Specilist Stragety Help? Advice?

[seelk]

And GP joining cities:

Super Scientist: +9 beakers + 2 culture + 1 hammer
Super Merchant: +6 gold + 3 beakers + 2 culture + 1
Super Artist: +6 gold + 3 beakers + 14 culture
Super Priest: +5 gold + 3 hammer + 3 beakers + 2 culture
Super Engineer: +3 hammer + 6 beakers + 2 culture

Forgive my noob question but what do you mean by GP joining cities?

 

[Toastedzergling]

So what the verdict?

Cottage spam or mass specialists?

I am going to say cottage spam is the way to go, you don't need a financial leader to spam cottages but you absolutely need to be philosophical to spam specialists.

Merchanlism is pretty useless I think, the no foreign trade route penalty is huge as the foreign trade routes are so much more lucrative, free market is just one tech away and typically I don't bother to revolt unless I am spiritual. With harbors getting built on coastal cities, trade routes generates a lot of commerce and usually pay for maintainence costs alone.

Mass specialists relys heavily on early wonders, pyramids and pantheron. Getting both is pretty hard on Monarch, impossible on Emperor and above.

Mass specialists also become less and less effective during later games since it's harder and harder to get a GP out. On the other hand, cottage spam is getting more and more effecitive with villages and towns are worked up and techs such as printing press and demoncracy to get even more $$$.

Mass specialists citis are bigger than cottage spamming cities, that means more happiness and health issues, more maintainence costs and more time to grow the city.

Okay I admit I haven't played one mass specialists game yet, it's probably a lot of fun to play but cottage spam is still the way to go if you want to win the game faster.

Last thought, maybe it's worthwhile to develop a hybrid strategy in which you aim for 10-15 GP first and then cottage spams after that.

 

[Toastedzergling]

Forgive my noob question but what do you mean by GP joining cities?

A great people can join a city as a super specialist, he eats no food but gives lots of beakers, coins, hammers or culture points. If you have no other good ways to use a GP, it's a good idea to let him join your best city.

 

[GABB]

Forgive my noob question but what do you mean by GP joining cities?

Each GP can:
- Give you instant beakers to a Tech.
- Be added to a city like super-specialist.
- Start a Golden Age (with others GP)

If you add a super-specialist, you gain something per turn:

Super-Scientist - 6 Beakers + 1 Hammer
Super-Prophet - 5 Gold + 2 Hammer
Super-Merchant - 6 Gold + 1 Food
Super-Artist - 12 culture + 3 Gold
Super-Engi - 3 Beakers + 3 Hammers

and Super-specialist receive specialists bonus (Sistine, Anchor, Representation,....)

 

[DarkFyre99]

So what the verdict?

Cottage spam or mass specialists?

On average, Cottage "spam" is a better strategy. The specialist strategy literally requires the Representation civic, which in turns requires you building the Pyramids.

I am going to say cottage spam is the way to go, you don't need a financial leader to spam cottages but you absolutely need to be philosophical to spam specialists.

I'm on my third game trying the specialist strategy, and the Pyramids are essential to this strategy. I'd say that Industrial is by far the better choice of traits, since with it you might also be able to get the Parthenon, and combine it with the Pacifism civic. Philosophical is a lesser choice for traits, since you're pretty much gambling on having early access to stone.

Merchanlism is pretty useless I think, the no foreign trade route penalty is huge as the foreign trade routes are so much more lucrative, free market is just one tech away and typically I don't bother to revolt unless I am spiritual. With harbors getting built on coastal cities, trade routes generates a lot of commerce and usually pay for maintainence costs alone.

One thing to consider is that you're not going to be using your commerce to fuel your gold production or your research. You will be using your commerce to produce "culture"... or more accurately, you'll be pumping up your culture slider to produce happiness, since happiness is an even greater limitation on growth in this strategy than normal.

Sure, you might get three or four commerce out of your larger cities with Free Trade, but compare that with a free specialist, who is producing the equivalent of six commerce to your city, as well as an extra three GPP, and maybe two culture as well, with the Sistine Chapel.

And let's not forget that half of that extra commerce will be going strait into culture, since you need the happiness a high percentage of culture brings.

Once Environmentalism comes along, it would probably be worthwhile to switch to that civic.

Mass specialists relys heavily on early wonders, pyramids and pantheron. Getting both is pretty hard on Monarch, impossible on Emperor and above.

I'll take your word for it... but the Parthenon isn't critical to this strategy, just a nice bonus.

Mass specialists also become less and less effective during later games since it's harder and harder to get a GP out. On the other hand, cottage spam is getting more and more effecitive with villages and towns are worked up and techs such as printing press and demoncracy to get even more $$$.

