StarCraft 2 pro-gaming and 1v1

Alot of early game stuff is pointless clicking though. Even then it's still not a very useful stat, it's only really a measure of how much and how fast one person can do stuff.

This is what I was asking about--I see the microing in late battles with tons of units, people try to avoid damage and inflict the maximum amount on their enemy, etc. while managing their own base and keeping units in production. I get that.

But early game, it's a bunch of resource collecting, which doesn't look like it takes 300 clicks a minute to set up (you have build queues and rally points to help), and scouting. I saw one game where they had little bars showing the current APM for each of the players, and this one guy was clicking about a half-inch away to move his scout, and doing so repeatedly. The commentator mentioned he was trying to keep his APM up, as if self-inflicted carpal tunnel was some holy grail unto itself.
 
That's probably just to warm up.
 
It's partly to keep a rhythm going throughout the game- keeping a high speed early on keeps your hand from getting cold and sluggish further into a game. Also, early on players may be optimizing their resource harvesting- since some mineral patches are closer to your starting base than others, it is useful to micromanage their movements so that you can get 2 harvesters on each of the close patches, working in shifts with each other, rather than having all of your early harvesters spread across all of your minerals. Essentially, beyond being a way to keep your hands warm and active, it helps you to squeeze out just a few more minerals, which may give you a tiny lead, which can prove to be critical later in the game, especially as timings get tighter and tighter in high-level play.
 
It's partly to keep a rhythm going throughout the game- keeping a high speed early on keeps your hand from getting cold and sluggish further into a game. Also, early on players may be optimizing their resource harvesting- since some mineral patches are closer to your starting base than others, it is useful to micromanage their movements so that you can get 2 harvesters on each of the close patches, working in shifts with each other, rather than having all of your early harvesters spread across all of your minerals. Essentially, beyond being a way to keep your hands warm and active, it helps you to squeeze out just a few more minerals, which may give you a tiny lead, which can prove to be critical later in the game, especially as timings get tighter and tighter in high-level play.

mineral optimization probably only has an effect in pvps

still, better than just sitting there masturbating for the first two minutes
 
Danish, balance has changed a fair bit, and the metagame has shifted a lot at different levels. I couldn't myself speak for what things are like for Diamond Terrans, but my intrinsic anti-terran bias says 'ezpz'.

I'm pretty sure Terran was broken early on in SC2's life. I essentially coasted my way to Diamond (skipping Platinum completely) with Marines+Marauders+Siege Tanks. Almost no variation, no matter what race or strategy my opponent used; same build order, same timing, same units. I have a feeling that wasn't supposed to happen.
 
That's still arguably true. Siege tank damage was nerfed a long time ago (maybe before you quit playing, but I can't remember), but marines + medivacs + tanks is still the standard strategy against terran and zerg (switch tanks with ghosts for protoss). Some players like GoOdy just go straight mech in all three matchups (i.e. siege tank/thor and occasionally raven).

In GSL's Code S, there's currently no protoss players left. It's five terrans and one zerg.
 
That's probably just to warm up.

It's hard to wrap my head around a warm-up for clicking a mouse, but when you are inputting commands at the rate of 5/second, I guess you might need it. I suppose you have to have the hotkeys memorized on your keyboard as well.
 
It's hard to wrap my head around a warm-up for clicking a mouse, but when you are inputting commands at the rate of 5/second, I guess you might need it. I suppose you have to have the hotkeys memorized on your keyboard as well.

The mouse does very little clicks compared to how much you're flipping through the control groups. There's a certain rhythm to it, which is called "the tap": you have your harvester production facilities on hotkey "4" (for example), your unit producers on "5", and your scout/main unit groups on "1" and "2". One constantly flips through all of them to check their progress.
 
And everyone has their own little habits. I have a rhythm for my queen larvae injects- every queen is hotkeyed to zero, so I press zero backspace v backspace v backspace v... and so on for every hatchery I own. Backspace cycles through my hatcheries and v injects from the controlled units, so I'm able to do all of my larvae injects in about 1 second- mostly thanks to the fact that I can stretch my hand to tap the backspace key with my left index finger while my pinkie finger hits v.
 
Teach me how to play zerg sometime. I've wanted to switch to random but I haven't an inkling as to how to keep track of larva and queens as zerg.
 
Are the Protoss really unpopular in high-level professional play? Seems like I've seen several Zerg v. Terran matches, not too many with the Protoss.
 
Are the Protoss really unpopular in high-level professional play? Seems like I've seen several Zerg v. Terran matches, not too many with the Protoss.

It's because TvP is hugely imbalanced, so it's more than likely in any S-level tournament that all the protoss players get eliminated before the Ro8. And, casters are more likely to show games near the end of the tournament, so you're more likely to see TvZ and TvT than any other match-up.

This is more true for Korea than Europe and America though.
 
In GSL's Code S, there's currently no protoss players left. It's five terrans and one zerg.
Isn't it 7 terrans and 1 zerg?

Teach me how to play zerg sometime. I've wanted to switch to random but I haven't an inkling as to how to keep track of larva and queens as zerg.
Sure! BTW, I just hotkey all of my hatcheries to 1 and queens to 0, while keeping my main army on 2 and auxiliary forces (mutas, zerglings for sneak attacks around the map and infestors) on 3 through 9.

