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Specilist Stragety Help? Advice?

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by kniteowl, May 14, 2006.

  1. Toastedzergling

    Toastedzergling Chieftain

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    Okay I did some "in-depth" analysis,

    In ancient times, most cities are limited by happyness or health, so you can only have a size x city at a given time.

    Let's say you have 3 citizens ready to work for you and you have three "vanila" grassland tiles.

    If you put cottages on all three, you can get 6 food and 3 commerce, after a mere 10 turns on normal speed, you get 6 food and 6 commerce

    If you farm two tiles and have a scientist working for you, you get 6 food and 3 beakers (which is equivalent to 3 commerce), with pyramid/representation, you get 6 beakers.

    At this point, it's more or less a tie, but after 20 turns, the hamlet grows to village and the cottage spammers get more from these three citizens easily. The only thing specialist strategist has advantage is 3 great people points (6 if philosophical), but these gpp are likely to be wasted because if this is a minor city, chances are you might not get a single great people out of this city for the whole game:eek:

    Cottage spammer wins :goodjob: of course in multiplayer games this strategy is easily foiled by pillaging however when combating AI, cottage spam is always better than the farm/specialist build
     
  2. GABB

    GABB Warlord

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    Not true if you balance your GPP in the most cities....
     
  3. Toastedzergling

    Toastedzergling Chieftain

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    Balance GPP in many cities is less efficient than a single GP farm city, again, lots of GPP are wasted, the effect of national epic is weakened. During the progress of the game great people are less and less effective, let's say you get your 10th great scientist in 1900AD, he will be pretty much useless, you'll probably run out of good academy sites, and your empire generates so many beakers per turn that burning him for 1500 beakers toward a tech is also pretty much pointless. On the other hand, your first great scientist can save your many many turns for a key tech, can build academy in your capital and let you enjoy many more beakers per turn for the rest of the game:goodjob: The goal of generating great people is to get the early ones as fast as possible not to generate as many as possible for the entire game. One single GP farm is way efficient than 5-10 cities making them in a slow speed.
     
  4. actionmedia

    actionmedia Chieftain

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    No. They are not wasted. If GPP are balanced, all Cities producing GPP will produce a GP during the game.

    You may be surprized but with this strategy, actualy you can produce GP faster (earlier in the game) than using a GP Farm. A GP Farm need time and resources (health and appiness) to grow but with 5 or 6 specialist cities you can produce one GP every 10 -15 turns from classical (CoL) to industrial period.
     
  5. GABB

    GABB Warlord

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    actionmedia said it....:lol: .... 1 GPF start to be quicker than each balenced GPF until you reach Literature and built NE. Only 1 GPF MUST be a city with high food resources and usually isn't a good production city (NE take much time to be built)... Try it, you will be surprized...:eek:
     
  6. cabert

    cabert Big mouth

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    in fact you can't build a GP Farm very early.
    Early GP come from wonders or "low level" specialists (meaning 1 or 2, in a city).
    That's why stonehenge and/or oracle tend to produce loads of priests.
    If you don't want those priests anymore you must build a GP farm with more than double GPP than the wonders' city.
     
  7. actionmedia

    actionmedia Chieftain

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    I don't mind ever getting a Great Prophet. Even if I don't have a holy city, it's +2 H and +5 Gold makes him the best super specialist. Adding G Prophets as superspecialists, help me run 100% science for a long time.
     
  8. cabert

    cabert Big mouth

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    well, i like artists more if i go for cultural, i like engineers more in any situation, and can find a good use for merchants too
     
  9. GABB

    GABB Warlord

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    ...and with access to stone, Angkor Wat isn't bad option, turning priest into engi's with +1 gold and superpriest into superengi's with +5 gold instead +3 beakers... not bad...:goodjob:
     
  10. obsolete

    obsolete Deity

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    I did a test the other day. Monarch level, I made a civilian as an engineer in each city hoping to gain many early engineers. Turned out to be a big loser.
     
