Spoonwood's Hall of Fame Attempts

[Spoonwood]

Shaka in Space:

Difficulty: Deity
Map Size: Standard
Selected Tribe: The Zulu
Wet, Warm, 5 billion, Sedentary Barbs.
Opponents: China, Egypt, Aztecs, Japan

Following a joke made by someone who I won't name and following on the heels of Sanabas's "Mongols in space" game: http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ3/game_info.php?entryID=1682 First I set map-finder to find me a map with more than one cow and a river... 5 food probably really have worked well enough. I went with sedentary barbs since Zululand plays as expansionist. I fiddle around with two other starts, both of which I got a settler in. In one I lost the settler after moving it a bit from some barb that appeared out of nowhere (of course an AI popped a hut nearby), and quit in quite an upset mood. In another I tried not reseraching Alphabet first thinking I could pop it faster... it didn't seem to work, so I canned that one too. The one I played had the (relatively) weakest start of all three. I picked my opponents as the above, because they seemed like the poorest researchers who didn't have the expansionist trait. I much more wanted to just launch than launch fast in this one, so I played a bit more conservatively than usual (like researching Industrialization).

I didn't pop a settler in this one, nor get all that much from huts. I saw a flood plain wheat out near Zimbabwe, so I went with a settler first, and then the granary. In the other games I had gone with a scout or two first before anything else, but I played this one last, and I had learned that I wouldn't get as many huts as I would like, so I just went settler-granary and then settlers in this one. The second city went settler and then workers every 2 turns. I got another three-turn worker pump up near Zimbabwe also. The ancient ages seemed to go along swimmingly. I started on the Forbidden Palace later than I should have and that didn't help anything, but I went Alphabet-Writing-Philosophy-CoL as freebie, The Republic which I paritally bought from China I believe, then Currency and managed to get into the middle ages either slightly ahead or with the lead AI. Not sure if I traded for all of Literature, researched part of it, or all of it. I forgot to revolt to The Republic until 5-8 turns after I had learned it, but I managed things o.k. So, it all looked good.

Until the middle ages that is. I had quite a bit of jungle to clear. So, I trained a ton of workers. I didn't really have much time for military early on. My 10 AD save says I have 51 workers and 8 warriors, for 59 total units with 31 units allowed. I hand counted 41 jungle squares still left to get cleared (anyone want a picture?) and 2 marsh squares still to get cleared, and I know I had cleared some out before that. I didn't have all too many coastal cities either. Add that all up, and you'll know that infrastructure came in quite slowly. How slowly?

Well, things in the middle ages overall got so rough really that I had to buy almost all of the techs with gpt *and* with my only source of iron/saltpeter. Or use a luxury source and hope to pick it up elsewhere. Then, I'd have to keep the science slider at 0 and do good ole lone scientist research. I went Monotheism-Theology-Education... I think I bought Chemistry, although maybe I researched part of it.

After Education I reserached Banking (I didn't have Astronomy yet), which I believe I started in 90 BC and finished in 290 AD. I believe the Aztecs learned it the same turn I did, but no one else did. I knew Mao had started on Newton's. Sounds bad, right? Well, I managed to pick up Metallurgy, Astronomy, Physics, Theory of Gravity, and Magnetism on that turn via buying tech with gpt and selling Banking, catapulting myself and Mao into the industrial age (check the save if you like for what it looked like after the deals). I used some tax collectors to make the final deal with Mao. I somehow still had 580 gold left in the treasury, but after I swapped my citizens back to working tiles, I still had negative gpt for a bit. So, in 290 AD I started on Steam Power. 24 turns later in 530 AD I learned Steam Power ahead of the sluggish AI, started a little railing (I had jungle, so I had two sources of coal, until one depleted after I didn't need it anymore), and sold Steam Power for gpt so that I had +154 gpt at 100% science with Industrialization due in 9 turns. I figured I might get into a war sometime for one reason or another, so I decided I wanted Universal Suffrage, thus I reserached Industralization instead of going to Sanitation and to Scientific Method sooner.

I had wanted both Cope's or Newton's, or at least one, and tried to have Zimbabwe build them both. Both failed, even though the AIs started on this quite late for them really. However, the AIs had not researched Economics, Music Theory, or the Democracy path when I entered the middle ages. So, I managed both Bach's and Smith's, as well as Universal Suffrage and the rest of the non-Genetics great wonders. The industrial ages went quite well really... I think I picked up Replacable Parts and The Corporation from the AIs.

