Grandkhan
Telvanni Master Wizard
Am I currently at war with the Spartans? Because it looks like I'm besieging that pink thing in Thessaly.
SprylliNES V: The Peloponnesian War
- Thread starter spryllino
- Start date
christos200
Never tell me the odds
When do we start sending orders?
Grandkan: Well, you probably ought to read the previous updates (pages 6 and 8) for details if you haven't already, but, basically, the southern Thessalian subject peoples decided to eject the Spartans from their fort in that pink thing (Heraclea in Trachis). The Larissans, Pharsalians and other supported them with troops, and a huge army laid siege to it, but they couldn't feed themselves because Trachis is a pretty poor place, so most of them (including the Larissans) went home again, leaving the Thessalian subject-peoples and a small contingent of Pharsalians to besiege Heraclea. The Spartans tried to relieve Heraclea by marching their army in Macedonia through Thessaly (which is how they got an army to the north in the first place), pillaging on the way through, but the Larissans came out and chased them back into Macedonia again.
So you're not personally besieging Heraclea, but you are at war with the Spartans.
christos: Not yet: I will tell you when. I haven't quite finished adjusting the stats and rules yet.
So you're not personally besieging Heraclea, but you are at war with the Spartans.
christos: Not yet: I will tell you when. I haven't quite finished adjusting the stats and rules yet.
OOC: I think I've pretty much got everything sorted out in terms of rules and stats, although I might tweak a few things as we go along if they clearly aren't working. I have changed quite a few stats and added in a few extra rules (in particular the one entitled Stores).
You may now post diplomacy and send orders.
Orders due by the end of the day, wherever you are, on Tuesday 11th June.
NPC Diplomacy: (some of which is diplomacy copied from before that still needs to be dealt with)
To Sparta, Corinth and the whole Peloponnesian League
From Cleonae
Spartans and allies, it is known throughout the world that no people values liberty more highly than the Spartans do, and it is common knowledge that Sparta and her allies are praised throughout the world for their noble deeds in defending the Thracians, and for her noble defence of the Lepreates and the Parrhasians and all others who have found themselves subjected to the rule of another, and for making a just and universal peace. Cleonae is an independent people, a nation that loves its true allies, but cannot love an oppressor; now we have been assigned as a subject to our neighbour Corinth, a nation which, although we have done no harm to the Corinthians in living memory, plundered our land last summer and tried to lay our territory waste. Must we truly endure such a lot when this League is renowned throughout Greece, and the Spartans are universally praised, for the fact that these allies who meet together here are free and equal?
To Athens
From Goaxis, King of the Edonians and Polles, King of the Odomantians
We would be delighted, if you so desired, to provide some new colonists to help repopulate Amphipolis.
To Athens
From the Chalcidians in Thrace
We are now willing to come to terms with you, along the lines of the Peace of Nicias, i.e. to pay the tribute as assessed in the day of Aristides, and to be allies of the League. We therefore offer our signatures to the treaty and ask the Assembly to grant us peace on that basis.
To Sparta
Cc Perdiccas of Macedonia
From Clearidas, Spartan general in the North
It is impossible for the Spartan army to move through Thessaly alone. If it is the will of the Spartan people that we march against Larissa, then it is necessary that we should have help, and accordingly if this is what we must do then the only way we can see of doing this is if we ask King Perdiccas to come to the agreement suggested last year by Perdiccas himself whereby we would help him attack King Arrhabaeus in Lyncus, and then he would help us attack Larissa.
If this is not the will of Sparta, then we would advise that you find some way of transporting us out of the north, because there is little use in us remaining here at the expense of the Macedonians if we cannot achieve anything.
To Perdiccas of Macedonia
From the Macedonian Court Chamberlain
You previously gave instructions that enough wood for fifteen ships of war should be collected, as a present to Corinth in accordance with a long-standing Corinthian petition, and that the Corinthians should be allowed to buy more, if they so wished. The wood has been amassed in your stores and is ready for collection by the Corinthians, if you would still like to give it to them.
You may now post diplomacy and send orders.
Orders due by the end of the day, wherever you are, on Tuesday 11th June.
NPC Diplomacy: (some of which is diplomacy copied from before that still needs to be dealt with)
To Sparta, Corinth and the whole Peloponnesian League
From Cleonae
Spartans and allies, it is known throughout the world that no people values liberty more highly than the Spartans do, and it is common knowledge that Sparta and her allies are praised throughout the world for their noble deeds in defending the Thracians, and for her noble defence of the Lepreates and the Parrhasians and all others who have found themselves subjected to the rule of another, and for making a just and universal peace. Cleonae is an independent people, a nation that loves its true allies, but cannot love an oppressor; now we have been assigned as a subject to our neighbour Corinth, a nation which, although we have done no harm to the Corinthians in living memory, plundered our land last summer and tried to lay our territory waste. Must we truly endure such a lot when this League is renowned throughout Greece, and the Spartans are universally praised, for the fact that these allies who meet together here are free and equal?