  11. KrikkitTwo

    KrikkitTwo Immortal

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    Well quick analysis on various levels
    1. Early game (no Pyr)
    Per Tile
    Cottage:1-4
    Specialist (Farm): 1.5+1.5 GPP*
    Pyr Specialist : 3+1.5 GPP*
    Per pop unit
    Cottage:1-4
    Specialist: 1+1 GPP*
    Pyr Specialist: 2 c+1 GPP*

    At this stage you must rely on those GPP and earlier growth to make up the difference (and early on they can)

    2. Representation+Pacifism (and Free Speech, PP)
    Per Tile
    Towns:7
    Specialist : 3+3 GPP

    Per Pop unit
    Towns: 7
    Specialist: 2 c + 2 GPP


    3. Biology
    Per Tile
    Towns:7
    Specialist : 6+6 GPP

    Per Pop unit
    Towns: 7
    Specialist: 3 +3 GPP

    Now by late game on a per tile basis it is basically OK as compared with cottages


    A few thoughts on how to do it
    the Specialist Empire's cities will have

    The Grasslands, Plains, and Floodplains farmed, the Grassland and Floodplains (and the Plains post-biology) will be the tiles you are working while running specialists.

    Hills will all be mined (a windmill cannot support specialists).. so when your specialist city needs to switch to production it can just put the specialists on the Hills.

    Forests may be left for Lumbermills (or Environmental Happiness) if your population doesn't reach high enough to need the extra farms

    Nationhood is probably the best Law Civic (Bureaucreacy only gives a Bonus to Commerce not to the Gold/Research that you are producing with specialists... and most Commerce is wasted on Culure for Happiness).. it is low maintenance and the happiness will help

    Environmentalism becomes better than Mercantilism once you have more than 3 unhealth in your cities. (a free Specialist is worth about 3 Food)

    You should have some production towns for units and , these ones get the Forges, Factories, Powerplants... Don't put them in your other cities, the ones that are specialized for Specialists.

    Key buildings are Granary, Health Buildings, Theater, Broadcast Tower, Colluseum.

    Key tech is Biology (at this point you rival Towns)

    A key strategy may be planting Super specialists for Wall Street and Oxford towns.

    Also specializing Cities in general, some produce only Scientists, so no Banks there, no Markets or Groceries unless happy/Health is an issue




    Because of the nature of this you need Either Philosophical (to make the early GPP pay off) OR Industrious (to get the Pyramids for Representation to get the science benefit)
     
  12. actionmedia

    actionmedia Chieftain

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    Hmmm..., you mean only one specialist per city, while you already have forges? Your cities should be at least size 6 or 7 by that time. So it would permit you to hire 4 or 5 specialits.
    Ofcourse, you can not hire more than one engineer per city but you can hire other specialists? Why would you want to have an army of engineers? To speed up the GE you should build pyramids and hanghing gardens and eventualy Hagia Sophia. Hire one engineer and another specialist and you will get a 2 or 3 GE before the Industrial Era.

    This strategy is not for producing an army of GEs. With Caste Sistem you can hire unlimited scientist, merchant and artist. This are your early GP.
     
  13. cabert

    cabert Big mouth

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    i can see why you would want GEs, but one specialist per city is leading you nowhere.
    what you can try (with lots of unwanted other GPs) is to always leave one Engineer specialist in your GP farm(s), this way you can get one or two GE in the whole game.
    Of course, hanging gardens and pyramids give you easier access to GE.
    The only way to get a good GE farm is to put the forges + ironworks (+factory+power) in one city. preferably in the same city where you have built pyramids, hanging gardens, pentagon, 3 gorges damm, west point.
    gives you access to 1 PE point from IW, plus 4 (1 from the forge and 3 from IW) possible engineer specialists. After factory is built you can have up to 6 engineer specialists.
    It's somewhat a lost production though.
     
