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Spoonwood's Hall of Fame Attempts

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Hall of Fame Discussion' started by Spoonwood, Oct 25, 2008.

  1. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    Sometime in the 800s I stopped trying to coordinate workers with city growth, as I got tired of it. Maybe I should have convinced myself that wouldn't last the whole game and slugged it out. I also micro-managed citizens less. I did put out a few more workers. In 910 AD I passed the 7000 mark. In 980 AD I learned Communism (via scientist only research) and set research to Industrialization, which I would get in 6 turns (via scientist only research). In 1000 AD I had a score of 7761. One turn before this I had started with the 'shift-A' command for my workers, and had added some in, keeping about 60 around. as I had just about everything irrigated and railroaded. In 1030 I passed the 8000 mark. Around this time I had pollution in like 4 cities. I noticed the workers didn't clean all of them immediately. I then noticed a large slew of workers fortified in one city. It looks like just using shift-A doesn't work as I would like. I also had a lot more slaves than I expected, so I added in a bunch of workers. My 1010 score read 7846 and my 1020 score 7931. SirPleb's calculator yields 18,913 as my final score. In 1050 AD my score read 8189. In 1060 AD my score read 8277. On this turn I added in like 10-15 workers, as that's when I noticed that large fortified stack of workers. SirPleb's calculator read 19,697 as the final score from these two dates. Since I have some growth left to go still in some spots, I think I'll hit 20k or at least get pretty close.
     
  2. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    To get Alphabet that fast you have to set research to 100% from the get-go and then produce settlers instead of anything else really.
     
  3. bluejay

    bluejay Warlord

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    Of course, to keep research at 100%, you have to use some combination of MPs, entertainers, and scientists, which slows your population growth.

    Has there been any mathematical analysis of optimum early-game strategy?
     
  4. AutomatedTeller

    AutomatedTeller Frequent poster

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    I think it would depend on what level you are on, what the map size is, what the difficulty level is, etc.

    On a tiny chieftain game, for instance, it may make more sense to expand to get luxuries and grow several cities to size 12 fast, because you can get more content citizens.

    On a huge deity game, though, you can't do that, because you run out of space and can't keep them happy anyway - and you need more cities later, anyway.
     
  5. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    I passed 9000 points in 1150. 10,000 points in 1255. After I learned Industrialization, I went The Corporation and the techs flowed in 4 turns each with scientist only research.
     
  6. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    Yea, but as you can see I didn't do that in my game. I didn't build a warrior for an MP and that might actually slow things down. If you go with settlers, then you'll get more commerce from the second/third city which you found and you can keep the luxury slider fairly low (10%/20%) since you have a smaller capital. I didn't try to get Alphabet ASAP in this game necessarily, though I did want Alphabet fairly fast to get The Republic slingshot. I more put out settlers first, because I first saw an extra cow, and thought a second worker/settler factory up early would work out well. When I got the SGL from Alphabet I coincidentally played the way I would have played *if* I had played with different starts until I popped an SGL on Alphabet. I just had really good fortune... and it didn't end there in this game, as I've already mentioned... though I really suffered more war weariness than I could have due to some of my weaker decisions.
     
  7. AutomatedTeller

    AutomatedTeller Frequent poster

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    war weariness will have very little effect on your overall score. Assume you get, I dunno, 20 turns of weariness. that's probably 2 citizens angry instead of content per city, so, i dunno, 60 citizens. 60*20/540 = 2 points, in the grand scheme of things.
     
  8. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    War weariness may have actually helped me do research faster than I would have otherwise at the time.
     
  9. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    I passed 11,000 in 1320. Since I didn't have an RoP signed with Cathy, she's now planted two coastal tundra cities. Oh well, I'll leave her alone. Soon enough I can basically create a magniot line everywhere around this map, and I doubt she'll attack mechanized infantries or get to nukes. I won't gift her up to the modern age. She doesn't have Industrialization or Communism or Electricity yet. If/when she swings around the island, her new cities will have too much corruption to give her research. In 1325, I have a score of 11,151 and have just started a 4 turn run on Flight.
     
