*Spoiler2* Gotm23-Arabs - End of Middle Ages or Submit

[Megalou]

Quote from Mad-Bax:

"I should have been able to trade my middle age techs to them (for republic). They couldn't have them already as they didn't have currency. No-one had feudalism except me anyway so Rome couldn't possibly trade for them on the inter turn."

I know for a fact that for Rome only Republic is a required tech. Maybe currency then is not required, and Rome had skipped researching it? Would be nice if anyone could confirm this. It was not at all a stupid question. Myself, I tried to trade free tech from Persia and found that they were not scientific. Weird, too.

Congratulations to all fast winners. Great learning experience for a poor warrior like me. I don't think I will post despite a fair game by my standards. I was particularly intrigued by the one dominator, I think it was Snaga, who decided not to build temples. Despite being irreligious, I'm too much of a softie to refrain from that.

 

[cracker]

Originally posted by Megalou
... I know for a fact that for Rome only Republic is a required tech. Maybe currency then is not required, and Rome had skipped researching it? Would be nice if anyone could confirm this.

Megalou, I am not 100% sure what you are saying here but this post definately seems confused and/or confusing.

"I know for a fact" is a phrase your should avoid using in total speculative discussions.

In this case you cannot know for a fact the Republic was a required tech for Rome becuase this is definately false. It is not possible through normal means to make a tech required fro one civ and then not required for the others and vice versa.

 

[mad-bax]

I am still confused by this, to the extent that I have invalidated any small chance I had to submit this game. I can only believe it is a mod.

Monarchy and Republic were optional techs for the Arabs. Rome had every tech except currency and Monarchy. I gave currency to Rome specifically to be able to buy Republic. I am now going to use the phrase "I know for a fact" that Rome did not get either monotheism or feudalism on the interturn. So why do I not even get the option to trade them?

I only want to know if it is a mod or not. Because if not, then it will affect my decision process in gifting the AI into an era change in the unmodded version of the game.

If cracker was able to answer this question ATM I hope he would have done so, but maybe he knows the answer and will be kind enough to furnish me with it after the submission date.

 

[CdB]

Originally posted by tao
I seem to be the exception:

tao (Predator) chivalry 230AD - victory 720AD

CdB (Open) Chivalry 510 AD - victory 1220 AD

I think it is down to the play-style and level rather then class

 

[tao]

mad-bax: Because the behaviour of the game regarding which free tech is given to scientific civs is significantly different between 1.29 and PtW, the relative player performance would be falsified.

Thus in the GOTMs the AI trait of scientific is replaced by another trait. You may e.g. notice Persian scouts.

 

[cracker]

Mad Bax,

The issue with scientific civs is twofold in your question.

First, Rome is not and has never been scientific, so Rome has nothing to do with the question. I am not sure how trading with Rome is germain to the discussion, but you may have me confused.

The problem with scientific civs is that Firaxis implemented a change to the software that got inserted into the v1.21 patch for PTW but which actually should have been a patch to the basic Civ3 game. This change effects the distribution of how scientific civs get given free technologies when they enter into the next age. The patch change speeds up the game by an average of 6 turns per era change and gives and unfair advantage to players in the PTW v1.21 and v1.27 patches. Essentially it was another feature that made PTW easier to play when comparing games.

You will find that most GOTM games will not have multiple scientific civs in place in the game with the scientific trait turned on for all those civs at one time. No player will know in advance specifically which of those civs may be scientific so there is no preconcieved advantage that can be exploited in advance without paying attention to what is actually happening in the game.

In this game, Persia was Expansionist and Industrious to give them at least some chance of keeping pace though contacts and hut yielded benefits even though the built in decisions in the Ai programming do not seem to make much progress.

(I do not know how this relates to your process of invalidating your ability to submit this game. You have no disadvantage compared to any other player.)

 

[SirPleb]

Originally posted by tao
It is also better to compare turns, not years:
Snaga: 30
gozpel: 34
SirPleb: 47
tao: 48

Also, note that Snaga's victory seems to be conquest, not domination, which is very impressive indeed at such an early date!

There may also be a tiny discrepancy in turn counts due to what's being reported as the victory date - the date one finishes vs. the turn after as reported by the game. (I always report turn after date.)