The strength of the specialist strategy isn't the production of GPs. It's strength is getting an early tech lead, because you're producing tons of research rather than waiting around for your cottages to mature, and the necessary civics and techs to make those cottages shine. With an early tech lead, you can crush your opponents militarily.

It's kind of ironic that currently my troops are overwhelming Catherine's forces, and I'm currently running the Pacifism civic. My musketeers are making fast work of her longbowmen and swordsmen, and I'll soon have access to cavalry rather than knights.

Remember, a pair of cottages take a long time to grow, during which time your specialist is pumping out a lot of research and/or gold. It takes about 40 turns after two cottages reach town size for them to catch up with a specialist... this is before printing press and free speech, of course. In other words, I'm talking about "vanilla" cottages.

Mass specialists citis are bigger than cottage spamming cities, that means more happiness and health issues, more maintainence costs and more time to grow the city.

You bet. But these problems aren't insurmountable.

Okay I admit I haven't played one mass specialists game yet, it's probably a lot of fun to play but cottage spam is still the way to go if you want to win the game faster.

Actually, I think it's the other way around. You should have the game pretty much sown up before your opponents research liberalism... and the investments they placed in all those cottages finally mature.

Last thought, maybe it's worthwhile to develop a hybrid strategy in which you aim for 10-15 GP first and then cottage spams after that.

Not really... specialists and cottages require entirely different civics to maximize their potential.

Also note, the specialist strategy isn't really for getting Great People, because GP farms are nearly as effective. It's for getting an very early tech lead by not having to wait around for those cottages to mature. Remember, it takes two "vanilla" cottages 110 turns to produce the same amount of research and/or gold that one specialist can produce under Representation.

 

[kniteowl]

Yes that's pre-comupters tech once you research computers Anchor is obsolete

 

[Nares]

In regards to having multiple GP capable cities vs a single GP farm, that's really a distinction between low GP costs and high GP costs. Once you've generated enough Great People, the cost becomes high enough that you'll want fewer cities dedicated to producing them. Eventually, only one with National Epic will be viable for producing Great People.

But in the early game, you can produce multiple GPs from multiple cities, and it seems to me to be the better choice. Added to this is that, in the early game, your Great People Points are far more reliant on wonders (World or National) than later in the game, when you can run high specialist cities due to tech improvements such as Civil Service, Biology, etc.

Also important to note is that you can specialize GP cities. Organizing wonders and their rogue GPP is key. But, when you're really hoping for a Great Scientist and a Great Artist pops because your GS city (running multiple Scientist specialists) has National Epic (or The Parthenon, or other wonders) in it is a pain. You can micromanage these cities to have 100% chances to produce a given GP type.

Additionally, you'll be hard pressed to run certain GP specific cities. Great Merchants are harder to produce before Caste System (and you may not want to run Caste System at all if you've got your stuff under control). The only wonders I can recall that produce GMP are The Great Lighthouse and The Collossus, at least at this early point in the game. Further, Great Engineers are generally even harder to force production of. The Pyramids, The Hanging Gardens and The Hagia Sophia are the earlier game GE producing wonders. It's moderatly difficult to build them all in the same city (they come fairly close together, meaning you need one city to string them 1-2-3, with little time to build infrastructure or else you miss the wonder). Compounding this is that Caste System does not allow for free GEs. Forges are the only other way to generate GEP at this point, and they only allow one per city. It can be done (building the afforementioned wonders in a single city), but requires a good deal of coordination, both in terms of tech progression and build orders.

 

[Maniac]

When I try a specialist strategy, later in the game I run into the problem that due to producing many GPs, the GPP cost of one increases much faster than the numbers of research beakers or hammers you get when using that great person, making the entire game strategy profitable after a while. What do you guys do in such a situation?

 

[cabert]

about GP generation

i like an average way
not relying totally on the GP farm and not trying to make everything equal

I have some diffuse GPP in some (not that much in fact, usually 2 or 3, without mercantilism, everywhere with it) cities, and those would be wasted if i used the GP farm at max GP output.

So i use GP farm in food deficit when it goes for the next GP, and immediately after, i switch to growth mode for the gp farm (using as much tiles as possible) while i push GP generation in another city (the one with the most GP points already in) through food deficit. When the next GP comes out (or when the GP farm hits a cap), i put back the gp farm into full GP point generation...

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

When I try a specialist strategy, later in the game I run into the problem that due to producing many GPs, the GPP cost of one increases much faster than the numbers of research beakers or hammers you get when using that great person, making the entire game strategy profitable after a while. What do you guys do in such a situation?

Win before then?

My feeling is that trying to apply a specialist strategy is going to start breaking down in the Renaissance (Emancipation), and collapse during the Industrial Era (Biology). Up to that point, it may be viable, provided that when a city has contributed its last GP, that you start changing it over to commerce. Specialists may or may not hold their own against cottages, but I find that math very difficult to support if you are wasting the GP points.