  10. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    After cleaning pollution for more than a millenium I managed a final Firaxis score of 21,818. I do have some saves from the war turns if someone wants them. But, until then at least, I think the 2049 AD save sums things up nicely.
     

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  11. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    Yea... 2 views so far! Anyways, I checked that 2049 save and another save for something I had wondered about all game. I stood 8 tiles from the domination limit for most of the game. I didn't want to risk anything, so I didn't try to get more. Out near 116, 114, 118, and 112 I had 4 grassland tiles that I didn't use, because I didn't want to crack over the domination limit. But, checking from the saves I could have used a quick cultural expansion to grab them. I thought about spitting a settler at several points as a test here, but I didn't want to lose the population (probably not a big deal). Anyways, I guess this shows the domination limit problem arises with culture on the borders... if you need a cultural expansion for tiles between cities, and you won't have any culture expand out towards the edges, as long it won't put you over the tile limit, you can fairly safe grab those tiles through culture. MapStat has some useful information on this under culture... as well as some other useful tabs which you might not notice until your milk game. I wish I had looked through that sooner! Maybe if I had done that early enough it would have tipped me over 22k... or maybe if I had used OCP spacing. I think I had a domination limit of 1499 for this map. Anyone know if that's high or low?

    In light a recent comment about this game, I've sort of started thinking along these lines for a game, but I don't know if I want to do this.

    Difficulty: Probably Emperor (demi-god, maybe???)
    Size: Don't know
    Desired Victory Condition: Histographic
    Opponents: Definitely no one scientific. No one with Alphabet seems good also. Throwing out either agricultural or industrious or both also seems like a good idea.
    Selected tribe: Someone agricultural, probably the Maya or maybe the Iroquois. Definitely not Sumeria though.
    Landform: Arid, dry, 3 billion, 80% water, definitely archipelago.

    Does arid, dry, 3 billion sound bad for a histographic game? Read on...

    Variant: Active builder or passive military. In other words I can't attack enemy cities. I'll also forbid pillaging.

    The issues then become, 1. can I have a higher score than all the other AIs by 2050 AD, and 2. The AIs launching, or maybe losing via the U. N. which seems less likely. 1. seems fairly easy. I think 2. possible at Emperor. If it works there, can it also work at demi-god?
     
  12. AutomatedTeller

    AutomatedTeller Frequent poster

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    1499 seems low - the 80K+ games (on a huge map, of course) had dom limits over 4K!. Though, maybe huge maps are really that much bigger, I dunno.
     
  13. Lord Emsworth

    Lord Emsworth Emperor

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  14. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    Thanks for the links guys. I think Chamnix had linked me to them before, but I didn't quite see the point of them before (my slowness). I guess since I had something less than 39 tiles of an "average" domination limit, *and* I had 4 perfectly good grasslands I decided not to try and use, *and* I probably had a weaker city spacing than ideal for this, *and* two of the luxuries lay on the island instead of the continent, *and* that I lost a city which had luxuries during the Persian war, maybe that all goes to show that early Pyramids on pangea can really work out powerfully. Then again, maybe some of that I should attribute to having knights vs. spears, then cavs. vs. pikes twice, and then cavs. and cav armies vs. muskets, as well as my leader fortune.... well some of that comes using early arties well I guess. Maybe 25k comes as possible for a standard sized demi-god map.
     