 

[mad-bax]

Originally posted by cracker
Mad Bax,

(I do not know how this relates to your process of invalidating your ability to submit this game. You have no disadvantage compared to any other player.)

Thanks for the response. I think I understand it now. FYI I was that frustrated that I ripped my save with an editor to check if Rome had any MA techs. Thus my game is invalid.

 

[dales]

Mad Bax, Cracker,

Did anyone ever figure out an answer to what happened here?

On entry to the MA I didn't have either Monarchy or Republic.
Rome was the only Civ with Republic, but lacked currency to get to the MA. This may sound stupid but I just can't get my head around it. I sold them currency, so on the next turn I should have been able to trade my middle age techs to them (for republic). They couldn't have them already as they didn't have currency. No-one had feudalism except me anyway so Rome couldn't possibly trade for them on the inter turn. Any road up, the diplomacy screen didn't show either monotheism or Feudalism as available to trade. Why? It's really bugging me, though it's probably a stupid question and going to get the answer it deserves.

If I am reading this correctly, then the question was not over if Rome was scientific or not. Here is what I am reading (and I may be reading this wrong)

1) Mad Bax had all Ancient Age techs except Monarchy and Republic, which he did not need to enter the Middle Ages.

2) Mad Bax had Feudalism and Monotheism.

3) No other civ had Feudalism (although by implication I am assuming that means some did have Monotheism).

4) Mad Bax sold Rome currency, which was all they needed from the Ancient Age. This should have moved them to the Middle Ages.

5) On the next turn, Mad Bax checked, because he wanted to try to trade those Middle Age techs to Rome for The Republic. When he did, he found that those techs were not listed as available to trade to Rome.

I assume the only way this could have happened is that on the turn, some other civ learned Feudalism, and Rome traded to get both Feudalism and Monotheism. Of course, if Mad Bax is claiming that all the other civs still did not have Feudalism, then???

It sounds like Mad Bax took a guess that somehow Rome had been modded to make Currency not be a required tech for them, and that maybe they had gone on to research Middle Age techs without ever getting Currency. Cracker has said it is not possible to make a tech be not required for one civ but required for others, so this couldn't be it.

 

[fourknee]

Originally posted by SirPleb

Also, note that Snaga's victory seems to be conquest, not domination, which is very impressive indeed at such an early date!

Not having played Civ III long and just got into GOTM. My victory was conquest as well - I captured all towns, though seeing many of the maps of domination wins, how does it tell the difference.

I was actually thinking a some point in my game I would come up with a domination win, but it never happened and I got a conquest once I wiped out the last town.

I saw the reasoning of land mass versus total land/sea squares, but can someone dumb it down using this game as an example?

 

[Snaga]

Originally posted by SirPleb

Also, note that Snaga's victory seems to be conquest, not domination, which is very impressive indeed at such an early date!

There may also be a tiny discrepancy in turn counts due to what's being reported as the victory date - the date one finishes vs. the turn after as reported by the game. (I always report turn after date.)

Thanks SirPleb. Yes, my finish date, the turn after taking the last town, was 250AD for a conquest victory.

I think I could have completed domination around about the same time, perhaps slightly later, if that had been my goal. I went for conquest because I didn't want to bother managing all the temples and settlers needed to fill in the gaps. Also I chose to avoid the tournament goal, in a blatant attempt to improve my medal chances for a fastest finish.

I'm guessing that for finishes before around 300AD conquest is probably faster, and later than that domination would be, although for Open and Conquest class the crossover date would be later, as the ai would not have expanded as far.

 

[Snaga]

Originally posted by fourknee


I saw the reasoning of land mass versus total land/sea squares, but can someone dumb it down using this game as an example?

Domination is triggered when you achieve both 2/3 of world population and your territory covers 2/3 of land tiles. Coast and lake tiles are considered to be land for this calculation.

Use the mapstat utility to check how close you are to the limits. Handy for both reaching domination, and for avoiding it if you are after a different victory condition.

 

[Greebley]

The ancient age

I entered the middle ages with most of Carthage gone and a big chunk taken out of Egypt. I continued being very agressive starting wars soon after the end of the last one. It is very rare that I will end a gaime without entering the industrial age. This is mostly because I think the industrial age is my favorite part of the game.