As the marginal utility of the GP falls, the payoff of the golden age grows - especially if you have towns and are running US - so you'll want to be heading that direction anyway.

 

[GABB]

On average, Cottage "spam" is a better strategy. The specialist strategy literally requires the Representation civic, which in turns requires you building the Pyramids. .

I disagree. “better” is a “hard” word. If you play MP games, I will send some small pillagers teams (Axe + Chariot, X-bow + HA, Musketman + Knigth, Machine Gun + Cav), which are difficult to kill (without lose counter attackers) and destroy your village or mature towns to cottages (or nothing). About SP, AI is principally pillager, but in my experience without cottages AI try less pillages, and in case of it, you can repair a farm almost immediately without much damage in your economy.

Cottage Spam is GOOD strategy, but (IMO) is vulnerable. Also, Pyramid isn’t a MUST in specialist strategy. However, you can take it from your neighbor… …. Pyramid is a great advantage, but, in my case, I can win without it (Prince only, not yet in Monarch). About Representation Civic, this is a good civic, and Cottage Spam needs US + Free Speech (two civics), denying Bureaucracy, Vassalage or Nationhood. In my case, I like Nationhood because +2 Happy faces per barracks help a lot and I draft citizens to renew my army in my Globe Theater City (good in peace time, best in war time).

I'm on my third game trying the specialist strategy, and the Pyramids are essential to this strategy. I'd say that Industrial is by far the better choice of traits, since with it you might also be able to get the Parthenon, and combine it with the Pacifism civic. Philosophical is a lesser choice for traits, since you're pretty much gambling on having early access to stone. .

I agree. However, GP is a bonus, not the target of specialist strategy.

One thing to consider is that you're not going to be using your commerce to fuel your gold production or your research. You will be using your commerce to produce "culture"... or more accurately, you'll be pumping up your culture slider to produce happiness, since happiness is an even greater limitation on growth in this strategy than normal.


Sure, you might get three or four commerce out of your larger cities with Free Trade, but compare that with a free specialist, who is producing the equivalent of six commerce to your city, as well as an extra three GPP, and maybe two culture as well, with the Sistine Chapel.


And let's not forget that half of that extra commerce will be going strait into culture, since you need the happiness a high percentage of culture brings.

I absolutely agree.

 

[kniteowl]

Just Wondering When I was playing a game with this stragety I was never sure when to change from Slavery to Cast System I usually Research Codes of Law Relatively Early, either Via Oracle or Researching the tech myself.

So my question is when using the specilist stragety when is it best time to change civics from Slavery to Cast System During the early ages Ancient/Clasical Ages to use each civic to it's max?

I usually change immediately once I get the Piramids and change to Representation and Cast system at the same time and realize it's not a good decision becuase I'm still expanding and my cities are generally too small to support Specilist. It's Alot Easier playing with either Gandi or Saladan becuase if i make this mistake i can chnage back or go to auto-save lol.

but this decision counts alot more if your not a Spiritual Civ, Any ideas guys? When is the best time to change from slavery to cast system with this stragety? when you finish Most of your expansion? when your Cities are running near their Happinss limit?

Any input would be gladly appreciated.

 

[Xenophonos]

Usually I switch from Slavery to Caste System pretty much immediately. The benefit from Slavery is production. By the time I get Caste System, I have already built 2-3 mines per city (of course my production city has more). When you're running specialists, lay off the mines. Use the mines when you need production.

Of course, like everything else with this game, it depends on your situation. For example, let's say you can't find any good mining spots for any of your cities but food isn't really a problem. You might want to run slavery for quite a long time to help whip hammers for those necessary buildings, which will allow you to assign more specialists in these gp cities and give you the production for military buildup.

 

[obsolete]

The benefit from Slavery is production.

Not really. It COULD be one if that's what your choice is though.

I like switching to slavery as soon as I get it, even though I don't plan to ever use it to whip people. Slavery is cheaper than the default you get when you start out, and THAT is the benefit no matter what your other early intentions are.

 

[MrCynical]

So what the verdict?

Cottage spam or mass specialists?

Has been asked several times previously, and I've always ended up at the same conclusion:

The specialist strategy is generally quicker to get up and running than cottage spamming, so it usually gives a boost to research in the Classical and early Middle ages. Once cottages are fully grown to towns and Free Speech is available though specialists are worse at research than cottages, period. You can't get more than 6 base beakers from a specialist, whereas a town gives 7 base commerce (or eight with Financial). In any case, until Biology is invented you're going to be looking at trading off two towns for a specialist. Another issue is that the larger cities required for the specialist strategy tend to cause more health and happiness problems (though given the majority of your research is not coming from commerce you could just push the culture slider very high with minimal loss). At high difficulty levels there is also a major issue that without the Pyramids your research rate is slashed in half, and getting this wonder is by no means guaranteed. Without it, and the Representation it allows, specialists do not get a significant boost to research even in the earliest stages.

