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Starting location is as much a factor in difficulty as the difficulty level you play

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by tdy99, Jul 14, 2012.

  1. plasmacannon

    plasmacannon Chieftain

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    LOL!
    It sounds like we should change the title to, "Acronyms are as much a factor in difficulty as the difficulty level you play."
    :D
     
  2. Seraiel

    Seraiel Chieftain

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    :lol:

    That joke seriously made me laugh :)
     
  3. King Kalmah

    King Kalmah Magyar Madness

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    I just don't understand how temperate which should mean "mild" ends up getting you LESS grassland.Esp as you level up you notice less good land.Tropical/Jungle maps are the best because they let you have the grassland eventually which would never happen to plains.

    I wish there was a mod that let the land change after time...Like if you have alot of farms the land could turn into plains and then desert like the Dust bowl...or if you have alot of irrigation near desert lands they should turn to plains after a few hundred years.I loved the tree replant feature in CIV3 and was bummed when it was removed...
     
  4. plasmacannon

    plasmacannon Chieftain

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    Global Warming will change tiles to deserts.
    You can irrigate a desert tile, IF you have a city adjacent to an oasis And are irrigating to a tile adjacent to the city And have Civil service for the Spreads Irrigation, but it won't generate any food. You'd think it would net you 1 food, plus 1 more after Biology.

    I have tried that mod that creates snow randomally on tiles, but haven't seen any that let you upgrade the tiles normally.

    Some of the mods give you a random chance of generating a food resourse, if you farm a tile long enough, just like the mines can generate a gold and such.

    The VIP mod does this.
     
  5. King Kalmah

    King Kalmah Magyar Madness

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    I haven't seen desert tiles in a while...from Global Warming...but I do understand the mechanics...I just wish the devs went one step further...and made the world change over time...the desert of the Sahara was once a forest...:eek:

    I like that idea of food being generated after a few hundred years or so.I think if they made a mod that would not only use random events,but that would also take the land into consideration that would be unique.Also I remember a mod that let you "grow" your forests back,but I'm not sure if it was earlier in the game or if it was with a certain modern tech.
     
  6. Kesshi

    Kesshi Chieftain

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    It wouldn't be difficult to make it so that if you worked a farm for X number of turns it would grow (such as a cottage into a hamlet.) Nor would it be difficult to make working a farm have a random chance to "pop" food exactly as mines have a random chance to pop minerals.
     
  7. Ramesses-Rules

    Ramesses-Rules Chieftain

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    At Immortal level, I think the immediate neighbors are about as important as the land quality. For example, if I have Alex and Monty right next to me, I have to waste a lot resources to avoid (or handle) an early war. That's not the kind of start position I prefer.
     
  8. Mec AntiKythera

    Mec AntiKythera Chieftain

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    GP = Great Person
    GPP = Great Person Points


    And, why can't one plant a forest? Yes, it takes a long time but it is done often enough. Then again so is importing cattle and horses so if you start down that road you would be able to turn most tile into food specials. Don't want that.
     
  9. damerell

    damerell Slow Worker

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    Sometimes this is just down to gameplay. There's meant, I think, to be a tradeoff between chopping a forest for early benefit, and taking the long-term payoff in health (and ultimately coming out, once you can add a lumbermill and a railway, with a reasonable tile). Of course, "chop early" seems to be the answer anyway - but if the forest could be replanted when the city grew unhealthy, or when lumbermills were available, it would be no question at all.
     
  10. TheWilltoAct

    TheWilltoAct I am observe

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    Forests as a tile improvement are largely unimpressive as they give a mediocre yield for much of the game. I still enjoy keeping them around; they add a little flavor to the usual farms/towns, and they can help keep unhealthiness to a minimum. Still it takes lumber mills and railroads for them to finally standout. Frankly they feel like an afterthought in the Firaxis suite of tile improvements, especially since they give a huge production payout if chopped.

    A small change like allowing unimproved riverside forest to generate 1 :commerce: might be helpful. IMO.
     
  11. elmurcis

    elmurcis Chieftain

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    Or maybe +1 hammer for riverside forest? (Cause most of wood was transported by rivers until we built big trucks and trains..)
     