To Athens
From Goaxis, King of the Edonians and Polles, King of the Odomantians
We would be delighted, if you so desired, to provide some new colonists to help repopulate Amphipolis.
To Athens
From the Chalcidians in Thrace
We are now willing to come to terms with you, along the lines of the Peace of Nicias, i.e. to pay the tribute as assessed in the day of Aristides, and to be allies of the League. We therefore offer our signatures to the treaty and ask the Assembly to grant us peace on that basis.
To Sparta
Cc Perdiccas of Macedonia
From Clearidas, Spartan general in the North
It is impossible for the Spartan army to move through Thessaly alone. If it is the will of the Spartan people that we march against Larissa, then it is necessary that we should have help, and accordingly if this is what we must do then the only way we can see of doing this is if we ask King Perdiccas to come to the agreement suggested last year by Perdiccas himself whereby we would help him attack King Arrhabaeus in Lyncus, and then he would help us attack Larissa.
If this is not the will of Sparta, then we would advise that you find some way of transporting us out of the north, because there is little use in us remaining here at the expense of the Macedonians if we cannot achieve anything.
To Perdiccas of Macedonia
From the Macedonian Court Chamberlain
You previously gave instructions that enough wood for fifteen ships of war should be collected, as a present to Corinth in accordance with a long-standing Corinthian petition, and that the Corinthians should be allowed to buy more, if they so wished. The wood has been amassed in your stores and is ready for collection by the Corinthians, if you would still like to give it to them.
erez87
Lord of Random
- Joined
- May 16, 2002
- Messages
- 13,500
from Taras:
To the Italian Greek States:
Last year we have gained a magnificent victory over the Samnites and the Lucanians. But the danger of those Italian tribes still remain. We wish for the Italiote League to meet in Heraclea and discuss the possibility of a campaign against the Italian tribes to weaken those who oppose us and strengthen ourselves.
to Cumae:
It seems your city is now safe, and the Samnites do not return, for now. Support our plea for the Italiote league to force the Italians out of our way for all eternity.
Also - we wish to ask you for a closer alliance and friendship, not unlike that which we have with the Heracleans, for the protection of the Greek people lie in unity. Would you agree in entering a closer alliance and friendship than the one we currently have?
To the Italian Greek States:
Last year we have gained a magnificent victory over the Samnites and the Lucanians. But the danger of those Italian tribes still remain. We wish for the Italiote League to meet in Heraclea and discuss the possibility of a campaign against the Italian tribes to weaken those who oppose us and strengthen ourselves.
to Cumae:
It seems your city is now safe, and the Samnites do not return, for now. Support our plea for the Italiote league to force the Italians out of our way for all eternity.
Also - we wish to ask you for a closer alliance and friendship, not unlike that which we have with the Heracleans, for the protection of the Greek people lie in unity. Would you agree in entering a closer alliance and friendship than the one we currently have?
TheMeanestGuest
Warlord
To Cleonae, Sparta, and the Peloponnesian League
From Corinth
War has visited our peninsula, but its stay was made brief by the strength and valour of Spartan arms. The Corinthians deem this good, for War is the enemy of society. It was that Cleonae was subject to the city of Argos, a city then bloated with pride and malice. It was that the Argives could bear not the blessings of peace, and so their city was made the instrument of War. All know that War sows confusion wherever it should be found, and all know that War casts its cloak over the eyes of men, and so clouds their judgement with the red heat of battle.
By our action, the Corinthians sought only to deliver aid to the Spartans, who are our friends and allies. In our action we regret only our haste, for our intent was pure and good. We have considered the plight of Cleonae, and we answer. Never did we intend to insult the dignity of that city, and never did we intend to breed hatred between our peoples. What is done cannot be undone, but some good may still come of it. The Corinthians are gracious, and shall release the Cleonaeans to their own liberty, and they shall be free to rule their city as they might.
But neither shall the Corinthians allow that such error as was made should be made again, and so shall our two cities be bound in association, and we shall be as brothers. The city of Corinth therefor grants the protection of its arms to the city of Cleonae, as in turn shall the city of Cleonae grant the protection of its arms to the city of Corinth, and so that this mutual obligation weighs not heavily upon our brother, Corinth shall make no war without consideration of the word and desire of Cleonae.