  15. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    Today I played a fast diplomatic game with Sumeria (my Korea diplomatic game hadn't started out that way, so I consider it a late finish). All scientific opponents, except the one with the duplicate starting technologies of Sumeria. I moved the settler a space, plopped down by a juicy cow with 4 bonus grasslands. I had another cow nearby, so first out came a settler, then a worker from both the capital and the 2nd city, then granaries, and then two settler factories. The second city kept on with settlers for a while, while Ur eventually stopped, built a temple, then some workers, and then The Great Library. I had a cow east of my capital, where Korea decided to park near to. I took the liberty of parking so that I would get the cow and decided to make that spot my forbidden palace spot. I thought I might also get a flip if I built enough culture. Oh, Akshak will build a granary. Bad-tibira won't. The granary I used as a pre-build there as I did in some other cities. I *did* have a culture lead over Korea for a good long time, but never got a flip.... even though...


    Well, in this game I had no luxuries and couldn't trade for any until the late middle ages. Pretty bad map actually, as my empire lay far up north, and the replay indicates plenty of territory that didn't get claimed until the middle ages. That's the roll of the dice I guess. With no luxuries, I played the game in "ultra" builder mode. Meaning not just libraries and universities, but temples, cathedrals, and even colosseums. Hey, it's a diplomatic game... taking luxuries might just make them mad, and I didn't want to eliminate my friends. Eventually I managed to trade for 6 luxuries. I missed Cope's, as Sistine's Chapel finished too early by someone else, and Greece popped Aristotle on something and finished Cope's the next turn. I did manage Newton's.

    Greece demanded 35 gold or so at some point. I declined and Alex got aggressive on me... least aggressive AI? He got Germany in on the war too. I didn't see any German units. But, I did see some Greek ones and had to run some workers for a bit and put out 2 regular knights, which I think each got a victory before peace came with Greece. No enkidus got attacked. Thank Enki. I made peace with Germany a bit later. Later on Osman demanded Atomic Theory. I didn't cave and he backed away.

    In the industrial age, even though I usually like it, I decided to forget about Sanitation. Scientist specialists help with research, don't they? Well, it's an optional tech, and I didn't think the game would last long enough to benefit from those extra specialists... especially since I decided to make it a point to build Universal Suffrage. Hey... The Great Library hadn't expired, had it? Oh, I had Newton's too. The Theory of Evolution didn't time so well, and I decided not to slow it down, so I had research off for 2 turns. I also didn't chance building U.S. later, say when I finished off The Corporation, instead building it a little before, which might have wasted a turn or so.

    So, in the industrial age, after trading for the other free techs... getting Medicine as my freebie (traded for Magnetism via TOG with Theodora to pop industrial), I went Industrialization-Electricity-Scientific Method. The AIs didn't seem to move to Industrialization, so a few turns after I had started on U.S. and they had stared on Shakespeare's Theater, I traded for Sanitation and built the Shake's a few turns later. Now, I could have more shields going to Hoover's Dam as a pre-build on the U. N. It didn't out to come as necessary, as I popped an SGL on Mass Production. I also managed to build Smith's, even though I didn't really aim it. I guess I had Industrialization a lot earlier than the AIs, so I had a much quicker build or something. I didn't have RoPs established until the mid industrial ages after I had almost everywhere have a university, and a police station and a courthouse... trying to squeeze the last bit of science out of my cities as I could (without making anyone angry... you won't like Osman when he's angry.)

    I managed to trade for Replacable Parts. Then a bit latter, with one turn left on Motorized Transportation, I traded for Flight. Upon learning Flight, I gifted everyone up for fun, bought/traded for Fission, Ecology, and Computers... getting got Nuclear Power as my freebie. Ali Ibbn Rabban did his job, I gifted everyone 100 gold and got elected in 870 AD. The middle ages and probably the ancient ages went too slowly to get a really fast finish on the map I played honestly. Hammi ended up with the island start, and did pitifully in the tech race. Germany ended up with an OCC at the end of the game, just about to get exteriminated. Theodora had a double choke point that made it seem like she had an island of her own also.

    Even though I had a pitiful luxury situation throughout much of the game, I still managed to break 10,000 points with this game.