Are the Protoss really unpopular in high-level professional play? Seems like I've seen several Zerg v. Terran matches, not too many with the Protoss.
In the Korean scene, the Terran metagame is much better developed- there are a vastly greater variety of viable build options that have been worked out for Terran. Right now, Protoss players can't figure out how to deal with it, and the greater number of elite Terran players snowballs the problem- with more people developing new strategies and fleshing out older ones, the Terran metagame evolves much more quickly than those of the Zerg and Protoss.
 
Right, seven. My mistake. I heard NesTea got eliminated, which baffles me. It means it's probably going to come down to MvP versus MMA again. Bleh.
 
NesTea getting eliminated didn't surprise me. I mean he was going up against MvP, who he hasn't really done very well again. Their last few games was something like 8 - 1 in favour of MvP.
 

Link to video.

Probably the best TvT game ever at the moment. Unfortunately the rest of the games after that one followed the normal GSL finals route and were fairly one sided. :(
 
Are the Protoss really unpopular in high-level professional play? Seems like I've seen several Zerg v. Terran matches, not too many with the Protoss.

It's because TvP is hugely imbalanced, so it's more than likely in any S-level tournament that all the protoss players get eliminated before the Ro8. And, casters are more likely to show games near the end of the tournament, so you're more likely to see TvZ and TvT than any other match-up.

This is more true for Korea than Europe and America though.

in my opinion protoss has always had the reputation "easiest to play, lowest ceiling," something that dates all the way back to bw and 2001

protoss is the easiest race to macro in both bw and star2, and always had the reputation (especially in bw) of being the "a-move race." protoss was by far the most popular race in the foreign community because of the much shorter learning curve and the possibility of keeping up with more mechanically skilled players. there are several bw progamers, stork being the most famous, that are notorious for having far less apm than their terran and zerg peers.

fast forward to sc2, and the same basically holds true. the foreigner scene has been dominated by protoss (and specifically huk, naniwa, and kiwikaki) until very recently, when thorzain and especially stephano (!) have begun to show real results against koreans. stephano's rise especially in my opinion has been unique because he has mechanical talent on the level of the koreans, unlike players like thorzain (nicknamed by koreans as the "spoon terran" because of his mechanical inability to kill opponents quickly with micromanagement based rushes, thus opting to play slow, methodical games where he waits for his opponent to suicide into him, killing them so slowly it was as if he was doing it with a spoon) and goody (the infamous sub 100 apm mech player whose mechanics are so bad he often queues up 5 units in his factories) who mostly relied on less mechanically demanding turtling to win games. (the protosses played protoss and thus mostly relied on some variation of warp gate rush from 1 or 2 base, which is comparatively easier to execute. obviously they showed flashes of innovation but their bread and butter that won them tournaments was rush based warpgate play).

korean tvp balance has shifted since patch 1.4 came out and the 1/1/1 all in is no longer effective. protosses have begun to use both multi pronged attacks and upgrade timings to their advantage to overrun terran bioballs. i think with perfect ghost and templar control tvp still favors terran, but usually control is less than perfect and indeed at masters and low grandmasters level i would say the matchup favors protoss because of the ease of a-moving shift zzzzzzz tttt zealot archon compared top the necessity of kiting and ghost control as terran.

also, with regard to race talent, the majority of korean progamers who have switched from broodwar are playing terran. notably the game at date of release (which is when most koreans who switched started playing the game, unlike foreigners who began in beta) was incredibly imbalanced at time of release, way more imbalanced than the game was now, and even protoss players in bw (like clare) picked terran. if star2 v 1.0 was used in tournaments today, using the map pool of august 2010, it would literally be impossible for terran players to drop a set.

Right, seven. My mistake. I heard NesTea got eliminated, which baffles me. It means it's probably going to come down to MvP versus MMA again. Bleh.

NesTea getting eliminated didn't surprise me. I mean he was going up against MvP, who he hasn't really done very well again. Their last few games was something like 8 - 1 in favour of MvP.

MVP always wins. He's boringly good.

you're of course forgetting the massive slump he went on between the end of the gsl world championship and mlg anaheim. mvp is endearingly awkward and isn't very comfortable with showing personality on stage, but to call his play boring is a fundamental misunderstanding of the game. not only is mvp the best player in the world right now, but he also has been one of the most innovative.

notably, mvp invented marine split versus baneling micro, showing it on television in gsl2, something that has usually been accredited to clare in popular imagination because of his association with marines. mvp has shown perhaps the greatest variation in builds in gsl history, with ridiculous games massing ravens, mech against protoss, and 2 base bunker contain variations on 1/1/1 play. despite his reputation as "super solid" (which is a complete misnomer based on the fact that he rarely loses), he doesn't hesitate to cut ridiculous amounts of corners in order to gain an edge in timing attacks. notably he had a hilarious game during his slump before mlg anaheim where he lost to qxc of all people because he went pure hellion in a tvt and didn't account for banshees at all. of course, had qxc not gone banshees, mvp's build would've worked brilliantly because of the corners cut, and people would talk about how "solid" he is, mostly because most people are too stupid to think for themselves and take artosis's mangled and often outright wrong analysis word for word.

oh, also, nestea's zvt kind of sucks. his zvz and zvp records are mindblowing but his zvt overall is pretty pedestrian and probably inferior to zergs like drg and leenock (and maybe even stephano (!))
 
notably, mvp invented marine split versus baneling micro, showing it on television in gsl2, something that has usually been accredited to clare in popular imagination because of his association with marines.

If you're talking about the games vs Kyrix, it was MKP who first showcased amazing marine splitting vs banelings, not MVP. Games 2 and 5 of either the quarter finals or semi finals were were it was really shown off.


Link to video.
 
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