  14. mutax2003

    mutax2003 Rider of China, 4-3-3

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    The goal of specialist strategy is to leverage your early tech lead, and conquer to your way to dominance befor renaissance (i.e. liberalism). With your empire spanning twice the size or larger of your next rival and running represesentation, you should be able to keep up with cottagers. However, if you are content to sit back and have a rival cottage spamming empire of similar size to develop, then you will most likely lose the game.
     
  15. GABB

    GABB Warlord

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    If you want a lot of engineers you must sacrifice some GP in the entire game. I remember that I get 5-6 great engineers before Indrutrial Era.

    Played with Bismark.
    Complete Pyramid in Berlin
    Add the first GE to Berlin
    Build Hanging Garden in Berlin
    Add the second GE to Berlin
    Build forge in Berlin and assign 1 engineer
    Build NE in Berlin
    Add the third GE to Berlin
    Build Hagia Sophia in Berlin
    Add all de GE to Berlin
    *
    *
    *
    Build Pentagon – Three Gorge Dam – IW and West Point in Berlin

    This game (Monarch/Continent/Ramdom Civs) was lost… :lol: …. But for "bad diplomatic decisions" and "bad war management". I remember that Berlin was able to build Macemans in 1 turn (Epic Speed) but I decided to defend instead attack…. bzzzz … great mistake….:sad:

    I think I must add GE with Industrious civs. They gain bonus to build wonder and do it with a GE is a waste (IMO). Adding them, They make that city a great production city…:goodjob:
     
  16. Olleus

    Olleus Deity

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    What about a sea based economy.

    Build all of your cities of the coast and get the great lighthouse + the collosus, which are usualy easy to get. Now get as many people as you can wokring sea squares which are goin to be producing 2-3 commerce each. Thats more than specialists (6 commerce / 3 (1 specialist + 2 farms)), and its as much as a village without having to wait for it to grow.

    I used this strategy when I was playing with Caesar on Monarch. Worked a treat. The commerce was more than enough to put my science back up to 80% in 700AD, after I had conquered 2 civs. After a miedeival war I beelined to democracy, starting pumping those cottages (now growing twice as fast) on my newly conquered land. Got cavalry quickly (very close to democracy on the tech tree), took out another civ and then let my economy recover (I was at 30% science at this point) until tanks. As soon as I got them I finished with a domination win circa 1850. This was on a huge fractal map.

    This would work even better with Huyana Capac. Quecha/Aggressive for early rush plus financial for extra sea commerce.
     
  17. VirusMonster

    VirusMonster Quechua General

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    Very good thread, one of the best I have read for a long time.

    I play many deity games(l lose almost always) and want to develop a hybrid strategy between semi-farming and semi-cottages. My problem is that my cities grow so slow that little of my cottages get worked on, so I will put more farms up on my next games initially and slowly switch to cottages once population reaches happiness&health limits. I definitely think a quick library for the 2 scientists GP grow is a great idea, much better than waiting for the cottages to grow.

    Even on deity, getting Pyramids without Industrious is possible if you have stone nearby. If you have copper, go for Colossus, if Marble go for partheneon. I think the land resources will determine which wonders you should go for and one should not set strict plans for wonder building. Adapting to surroundings, I think, is best tactic. Since you can hurry and chop some early wonders even if your leader does not have the Industrious trait, I would suggest getting a Philosophical leader for a GPP strategy.
     
  18. KrikkitTwo

    KrikkitTwo Immortal

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    One thing to note: the "per population measurement" is slightly off, because a specialist strategy will have more farms and therefore will more quickly reach the population maximum.

    Also when Drama is researched, the happiness cap is rarely relevant (+10 happiness with no buildings +25 with Theaters and Colluseums).. Health then becomes the only real concern, until Emancipation.
     
  19. VirusMonster

    VirusMonster Quechua General

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    I agree especially the early ones you get should be added to the city, later ones can be used to hurry maybe, but still joining them is very good idea for the 3hammer3research.
     

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