    On perhaps a more interesting note, yesterday I attempted a standard pangea Sid diplo game with all scientific opponents except for Alex (I got an SGL on Literature... which went straight to The Great Library). I think I would have a had a shot, but I bought Refinig hoping that I could sell it. That didn't happen and consequently I gave up, as my research on Electricity wouldn't work out so well. A week or so ago I attempted a tiny pangea Sid diplo/space game against 3 scientific opponents, but gave up when I started to trail in tech in the high middle ages. The tech pace of Sid AIs doesn't bother me so much... at least psychologically. However, the exboritant cost of actually researching a tech on Sid... that's another story. Moonsinger managed a tiny Sid space game with the Aztecs on a pangea map against 3 scientific opponents, but I have a feeling she got lucky with the amount of territory she could settle (and I think the relatively weak Byzantines plopped down in spots where she could fairly easily take their cities). I don't know if she played that on 60%, 70%, or 80% water. I don't know how much she stole tech either, if she did so.

    Some of the Sid saves and one save (the 300ish one) from the Deity game, at least I think it is.:
     

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  16. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    I've got a Large Deity 20k game going. I think I put it on normal/temperate/3 billion instead of wet/warm/3 billion. My thinking lay in that such would slow down the AIs more since they would have more desert. I decided to try it with expansionist tribes, even though I have sedentary barbs, so Arabia, the Celts, Japan, the Zulu, the Mongols, and the Aztecs as my opponents. I have a three grassland cow river start without any hills at all. So, I had 26 sheilds before Engineering and 28 shields post Engineering. Someone researched Music Theory, so I eneded up missing J.S. Bach's in the middle ages. I didn't get either Magellan's or Smith's. Still, I should finish before 1600 AD. I popped the settler in 3950 BC and had a lux nearby. I had to trade Writing away for Mysticism, so I didn't try Code of Laws-Philosohpy, instead going Philosophy-Literature-Code of Laws-The Republic. I managed to pop an SGL on Writing. I couldn't trade for Masonry early, but I still managed to SGL rush The Pyramids after I finished The Great Lighthouse and met Arabia. Arabia also traded ivory with me. I didn't need much of the luxury slider, as I could trade for a fair number of luxuries from early on. Initial build in 001 went curragh-worker-granary pre-build, as I got another worker from my second city after 10 turns. The rundown so far:

    Palace-4000 BC
    Temple-2950 BC
    Colossus-2310 BC
    Oracle-1830 BC
    Museum of Mausollos-1600 BC
    Library-1500 BC
    Great Lighthouse-1200 BC
    Pyramids-1175 BC
    Hanging Gardens-875 BC
    Statue of Zeus-690 BC
    Great Library-370 BC
    Colosseum-250 BC
    Cathedral-70 BC
    Sistine Chapel-390 AD
    University-400 AD
    Copernicus's Observatory-550 AD
    Shakespeare's Theater-720 AD
    Newton's University-840 AD
    Universal Suffrage-1120 AD
    Theory of Evolution-1240 AD
    Wall Street-1275 AD
     
  17. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    Hoover's Dam-1335 AD
    Battlefield Medicine-1390 AD
    Heroic Epic-1410 AD
    Military Academy-1435 AD
    Research Lab-1445 AD
    United Nations-1500 AD