On the plus side you do get a few more great people (maybe around 4 extra over the first three ages), and you have slightly more control over their type than a cottage spammer. Personally I don't find this adequate payback.

The cottage strategy gets off to a slower start than the specialist strategy (assuming the specialist player got the Pyramids), so it may fall slightly behind in research for a while. At around Liberalism though the cottage spammer research will rapidly overtake that of the specialist researcher. If two civs of roughly equal size reach Liberalism, one with cottage spam and one with specialists, the cottage spammer has basically won.

The downside is most noticeable is multiplayer, in that the cottage spammer is more vulnerable to pillaging. However I feel people overblow this issue. Someone who allows their heartland to be pillaged, regardless of how it is improved, deserves to lose, and all this indicates is the need for a strong border defense. The AI is of course not competant enough to spot this weakness, so this is a non-issue in single player.

The conclusion I alwasy reach is as follows; if you intend to win the game, or at least get in a hugely dominant position before Liberalism, by means of early warfare, then specialists may be the better choice. For a game spanning all the ages though, cottage spam is much more effective. Specialists are slightly better in multiplayer, but the fact still remains that if you reach Liberalism and have a cottage spammer of the same size and competance left, you'll fall miles behind in tech very quickly. Specialists are for short games, especially short multiplayer games that will never get to Liberalism. Otherwise they're a weaker strategy.

 

[GABB]

...Another issue is that the larger cities required for the specialist strategy tend to cause more health and happiness problems (though given the majority of your research is not coming from commerce you could just push the culture slider very high with minimal loss)...

When your cities reach the happiness limit and you start to use your culture slider, you must trade: giving Luxuries and receiving Health resources.

Good post…

 

[TyBoy]

An example:

Suppose Philosophical civ + Parthenon + Pacifism.

- 5 cities (each with 3 specialists) produce 14 GP in 100 turns.
- 1 city (with 5 specialists + NE) produce 10 GP in 100 turn.

4 more GP in 100 turns is great (IMO).

To support 3 specialists you need +6 food, this is:

- 6-7 grassland farms (18-21 food/turn and 9-10 population).
- 2 sea resources (10 food and 5 population).
- 3 floodplain farms (12 food and 6 population).
- 2 5-food-resources (10 food and 5 population).

To support 5 specialists you need +6 food, this is:

- 10-11 grassland farms (30-33 food/turn and 15-16 population).
- 3 sea resources + 1 Farm (18 food and 9 population).
- 5 floodplain farms (20 food and 10 population).
- 3 5-food-resources + 1 Farm (18 food and 9 population).

This is a little misleading in support of spreading your GPP out. For one thing, you're running every other GPP booster besides National Epic, thus mitigating the effect of national epic, even in the city where you do build it. If for various reasons you can't do some or all of philosophical/parthenon/pacifism the balance shifts more and more back towards one city.
Secondly, it should look something more like this:

To support 15 specialists you need +30 food spread over 5 cities, this is:

- 30-35 grassland farms (18-21 food/turn and 9-10 population per city).
- 10 sea resources (10 food and 5 population per city).
- 15 floodplain farms (12 food and 6 population per city).
- 10 5-food-resources (10 food and 5 population per city).

To support 5 specialists you need +10 food, this is:

- 10-11 grassland farms (30-33 food/turn and 15-16 population).
- 3 sea resources + 1 Farm (18 food and 9 population).
- 5 floodplain farms (20 food and 10 population).
- 3 5-food-resources + 1 Farm (18 food and 9 population).

IMO the real benefit of spreading them out is not needing caste system while still being able to pretty much choose what sort of GP you want. This is especially significant if you want engineers, as you can pretty much run as many of the other types as you could want but running more than 1 engineer specialist has to wait until pretty darn late in the game.

 

[Xenophonos]

Not really. It COULD be one if that's what your choice is though.

Concerning using whipping for production.

Yes, that is the whole point of the slavery civic...the ability to whip it, whip it good.
It's not too late... to IT!

 

[obsolete]

BTW, wasn't there a bug in the first version of Civ IV that if you whipped too much, units never got out of the unhappiness mode? By default I think it's 6 turns of unhappiness.

 

[actionmedia]

I find this strategy very usefull if you aim for cultural victory. Combined with some religion founding and some wonder building, you can win cultural victory before someone starts Apolo Program. I did won a cultural victory before 1900 on prince, but I know I playied really bad. I think is possible to reach cultural victory before 1800 on prince and before 1900 on higher level.
I used to play as Saladin (Philosophical and Spiritual)