  12. damerell

    damerell Slow Worker

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    I fear, not even then. True, with a lumber mill and a railway, a forest is up to 3 hammers (and, if you saved enough of them, somewhere between 1/3 and 2/5 of a food-equivalent); but many other improvements are also getting better with techs found around then.

    If I've got 3 or 5 forests which aren't next to a river _and_ aren't hills, I'll be tempted to keep them around, but other than that...
     
  13. TLF

    TLF Chieftain

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    That doesn't make them an afterthought.
    It's about choices.
    The immediate gain from chopping followed by the health and global warming problems, or forgo the chopping for fewer future problems.

    It's the same issue we face in real life.
     
  14. damerell

    damerell Slow Worker

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    I agree, as above, that that's how it's meant to work. But sadly I don't think that's how it does work. The health problems don't really count because you've only got to generate 2/5 of a food per chopped forest to get back where you started. The global warming problems don't encourage forest preservation for three reasons.

    Firstly, you've got to survive to the point where it's an issue; you can only afford to take long-term benefits over short-term gain once your empire is well established, and when you consider chopping out your first settler, you are anything but well established.

    Secondly, as in reality, the nation that chops or pollutes gets the benefits, but the disbenefits are shared evenly - and worse yet, you're much more concerned with relative empire strengths than absolute prosperity than you might be in reality. Let the whole world be desert, provided I own half the desert; I'll still win the game. To make the mechanic work in Civ you'd have to have diplomacy benefits for taking action, or extra benefits under Environmentalism [1], or something.

    Thirdly, it's academic because the AI will chop all the forests it can anyway, and global warming is inevitable.

    I think the description of it as an afterthought is fair enough. I see how it's all meant to work, much like you describe. But it doesn't, because the answer is, 99% of the time, chop away and chop the lot.

    [1] Incidentally, I'm often struck by the irony of thinking "Environmentalism? Great. Now we can build lots more factories and coal-fired power plants."
     
  15. TheWilltoAct

    TheWilltoAct I am observe

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    ^ In Vanilla, Environmentalism bore a little closer to the traditional 'save the forests!' shtick.

    I had to load it up to be sure, but Environmentalism used to give happiness for each jungle/forest tile in the BFC. Forest preserves now handle that role, but I doubt many people build them. Even in BTS I've tried preserving jungles just for the heck of it, but even with severe unhappiness it's hard to imagine sacrificing a grass tile just for 1 :).
     
  16. King Kalmah

    King Kalmah Magyar Madness

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    I do remember building forests preserves alot before I stepped up to Noble and even less now that I play Prince,but I will say that if you have a high population city/very unhealthy and you combine it with a National Park/forge and set to produce Reasearch...Cha ching...
     
  17. TheWilltoAct

    TheWilltoAct I am observe

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    Hey now, Forest preserves are an advanced tactic, for Monarch and above! :lol:

    I'm not understanding how a National Park would influence building research, could you explain?
     
  18. King Kalmah

    King Kalmah Magyar Madness

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    LOL I just read my post and yes it is hard to make sense of what I was saying...I think I mean that if you want a science city the National park will free up people to work the scientist slot.

    ohhh it took me a while to figure out my meaning,but I think what I mean is when working with a high food city and no healthy resources are near that a National Park will help it become a great healthy city.Also as far as the forge goes it will boost the speed of how fast you build Universities,Observatories and it rushes the National Park too.Plus once the Park is finished it removes the unhealthy waste from the city freeing up your work force in a high food city.

    It would only boost production for the short run and then once the NP is built it is good for alot of Scientist,but you are right it will not translate to go research yields...

    My apologies about my earlier post it was made in the morning at work.
     
  19. TheWilltoAct

    TheWilltoAct I am observe

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    Well that seems clearer now, I'm glad you are able to interpret for yourself! LoL :p
     
  20. Crimson Phantom

    Crimson Phantom Chieftain

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    I dunno, I'm playing ROM:AND with the Giant Earth Map, and the Turks got a starting location in Ukraine; their capital is surrounded by nothing but plains. They have the largest city (22) and the most number of cities (9) by 500 A.D. playing on Marathon.
     

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