I was pretty satisfied with my result even though it doesnt' really compare to the really fast times played. It is however useful to read how they were played as it shows how I could possibly improve my times in the future. In this game I tried using archers, and I just don't think that worked as well. Better to spend the early years gaining a solid set of towns and then use cash upgrades of warriors or horsemen.

90 BC: Get a great leader (1 of only 2)
30 BC: Hanging Gardens built (using great leader). Starts my golden age (I have taken Colossus and Great Library from egypt). Getting a golden age from wonders has also been pretty rare for me.
70 AD: Egypt Eliminated from the game.
110 AD: Declare war on Carthage.
290 AD: Carthage Eliminated from the game.
320 AD: Build SunTzu. Declare war on the Zulu.
530 AD: Zulu destroyed. Declare war on Spain.
660 AD: Spain Destroyed. Declare war on the Ottomans who are being destroyed by Rome to get some of their cities.
780 AD: Most units are heading toward France. After an only semi-serious attempt for the Ottoman capitol doesn't "get lucky". I make peace and allow them to keep their capitol.
820 AD: Declare war on france. Take Paris and get the pyramids.
840 AD: Paris flips back despite a goodly number of units in it. The problem with lots of units to prevent flips is if it isn't enough. Bummer.
950 AD: Destroy last French city on continent. Get Grenoble on the small island for peace ( In case I do want a foothold there).
980 AD: Declare war on Persia.
1060 AD: Eliminate Persia from the game.
1070 AD: Declare war on india. My guess on how far I am from domination is poor. I was wondering if coast counted. It is good to know for sure. If I realized how far I had to go, I would have been making settlers and rushing temples sooner. I start that now to try to get myself over the limit. I was hoping to get under 1000 AD but I didn't make it.
1140 AD: Domination win.

 

[gozpel]

SirPleb said: (I always report turn after date.)

I do that too now after sorting out my confusion the last couple of games

Another thing I was thinking of, is that I didn't give away chivalry and never even met a knight.

So Snaga and SirPleb, in your games you MUST have had tougher opposition than what I had? My Ansars easily defeated all those spearmen, horsemen and archers, it was only late I met a few pikes.

Ansar warriors was truly amazing and is now noted as one of my favorite units

 

[Pigumon]

I really enjoyed my GOTM23.

I played with target end year as 1000AD, but I needed a few more turn. But still I won with domination and this is my fastest end-year!!

Sorry, I do not have enough time to read this thread through. I will do it later, and post some comments some day.

Thank you.

 

[tao]

When Rome was down to their last city, I made peace for gunpowder, republic, theology, wm, 29g, 12gpt. I tried the gpt and was very(!) surprised when they agreed to pay. How do they make the money? It is a desert town, no resources. They paid the complete 20 turns before being wiped out.

 

[dojoboy]

Originally posted by tao
How do they make the money? It is a desert town, no resources. They paid the complete 20 turns before being wiped out.

Good question. Hm, well they don't have a harbor nor are they connected by road, so I guess there only way to possibly be getting gpt is through a technology deal or maybe through an alliance.

 

[Naboo]

Originally posted by tao
When Rome was down to their last city, I made peace for gunpowder, republic, theology, wm, 29g, 12gpt. I tried the gpt and was very(!) surprised when they agreed to pay. How do they make the money? It is a desert town, no resources. They paid the complete 20 turns before being wiped out.

maybe you should have renegotiated peace for another 20gpt

 

[Yndy]

1.21

Domination win in 670AD with 7273 Firaxis score.

I discovered Chivalry in 110AD and kept on attacking ever since. I attacked in this order Ottomans, Persia, Egypt, Zululand, Carthage, France, India (halved before game ended).

Spain was destroyed by France and Rome around 10AD.

I did not build any Wonder and I did not have a single leader thorughout the game although I had over 50 elite wins. I built the FP just by the Palace but never got to move the Palace due to lack of leaders (I'm not fond of Palace jumping).

 

[Xerol]

So apparently I wasn't the only one that got "offered" peace in the middle of a peaceful period(this was the first time I've seen the AI re-negotiate peace):