Corinth deems this course both fair and equitable, and awaits the reply of Cleonae.
OOC: Essentially Corinth is proposing a looser protectorate where Cleonae has control of its domestic affairs - though not those of war or treaty - as opposed to the current regime of direct subjugation.
To Perdiccas of Macedonia
From Corinth
The Corinthians know of the generosity and grace of the King of the Macedonians, and we are well pleased that the relationship between our peoples is one of respect and peace. We bring our trade to the Macedonians when we might, but the sea is treacherous, and so too are some among those who sail upon it. We have petitioned the King of the Macedonians that he might grant us strong timber from his forests, enough for fifteen ships of war, so that the Corinthians might rebuild their fleet, and so that our place upon the waves may be made secure. We are patient, and we yet await the consideration of the King. Know that you would have our eternal gratitude should you choose to grant us such a boon.
From Corinth
War has visited our peninsula, but its stay was made brief by the strength and valour of Spartan arms. The Corinthians deem this good, for War is the enemy of society. It was that Cleonae was subject to the city of Argos, a city then bloated with pride and malice. It was that the Argives could bear not the blessings of peace, and so their city was made the instrument of War. All know that War sows confusion wherever it should be found, and all know that War casts its cloak over the eyes of men, and so clouds their judgement with the red heat of battle.
By our action, the Corinthians sought only to deliver aid to the Spartans, who are our friends and allies. In our action we regret only our haste, for our intent was pure and good. We have considered the plight of Cleonae, and we answer. Never did we intend to insult the dignity of that city, and never did we intend to breed hatred between our peoples. What is done cannot be undone, but some good may still come of it. The Corinthians are gracious, and shall release the Cleonaeans to their own liberty, and they shall be free to rule their city as they might.
But neither shall the Corinthians allow that such error as was made should be made again, and so shall our two cities be bound in association, and we shall be as brothers. The city of Corinth therefor grants the protection of its arms to the city of Cleonae, as in turn shall the city of Cleonae grant the protection of its arms to the city of Corinth, and so that this mutual obligation weighs not heavily upon our brother, Corinth shall make no war without consideration of the word and desire of Cleonae.
Corinth deems this course both fair and equitable, and awaits the reply of Cleonae.
OOC: Essentially Corinth is proposing a looser protectorate where Cleonae has control of its domestic affairs - though not those of war or treaty - as opposed to the current regime of direct subjugation.
To Perdiccas of Macedonia
From Corinth
The Corinthians know of the generosity and grace of the King of the Macedonians, and we are well pleased that the relationship between our peoples is one of respect and peace. We bring our trade to the Macedonians when we might, but the sea is treacherous, and so too are some among those who sail upon it. We have petitioned the King of the Macedonians that he might grant us strong timber from his forests, enough for fifteen ships of war, so that the Corinthians might rebuild their fleet, and so that our place upon the waves may be made secure. We are patient, and we yet await the consideration of the King. Know that you would have our eternal gratitude should you choose to grant us such a boon.
Bair_the_Normal
転輪聖王
From: Macedonia
To: Corinth
Your requested lumber, indeed amounting enough for fifteen ships, is ready for collection. If you ever wish to buy more Macedonian lumber, please do not hesitate to do so.
From: Macedonia
To: Sparta
Once again, we request Spartan help against Lyncus, in exchange for Macedonian assistance in Thessaly. We hope that we can come to a reasonable agreement.
To: Corinth
Your requested lumber, indeed amounting enough for fifteen ships, is ready for collection. If you ever wish to buy more Macedonian lumber, please do not hesitate to do so.
From: Macedonia
To: Sparta
Once again, we request Spartan help against Lyncus, in exchange for Macedonian assistance in Thessaly. We hope that we can come to a reasonable agreement.
To: Taras, Greek Cities in Italy.
From: Posidonia
It is imperative that all Greek Cities in Italy remain united, so long as the Italian tribes threathern our people & lands. It is for this reason we will attend the Italiote League meeting. We wish other Greek cities heed the call of Taras, & unite against the Italian tribesmen.
From: Posidonia
It is imperative that all Greek Cities in Italy remain united, so long as the Italian tribes threathern our people & lands. It is for this reason we will attend the Italiote League meeting. We wish other Greek cities heed the call of Taras, & unite against the Italian tribesmen.
Thlayli
Le Pétit Prince
From: Athens
To: Goaxis, King of the Edonians and Polles, King of the Odomantians
We shall send a party of suitable klerouchoi immediately. Athenai thanks and praises you for your friendship, good king.