I popped an SGL on either Motorized Transportation or Flight (which I reserached last in the industrial age). Since I already had a pre-build going on the Internet, I decided to use my SGL for the U.N. So, in the modern age I went Computers-Miniaturization-Fission-Ecology, traded for Rocketry from Japan along here, Nuclear Power-The Laser-Space Flight (I had a palace pre-build going on the Apollo Program, so I didn't have time to wander to Robotics first), traded for Synthetic Fibers from Japan along here, Robotics, The Superconductor, traded for Satellites with like 2 turns left on the Superconductor, and launched 2 turns after I finished The Superconductor, as I had irrigated literally everything I could, and didn't use civil engineers right or something, to have more shields towards the spaceship parts via MFG pre-builds or something like that.

I thought I would need a war for rubber at one point where The Aztecs had two sources, but none to trade in the middle industrial age... but I didn't end up needing to do so as I got it later via trading a bit later, so I never entered one. I seduously avoided even the though of impis in this one, and I didn't really have time for much military until the mid to late industrial ages where I got a bare few artillery and cavalry, and later on I got some nice tanks. The Aztecs got exterminated by Japan and Egypt in the late industrial ages/early modern era. I launched the spaceship in 1610 AD with a score of 6067 *s*. As long as I can do this, here's the entry http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ3/game_info.php?entryID=2430 and some other saves not in the entry:

 

[Optional]

It sounds like a nice game Spoonwood, with some clever trading. Was this game quite different for you? Somehow it seemed like Gilgamesh was the only civ you were playing - just whack me if I'm wrong.
I hope the SG game you just started will get you your appetite for succession games back; it's quite clear you like to share your wits about the game with others.

 

[Spoonwood]

This did make for a different sort of game. I have played a lot of Gilgamesh, and he's very old. No, I don't mean I'm sick of him, I mean his tribe is ancient. I wonder why it took so long for Sumeria to appear in the civ series, when they're the first civilization in recorded history. Anyways, I've played some other tribes in research-based games I haven't completed such as Babylon and The Ottomans, and a desired space game for Korea, which I turned in a diplomatic game.

At Deity I have often struggled a bit to keep up in tech in the late middle ages, but not quite to the extent it happened in this one. The replay showed a GA by China in the high middle ages, as I should have expected. In fact, I think the replay showed that each tribe built themselves into their GA via wonders in this one, which pretty much means they all had their GAs in the middle ages. I didn't anticipate that as a problem... I'll try to keep it in mind for the future (hence more opponents might make for a faster research game, as that implies more GAs) as a problem or advantage. The game also played much differently in that with minimum opponents I had 4 or so cities which read "new" on them... meaning many more cities in general. I don't usually have that much jungle, but I did in a Gilgamesh game.

As long as it gets accepted, until the Zulu game drops below 10 on the SS standard sheet, I probably won't try to have a faster SS game on a standard map. Large maps and other sizes... well that's another story.

 

[Spoonwood]

If anyone followed my Portugal 20k game here or in the Golf gauntlet, and after reading Tone's "unpopular civs" thread from a while back, I started thinking that for smaller maps... like tiny and small maps even, The Hittites might make a good choice for an upper-level fast 20k game, much like Portugal. You won't need as fast of curraghs, since there's less territory to cover and fewer contacts to get. Given the free settler of course, commercial might just help with the increased corruption of smaller maps, and the early GA from the Colossus can help for getting culture in faster as with the Portuguese. With smaller maps, you'll also end up closer to or on the coast more often with a non-seafaring tribe.

 

[Spoonwood]

Alright, so I finally got around to getting a conquest and a domination victory (both pretty boring, Sumeria-Cheiftain, Japan-Regent). Believe it or not, I never had a conquest or domination victory in civ III prior to playing ones for the HOF here. In other words, I didn't have any of those last week.

 

[Elear]

Spoonwood,
I happen to share your sentiment. Before I even attempted any games for the HoF, I was a builder. The HoF teaches you how to be cold, calculating and ruthless.