    Both Japan and Zululand had plopped down on my island, so I decided to clear them out after I had markets, libraries, universities, and non-happiness infrastructure up. The game crashed on me twice mid-turn, so I tried to re-create my moves as best I could. I kept the Zulu and Japanese cities and lost like 6 cavalry and 6 artillery to the Zulu when the city flipped back to them after like 2 or 3 turns of having it. That didn't yield me a leader. I did have iron, but I didn't have coal and even though it looked like the Aztecs could have extra coal or something, they never hooked it up, so I landed some units next to a Japanese city after this. I got everyone in on that war (unlike before) and didn't get a leader after taking 4 of their cities. So, I then decided to trash my reputation declaring on the Mongols 1 turn or so after I re-signed them in against the Japanese killing their stack of 5 or so Keshiks. Still no leader, and I had some Aztecs units around the Japanese island. So, I declared on Monty and that yielded me a leader for the Heroic Epic. Then I had to endure Monty's bombing runs on that Japanese island. They ended up bombing out the cavalry army 1 or 2 turns before I finished the Miliary Academy. I made peace with them as soon as I could and they declared on me again 1 turn before the finish. Maybe I should have declared on someone else much earlier and hoped for landings which I could drive out with ancient cavalry. Maybe not, that sounds risky.

    Oh... what did the Large Deity table look like before and the overall Deity table? Sanabas had a 1655 AD for the top spot at Deity Large 20k. The overall Deity 20k table went...
    Killercane-1485 AD (build 'em and kill 'em strategy on a tiny pangea map with the Aztecs... that might work on a small map, I doubt on a standard map, I can't see it ever happening on a large map)
    Spoonwood-1525 AD
    LulThyme-1545 AD

    My finish date here? 1540 AD. That's 23 turns off of the best finish date on a Large map and would place high on any 20k Deity table. Really, it would place nicely a slew of tables. I wonder when I might have finished had I gotten a timely SGL for the Sistine Chapel and the Arabs didn't finish it before I finished Shakespeare's Theater. Or if I could have traded for Masonry earlier for that matter (and of course a Temple of Artemis SGL, but I shouldn't get greedy now, should I?).

    Since it's got accepted, here's the link to the HoF saves http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ3/game_info.php?entryID=2482
     
  18. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    I know pictures and such... photobucket just runs sluggishly on my computer.
     
  19. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    Here's a game I played the other day http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ3/game_info.php?entryID=2495 One city, tiny Chieftain, Diplomatic game. I might manage a 20k game on the tiny Chieftain table also, but I'll play an OCC space Tiny Chieftain game here.

    I have the settings as 80% pangea, sedentary barbies, wet, warm, 3 billion (for an increased chance of hills), with Babylon, Russia, and Persia as my opponents. I ran MapFinder for starts. Even though I only had it programmed for a cow and a river, I found a lovely 4 bonus food square start:



    4000 BC The settler moves a square southwest, I spot a forested game. The worker irrigates.

    3950 BC I found Atlantis and spot 4 BG within the fat X. I start on a warrior. Research on Writing at max... it says 26 turns. I won't have all too many huts to pop.

    3800 BC I road the irrigated cow square.

    3700 BC Warrior out which goes exploring. Start on a second warrior.

    3650 BC Worker moves to other cow square alond the river, it will irrigate and then road. Spot Babylonian borders. Writing now reads 14 turns.

    3550 BC warrior-worker. Ring up Hammy. Trade Alphabet for CB and 10 gold.

    3450 BC Atlantis hits size 3.

    3400 BC worker-worker.

    3350 BC Babylon has Pottery and Warrior Code (first time I checked MapStat).

    3250 BC Atlantis worker-worker.

    3200 BC Spot Russian borders.

    3150 BC meet Russians who have Masonry and Pottery.

    3050 BC Atlantis worker-Colossus.

    3000 BC Russia now has Warrior Code.

    2950 BC Learn Writing. Ring up Russia. Get Masonry and Warrior Code and 10 gold for Writing. Get Masonry for Pottery from Hammy. Have research set on Philosophy. Pop hut near Russia and learn Literature. Swap to library in Atlantis. Change research to Code of Laws.

    2750 BC Kill Russian scout as it lies near a hut I want to pop, but not yet.

    2710 BC Capture slave near Moscow. Atlantis hits size 4 and now has 2 turn growth.

    2670 BC Warrior loses near Moscow.

    2630 BC library in, start on Colossus. Code of Laws down to 6 turns.

    2590 BC Atlantis revolts as it hit size 5. I sure have played sloppy so far.

    2550 BC Set research to 0 and trade Writing and 8 gpt to Hammy for Iron Working. Raise luxury slide back up to 10% and sci. to 90%.