From: Athens
To: The Thracian Chalcidians
Your plea shall be conveyed to the Assembly. Though the Chalcidians have defied the Peace, and thus may merit a harsher punishment, it is the recommendation of Alcibiades to the Assembly that these terms be accepted. We will await their vote.
To: Goaxis, King of the Edonians and Polles, King of the Odomantians
We shall send a party of suitable klerouchoi immediately. Athenai thanks and praises you for your friendship, good king.
From: Athens
To: The Thracian Chalcidians
Your plea shall be conveyed to the Assembly. Though the Chalcidians have defied the Peace, and thus may merit a harsher punishment, it is the recommendation of Alcibiades to the Assembly that these terms be accepted. We will await their vote.
christos200
Never tell me the odds
War declared on Orestis.
From Upper Macedonia
To Southern Macedonia:
We want a Defensive alliance?
From Upper Macedonia
To Southern Macedonia:
We want a Defensive alliance?
JohannaK
Heroically Clueless
OOC: How can it be I did not expect that when I should have? 
OOC: Thlayli, I would preferably like you to play more than the Athenian state than just Alcibiades, because that would potentially amount to NPCing Athens at times. Can I suggest that you chiefly play the Council? That way, your recommendations will be plausibly accepted by the Assembly most of the time, but I can still fit in miscellaneous upsets in the Assembly if necessary.
IC:
All Italiot states will send representatives to the meeting of the Italiot League in Heraclea. However, most of them, especially the ones in the toe of Italy, are extremely sceptical about the necessity and desirability of sending their young men into battle for the defence of someone else's territory, and even more sceptical about any sort of offensive campaign.
From Cumae
To Taras
We consider ourselves as obliged and friendly to you as it is possible to be, and will follow your lead in almost any regard. However, it is not feasible that such coordination of government and regular interaction that happens between you Heraclea should happen between you and us, because we are much too far away.
From Cleonae
To Corinth and Sparta
We find the Corinthians' suggestion acceptable, to have an alliance with Corinth without any particular subjection to Corinth. However, we would nevertheless like to have a separate seat in the Peloponnesian League like every other independent city in the Peloponnese. Is that acceptable?
From Seleucus of Orestis
To King Perdiccas of Macedonia
In recent years, we have had few disputes with you, King, and we know that you have been many times at war with Arrhabaeus, the stinking half-blood Illyrian who calls himself "King" of Lyncus. Will you make an alliance with us, and make it firm, perhaps, by a royal marriage, to establish us as companions for many years to come?
IC:
All Italiot states will send representatives to the meeting of the Italiot League in Heraclea. However, most of them, especially the ones in the toe of Italy, are extremely sceptical about the necessity and desirability of sending their young men into battle for the defence of someone else's territory, and even more sceptical about any sort of offensive campaign.
From Cumae
To Taras
We consider ourselves as obliged and friendly to you as it is possible to be, and will follow your lead in almost any regard. However, it is not feasible that such coordination of government and regular interaction that happens between you Heraclea should happen between you and us, because we are much too far away.
From Cleonae
To Corinth and Sparta
We find the Corinthians' suggestion acceptable, to have an alliance with Corinth without any particular subjection to Corinth. However, we would nevertheless like to have a separate seat in the Peloponnesian League like every other independent city in the Peloponnese. Is that acceptable?
From Seleucus of Orestis
To King Perdiccas of Macedonia
In recent years, we have had few disputes with you, King, and we know that you have been many times at war with Arrhabaeus, the stinking half-blood Illyrian who calls himself "King" of Lyncus. Will you make an alliance with us, and make it firm, perhaps, by a royal marriage, to establish us as companions for many years to come?
erez87
Lord of Random
- Joined
- May 16, 2002
- Messages
- 13,500
from Taras
to Cumae:
That is understood. We hope the Italiote League will vote to push back the Samnites and Lucanians so your city will be more protected.
to Italiote league:
We put forward the idea of a campaign against the Samnites to push their advance back and attempt to bring Capua back to the cultured world. If such a job seems too much for us, we suggest an invasion of the Lucanian lands to capitulate them and weaken them enough to not threaten another Greek again.
to Cumae:
That is understood. We hope the Italiote League will vote to push back the Samnites and Lucanians so your city will be more protected.
to Italiote league:
We put forward the idea of a campaign against the Samnites to push their advance back and attempt to bring Capua back to the cultured world. If such a job seems too much for us, we suggest an invasion of the Lucanian lands to capitulate them and weaken them enough to not threaten another Greek again.
The Conference of the Italiot League at Heraclea
Cumae agrees with Taras, and welcomes any sort of campaign to rid Campania of the Samnites. Of course, Cumae cannot afford to send its scanty population away from the city on campaign against the Lucanians.