 

[Spoonwood]

I'll have to second that Elear, and I think that's especially true for a 20k game and perhaps most 100k games too. For a non-HOF 20k game, do you really need/want the Heroic Epic to win? I mean, warring until you get a leader probably takes more time than just clicking next turn a few more times... and given a hard enough level it can get risky... so if you just want to win a 20k, why bother, right? But, for a fast 20k, you really can beat the Heroic Epic for its culture/shield ratio especially if you can get it early on and then get MGLs later.

 

[Marsden]

I also agree. I never started wars because of silly notions of being nice, now I just storm over the border crushing my enemies.


Sorry I haven't posted in this thread sooner, but Congratulations on becoming a Quartermaster.



Wow, there's 37 of us, now. You'll get your key and secret knock in the mail.

 

[Spoonwood]

Oh dear... I forgot about the hazing as a Right... ahem.. Rite of Passage.

In all earnestness, thanks Marsden.

Still laughing over my Zululand SS victory. Not only do I have the number 3 spot on a standard map, I have a number 8 spot for any Deity map. I've heard someone has a nice SS standard going on right now, but still... that would drop Shaka to 9th overall.

 

[Aabraxan]

lurker's comment: Congratulations, Quartermaster Spoonwood!

 

[Spoonwood]

Selected Tribe: The Maya
Desired Victory Condition: If you have to ask, I'll tell you happily.. but why do most people select the Maya for a HoF game?
Opponents: Carthage, Spain, Byzantines, Portugal, England, Netherlands, and Scandinavia.
Map type: I tried archipelago with 4 scientific opponents, and the tech pace felt too slow. I then tried a pangea game with 4 scientific opponents, I hand-built the Pyramids once I had finished The Republic slingshot, and the tech pace really felt too slow. I didn't want to do all that much research.
Level: demi-god
Map size: It's an empty table. Plus, I mentioned 4 and 7, so there's your hint.

I haven't played perfectly for sure, and I don't micromanage like how some people do for this, I feel sure of that. With these opponents I tried a game before and only managed 12 or so cities at first... it seemed really weird. This one I have going now I've pretty much liked. I had 3 native luxuries early on, and managed some good trading for other ones not too late, I think. I had some bonus food down south and got out a good chunk of cities. I wanted a fast tech pace so I wouldn't have to do research. That way, other than to prevent flips, I could forgo libraries, use the luxury slider and concentrate on happiness and military. The only problem came as that I lost two of my border cities via cultural flips to the Byzantines before I started in on Theodora. Preferably I would have kept her around, but with resistance and things like that I decided just to exterminate her. I have kept AI cities for the free population.

I also wanted 7 tribes, so I wouldn't have to fight as large of armies as I might with 4 opponents. I wanted pangea so that I wouldn't have to train a bunch of ships for naval invasions. I did 50 turn research rates... mostly lone scientist... all the way to Military Tradition, partially buying them about half-way in going Alphabet, Writing, Code of Laws (I made the mistake of going Literature in a sort of "warm-up" game), The Republic, Monotheism, Theology, Invention, Gunpowder, Chemistry, Metallurgy, Military Tradition (which cost me a lot... maybe I had soiled my reputation). Then I canned research, so I could keep luxuries up and keep on with cash. I've had like 3 or 4 libraries, most of which I sold, becuase I really only had them to prevent flips. I think I have one left. I hesistated to use the luxury slider for happiness much until I got into the Republic. I think it might have worked more to my playing style to play as scientific and play against all scientific opponents and war with better units. Then again, Theodora got pretty pitiful only having spears towards the end of my rampage against her and Henry the pikeman has only sported pikes.

Oh... I canned research. Then I took (which Henry the pikeman built) the Great Library a few turns ago. I wanted to get Steam, but instead I just saw that Will had Steam Power and no one else did. Bill seems the juggernaut, relatively speaking, and a turn or two ago I decided to finally get after him. Before that I took on Theodora first, with everyone allied against her. I took all her cities, except Varna, which the English took to finish her off. Well, that one had the Hanging Gardens, so I basically attacked Lizzie the next turn and signed alliances against her. I delayed finishing her off until I captured the Great Library from Henry the pikeman. Cavs. vs. pikes makes for an easy game, that's for sure. I have Ragnar and Isabella allied against Bill right now. Bill had an MPP with Hannibal, so now I have to worry about both of the big guys left. I have Ragnar and Isabella in against Hannibal also. Bill just started on Universal Suffrage. Henry the pikeman I can finish very soon... although I could leave him around... but probably not. I'll probably clear the continent and leave whoever has those island cities around. A few turns ago I started on Medicine, as I want Sanitaiton ASAP.

