you prefer, the fighter didn't clear the danger zone of his own bomb.