Metapontium will follow the Tarentine lead, but would rather not take any offensive action, as it is very much too risky.
Elea advises negotiations with the Lucanians, and thinks that, while we cannot allow Cumae or any other Greek city to fall, prosperity can only be found in peaceful trade with the barbarians.
Thurii thinks your campaign was a failure last year, and that more than likely you will fail again, perhaps more drastically, if you continue to attempt offensive warfare against the barbarians. Thurii is also just as worried about the Crotoniats as about the Lucanians.
Croton, highly as it values the friendship of the Tarentine people, does not believe that the Lucanians are a threat to it, and does not think that Cumae is any particular concern of its own.
Caulonia would only take part in a general action by all or most of the Italiot states.
Locri says it is too concerned about present instability within its own metropolis and colonies to help.
Rhegium likewise says it is too concerned about the oligarchic party in the city, and about the possibility of being attacked by another city if it sends an army to fight so far from home.
TheMeanestGuest
Warlord
To Cleonae and Sparta
From Corinth
The Corinthians are amenable to this proposal, though we must require as a condition of our protectorate that - apart from position and representation within the Peloponnesian League - matters of treaty and of war as they concern the city of Cleonae remain within the dominion of the city of Corinth.
From Corinth
The Corinthians are amenable to this proposal, though we must require as a condition of our protectorate that - apart from position and representation within the Peloponnesian League - matters of treaty and of war as they concern the city of Cleonae remain within the dominion of the city of Corinth.
erez87
Lord of Random
- Joined
- May 16, 2002
- Messages
- 13,500
Taras sees there is no unanimous support in the league for action against those who are seeking to destroy us actively, as they did in Cumae and Heraclea, and so will not take actions this year. We hope we do not have to wait for another city to come under attack for the league to see what is right.
OOC:
Masada, Thlayli: I'm not necessarily absolutely dead set against having a co-player set-up for Athens, but the way I did it last time didn't work, and I can't yet think of a way to do it that would work. If you and Thlayli do want to and can come up with a way of doing it, though, either in time for this update cycle or a future one, I will be receptive. The important things are that I don't want to end up practically NPCing the end result of Athens's actions, and I don't want to be absolutely reliant on the conflict between your order sets each turn to produce a policy (in case one of you misses an update or something).
IC:
From Cleonae
To Corinth and Sparta
We are amenable to Corinth's proposal, and, unless we hear further, will expect to adopt that arrangement from the new year.
From Thurii
To Taras
We would like to point out that it was only because you marched an army right into the middle of Lucanian territory, as far as we can see, that the Lucanians attacked Heraclea in force on this occasion. Cumae certainly is under threat from the Samnites, but we have seen nothing from the Lucanians more substantial than large raids in recent years - until you attacked them. If the Lucanians pursue a united policy and attack us in strength, know that it will be have been all the sooner for your folly.
Masada, Thlayli: I'm not necessarily absolutely dead set against having a co-player set-up for Athens, but the way I did it last time didn't work, and I can't yet think of a way to do it that would work. If you and Thlayli do want to and can come up with a way of doing it, though, either in time for this update cycle or a future one, I will be receptive. The important things are that I don't want to end up practically NPCing the end result of Athens's actions, and I don't want to be absolutely reliant on the conflict between your order sets each turn to produce a policy (in case one of you misses an update or something).
IC:
From Cleonae
To Corinth and Sparta
We are amenable to Corinth's proposal, and, unless we hear further, will expect to adopt that arrangement from the new year.
From Thurii
To Taras
We would like to point out that it was only because you marched an army right into the middle of Lucanian territory, as far as we can see, that the Lucanians attacked Heraclea in force on this occasion. Cumae certainly is under threat from the Samnites, but we have seen nothing from the Lucanians more substantial than large raids in recent years - until you attacked them. If the Lucanians pursue a united policy and attack us in strength, know that it will be have been all the sooner for your folly.
erez87
Lord of Random
- Joined
- May 16, 2002
- Messages
- 13,500
To Thurii: Should we accept the raids as part of nature? Or should we strive to stop those? And what is the difference between Lucanians and Samnites? Both comes from the same pool of barbarians who wish to destroy us all.
And if you agree Cumae is threatened, why not support them and march on to Capua to free the city states from the barbarian hordes? I know the reason for that. I know it well. It is because you are cowardly.
And if you agree Cumae is threatened, why not support them and march on to Capua to free the city states from the barbarian hordes? I know the reason for that. I know it well. It is because you are cowardly.