I stupidly lost a bit city at some point somehow. I don't really know how well I've done so far... hard to project a score at this point, I think. Plus, it's an empty table. I haven't spawned a leader. I had wanted one earlier, and still want one, as cavalry armies could speed this up quite a bit, and give me little to worry about if Bill gets to Replacable Parts.

 

[Spoonwood]

Here's another mid-game save. After getting peace with Bill and Hannibal, I went back to fighting Bill again... with on MPP for him this time, so I got everyone in on the action. Then I made peace with him again. A few turns ago, I re-declared, taking out one city in a turn, and then 2 more the next turn. I've started razing cities, except for ones I really want to keep, as I've lost a few on flips. I've also lost some of the former Portuguese cities on flips to the Spanish. I doubt I would have had this problem with a faster tech pace game with the Ottos, but maybe this still will work out better.

During peace I've had the luxury slider at about 10%. You can check the save to see what war-time luxuries look like. After learning Medicine and Sanitation as fast I could really, I started a 0% science run on Electricity thinking I'd buy some markets and courthouses in more corrupt cities, as well as hospitals. I had a palace pre-build going which turned into Battlefield Medicine... I probably should have waited until I got Industrialization from Bill and just built Universal Suffrage instead. After 10 or so turns of the 0% science run on Electricity, I decided it might work better to go to Replacable Parts as soon as possible, as my workers have a lot left to do. Groingen I'll take last from Bill, and I'll keep that one. I think I'll go for Carthage next, I razed their city by their horses. Scandinavia after that. Then Spain last. They have cavalry. Bill just landed an annoying stack, which I'll finish off soon. I still don't have a leader. I guess when you take like 15-20 veteran cavalry outside a city and then rush in and destroy it really quickly, you don't end up with all too many elites, because you war too efficiently or something. I've had more than 10 elite kills, I feel sure, and have had more than 5 elites. Maybe I've played too careslessly with them, hoping I'd get an MGL.

I lost one javelin warrior early on. During the Carthage and Netherlands skirmish, Hannibal had a warrior nearby my border, and my only other javelin warrior triggered my GA, providing a nice production boost right before I had rails... and right when I wanted to swell in production, I think. Here's the save:

 

[Spoonwood]

I really haven't micromanaged for growth and production as much as I could have in this game. I like the effects of micromanagement, but often find it tedious... and worry about losing interest in a game due to it. I really do like it's effects... I've really enjoyed doing such in 20k games, where I basically micromanage one city every turn for a while I guess I should set myself the goal of opening the city screen for at least 5 cities every turn, so that I get at least a little more growth and production.

 

[Spoonwood]

After I took and then abandoned... accidently not razing, a Dutch tundra city fairly easily, I got cocky and charged at Amsterdam with about 10 cavalry or so. I killed 1 rifle, and lost several cavalry. Definitely not worth it. I won't spawn a leader that way easier for sure also... better to go at the AIs with overwhelming force and make sure you acheive your objective and just bid your time for that first MGL. Fight like a bunch of raging barbarians at a change-over rush, and throw in some artillery when you can finally roll them in.

I had somehow thought earlier in the night that taking an AI capital requires *a lot* of units... I'll live with it and learn. It may seem obvious enough, but a histographic game requires *a lot* of patience in a lot of ways. If a turn takes half an hour, or an hour or so, maybe it better to think that par for the course.

 

[Spoonwood]

I know I have a lot of posts I could merge together, but this one deserves a special section. I mentioned getting cash for markets and courthouses. I didn't mean my core cities.