    2510 BC Babylon has The Wheel.

    2470 BC Atlantis hits size 6.

    2430 BC Atlantis hits size 7. Make peace with Cathy using Literature and obtaining The Wheel in the process.

    2390 BC Code of Laws in, Philosophy due in 6 turns.

    2270 BC Atlantis hits size 8.

    2150 BC Philosophy-Republic. Revolt.

    2110 BC Contact Persia and spot Ivory North of Atlantis.



    2030 BC Become a Republic. Horseback Riding due in 4 turns.

    1870 BC Horseback Riding in. Maths due in 4 turns.

    1750 BC Colossus-Museum of Mausollos.

    1725 BC Maths-Map Making due in 4 turns.

    1625 BC Map Making in which yields an SGL. Research Mysticism, due in 4 turns.

    1600 BC Build Ivory colony with slave, swap to Statue of Zeus.

    1550 BC Trade for Mysicism from Persia, begin 4 turn research on Polytheism.

    1500 BC Finish Statue of Zeus, SGL rush Pyramids.

    1475 BC Pyramids-Museum of Mausollos.

    1450 BC Polytheism-Currency. Due in 5 turns.

    1375 BC Hammy demands Mysticism and I give it, so I gift up and trade.

    1325 BC Currency-Construction, due in 6 turns.

    1225 BC Museum of Mausollos-Oracle.

    1175 BC Learn Construction. Gift everyone up, getting Feudalism and Engineering from the AIs. I get Invention as my free tech (double yuck!). Start 7 turn research on Monotheism. And I start foresting.

    1075 BC Pop a settler from a hut.

    1000 BC Oracle-Great Lighthouse. Monotheism-Theology, due in 9 turns.

    800 BC Theology-Education, it says 9 turns. Great Lighthouse-Great Wall (maybe I should have gone ToA/Great Library).

    590 BC Education-Astronomy... it says 13 turns. Great Wall-University.

    550 BC Disband two ACs to get the University down to 1 turn.

    530 BC University-Sistine Chapel as pre-build on Cope's. Astronomy drops to 8 turns.

    470 BC Get a slave from Persia for Monotheism.

    410 BC Get a slave from Babylon for Monotheism.

    370 BC Astronomy-Printing Press, due in 6 turns. Sistine Chapel swaps to Cope's, due in 7 turns.
     
  20. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    350 BC Borrow 36 gold from Persia for 2 gpt. Establish embassy with Persia. Sign RoP with Persia, so I can road up X-man's territory. It costs me nothing, even though X-man has 3 cities to my one.

    250 BC Printing Press in. Start on Banking, it reads 9 turns right now.

    230 BC Cope's in. Banking drops to 5 turns. Start on Sistine Chapel as Shake's pre-build.

    190 BC Can now trade wtih X-man.

    130 BC Banking in. Democracy reads 7 turns. Take out loans with Persia and Babylon and build embassies with Russia and Babylon.

    70 BC Sign RoP with Hammy so I can road a little of his territory.

    30 BC I now have trade routes to Babylon and Russia.

    10 BC Trade Education to Hammy for Monarchy.

    10 AD Deomcarcy in. Free Artistry due in 5 turns.

    50 AD Start chopping forests around Atlantis.

    90 AD Russia demands Monarchy and I yield it.

    110 AD Free Artistry in, Shake's-marketplace. Gunpowder due in 4 turns.

    150 AD Add settler into Atlantis (should have done this a turn earlier).

    170 AD Market-harbor. Disband one AC to get it in, in 1 turn.

    190 AD Harbor-bank, as I have all these forests I'm chopping. Gunpowder-Chemistry due in 5 turns.
     

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