Chichen Itza served as a 4 turn warrior-settler combo factory... originally going worker (to get to 10 shields ASAP), granary, a warrior or two, then warrior-settler for a while. Some warriors served as scouts, others as early MP to get happiness up. Some settlers came out of other cities than Chichen Itza. Cities with food bonuses got granaries and then produced mostly workers for a bit. One core city got an early barracks as it had nothing else to build really. For the other core cities (ones without food bonuses) I built/pre-built pretty much a market, then barracks, and then either horseman (which got upgraded) or knights. Cities that took longer to produce markets, went with trebuchets or cannons (what... cavalry cost 70 shields, and cannons cost 40?). I think I had three worker pumps at one point, but as Chichen Itza neared size 12, I tried it as a worker pump. A little before I got into a Republic, I started irrigating a lot, and I continued this elsewere (industrious workers). I didn't like the size 11, then 12 worker pump idea for Chicen Itza, since I didn't have anything to train at size 11 without getting a full box of 12 food. I think that would really only work in an area where you don't have enough production to build a granary. So, I rearranged the production of Chichen Itza to max out shields... mostly foresting and leaving some irrigation for later on.

With other cities I similarly irrigated and forested, including the early worker pumps which I fairly early stopped having produce workers so I could get more citizens and get my markets up sooner. Once that pretty much finished I had my workers went around and forested some of those water squares, chop them for production, and then re-irrigated those squares. With all of this, I think the Maya's strength for this more lies in the industrious workers than in the agricultural trait, and this would even more hold for larger map sizes.

To summarize all this... other than my pre-republic moderate use of the luxury slider, I've tried to maximize my score from turn 1. I think this map will get a late game palace swap to a more central location. Commerce affects how well the luxury slider works.

Suppose the commercial trait gave you half-priced markets. Would this make commercial tribes overpowered for a histographic game?

 

[bluejay]

Selected Tribe: The Maya
Desired Victory Condition: If you have to ask, I'll tell you happily.. but why do most people select the Maya for a HoF game?
Opponents: Carthage, Spain, Byzantines, Portugal, England, Netherlands, and Scandinavia.
Map type: I tried archipelago with 4 scientific opponents, and the tech pace felt too slow. I then tried a pangea game with 4 scientific opponents, I hand-built the Pyramids once I had finished The Republic slingshot, and the tech pace really felt too slow. I didn't want to do all that much research.
Level: demi-god
Map size: It's an empty table. Plus, I mentioned 4 and 7, so there's your hint.

I've been working on and off on a Standard Demi-God Histographic as the Iroquois, who start with Alphabet, and with only opponents who do not start with Alphabet. I found that I couldn't reliably get the Republic slingshot while doing 50-turn Writing research, then going full-tilt research. The Mayans don't start with Alphabet, and some of your opponents do, so I'm surprised that you were able to get the slingshot.

 

[Elear]

Suppose the commercial trait gave you half-priced markets. Would this make commercial tribes overpowered for a histographic game?

If Commercial gave half-priced Markets + Banks, this would certainly make the Iroquois an even more popular choice; I would really have to debate whether industrious workers of the Maya could make up the difference.

-Elear

 

[Spoonwood]

I've been working on and off on a Standard Demi-God Histographic as the Iroquois, who start with Alphabet, and with only opponents who do not start with Alphabet. I found that I couldn't reliably get the Republic slingshot while doing 50-turn Writing research, then going full-tilt research. The Mayans don't start with Alphabet, and some of your opponents do, so I'm surprised that you were able to get the slingshot.

Sorry, either I didn't speak clearly enough or you got confused... or both. Anyways, with the seafarers map I didn't get The Republic slingshot. Nor try for it. I DID get the Republic slingshot with 4 non-alphabetic scientific opponents on a pangea map. The game I have going right now I've played on a pangea map.

If Commercial gave half-priced Markets + Banks, this would certainly make the Iroquois an even more popular choice; I would really have to debate whether industrious workers of the Maya could make up the difference.

The way I think about this comes as that the industrial workers get you up going faster, they make forest planting, chopping, and the re-improving quicker and easier... and finally they make railroading and irrigating like mad in the last phase much easier and faster. When you have enough territory to lie near the domination, that's probably a big bonus, because that's *a lot* of territory to cover... unless I guess the AIs have already done that for you.

 

[Spoonwood]

In 940 AD (or thereabouts) I cleared the Dutch off the continent. I kept Groningen and tried to keep Amsterdam. A few turns later after quelling the resistance and chopping out a settler (thanks Moonsinger! oh... she doesn't come around here, does she? chopping out a worker might worker better also) I saw how many units MapStat recommended to keep in the garrison and decided against it. Groinengen may flip to the Spanish, but it also chopped out a settler.

After the siege of those cities (and the razing of their tundra town), I asked Hannibal to leave my territory, and he did so. He has Electricity up on me and since my "credit rating" (reputation) comes out pretty bad, I can't trade for it even though he doesn't have industrialization. I asked Ragnar to leave my territory. 960 AD proved an eventful year as I could finally make peace with Bill. So, I dropped the luxury slider to 10% and raised research, so I had Electricity due in 3 turns. All in all, that made the turn seem happy for the Merry Maya. But... it got better. I bombarded a bersek, attacked with an elite cavalry, and I spawned Blue-Quetzal Macaw (on a Carthagian rail... I have an RoP with them for the moment). The Vikings had another now red-lined berserk on that spot, so I formed an army with 2 vets and the first elite star (hopefully of many to come) and whacked that berserk. Palenque had 9 turns left on Universal Suffrage, which I turned into the Military Academy with a 132 shield waste. Making Pizza (the new name of Chichen Itza) went for the Heroic Epic... 5 turns to go. The question now becomes, do I research to Replacable Parts ASAP, or do I turn research off and buy armies/markets and such?

The first ten shields would cost me 80 gold, and 390*4=1360 gold for each next army. With 724 gold per turn at 0% science, and 10% luxuries, I can buy an army every 2 turns... meaning 10 armies in 20 turns. I could also irrigate all the squares around that city. If I go for replacable parts, I'll have faster workers (which gradually has seemed less important.. but of course makes for the better situation), and then want gold for the cannon-artillery upgrade. Thing is, though currently I have a war with Scandinavia, and I may as well go pulzerize them next (I want to keep Trondheim... I'll probably need to get some units onto some galleons to kill their cities not on the continent) and even if usually going for replacable parts instead of buying armies works out more efficient, I have to cross Cathaginian territory to get there, so moving settlers there might not work out so easy. I also have markets, but not libraries... so that seems to fit better.

After realizing about resources and such nicieties as civil engineers and seeing it would take me less than ten turns to get to Replacable Parts I decided just to reserach it.

As of 960 AD I have 44% of the world's area, with plenty of temporary camps, and a score of 3594. I've tried to not stop growing by buying settlers and/or workers. I still have some good mines in my core. Earlier today while doing real life things, I made a chart of how many shields I need to get X turns for units, so that's helped with micromanagement.

I seem to use this thread more and more as a sort of notepad as I play. Does anyone mind that I do this?

I stalled for like 2 turns, not going at the Vikings, as I didn't realize how well Hannibal had railroaded his territory. Here's a 1020 AD save

 

[Spoonwood]

Things have gone on swimmingly. After beating up the Vikings for a bit, somehow Bill decided to declare on me, so the luxury slider went way up. When I learned Replacable Parts I shut research off, using scientist only research. I checked the map, and found that I controlled all the sources of rubber on the map (one in Dutch territroy, on in Portuguese, one in Byzantine... talk about good fortune in this respect). I checked again, as I could hardly believe it. Yep, I've got all the rubber.

I really should have gone here straight to Replacable Parts after Sanitation if not before and not a minimume. Preferably I would have remembered... those civil engineers and those faster workers! I've managed to railroad and irrigate quite a few number of tiles, and I've planted some forests in corrupt areas and chopped them to speed in those markets, hospitals, aqueducts, courthouses, and eventually I'll get to police stations. I now feel convinced that industrious workers really comes as the way to go. Plant 8 forests by a town and chop it ASAP in corrupt areas at the right time, and you have those happy faces quicker. I've started micromanaging a lot for production via those civil engineers. In other words, instead of the corrupt towns expanding outward by producing workers and settlers, I've expanded upward. I've even irrigated my core... and that's where my research has come from. It's slow right now, but once I get some courthouses and police stations in those more corrupt areas and they grow, things should slowly get better, since then I'll use scientists instead of civil engineers.

On the military front, I just killed Bill, landing my first two armies out on that silly island and destroying his town the next turn. Carthage now has a city out there. I probably want to take out Carthage next and leave Ragnar alone for a bit. Hannibal's territory looks more appealing than Isabella's and I'd prefer not to have anyone build TOE. I don't know if it better to wait a bit and have more armies to minimize losses, or it better to just get going on Hannibal. May as well do the latter, I guess. It's 1120 AD with a score of 4312.

Anyone out there have an idea on how to project a final score?