Stealing workers with Woodsman 2 / Guerilla 2

[gavenkoa]

As I understand there is a flow in AI implementation regarding Woodsman 2 / Guerilla 2 promotions.

Early Warrior with Woodsman 2 on forest or Archer with Guerilla 2 on the hills can do that...

I've read: AI assumes that your Woodsman can't move faster that 1 tile per T through the forest.

Is this true?

Can I steal workers without Woodsman / Guerilla? Like with regular Charriot?

I mean situation when you are at war with AI. With peaceful AI I can steal workers on the border by declaring war.

Is Great General +1 move also do the trick?

 

[gavenkoa]

What is a mechanic of Worker stealing?

I stole one accidentally with:



As I understand to use Woodsman/Guerilla you should place your unit 2 tiles away from border, preferably be able to oversee "fat" resource and wait, like here (it is my imagination, I don't know algorithm):



Having no roads in green square or Chariots and forest in green square guaranty safety of Warrior.

 

[gavenkoa]

My experiment failed:



AI worker built improvement (can't repeat operation for this spot again) and Archer waits for me (I cant see him until capture Worker, screen is from World Builder).

How to you reliable steal workers?

 

[Anysense]

The safest is to steal workers when AI still has only 2 archers, they won't leave the city, so it is perfectly safe to grab workers even in the first ring. Does not work on Quick/Normal, because AI will build third archer too soon. There are exceptions, of course. When the map is crowded, there is a chance to steal a worker on turn 1 or 2, before third archer is out. Another exception is when AI opens with a boat.

Otherwise you need to be very careful, because at least 1 archer will be roaming near the cap. In your case you could see the archer if your warrior were stationed 1W of the corn.

 

[gavenkoa]

In your case you could see the archer if your warrior were stationed 1W of the corn

Unfortunately other tiles adjusted to 1W of corn doesn't provide view of Corn. Do I need repeatedly to jump to the border and back again (to end turn 2 tiles away from the border)?

Does AI know that I am at the border? I see everything 1 tile off the fog but nothing 2 tiles far from the border. If it is the case I see no "AI bug" here. You ambush worker from the fog.

I saw discussion that AI doesn't take into account Woodsman promotion when calculating threats. Is it the case? I treat usage of woodsman without fog like an exploit.

 

[Gumbolt]

All about timing and catching workers unguarded. Catching workers on forest works a treat.

 

[Anysense]

Do I need repeatedly to jump to the border and back again (to end turn 2 tiles away from the border)?

If you are at war then this is probably the only way, you would need another warrior to watch that forested hill, though. Just another reason to make ceasefire ASAP.

AI ignores extra movement promotion (morale). Not sure about woodsman and guerilla. I think I did workerstealing with woodsman II once, but can't remember details. Anyway, it is more adviseble to learn about worker-stealing in normal conditions rather than with very early WMII warrior, which happens once in a lifetime, if ever.

 

[Gumbolt]

He can't make a ceasefire as he is playing the always war game. Not sure why he created this additional post. My experience on always war games is the Ai will make mistakes if you use woodsman 2 promo. Especially if you stop a settler with archer heading towatds a new city. The Settler always retreats while the archers stay put.

 

[Anysense]

always war

Oh, just some insignificant detail, not worth mentioning at all

 

[gavenkoa]

it is more adviseble to learn about worker-stealing in normal conditions

As for normal conditions I expect to get only one worker with civ that I definitely want to smash. It slows rival and more importantly boosts me. When I stole a worker from Washington he accepted ceasefire in ~15T.

In late game I won't bother with worker stealing.

In my new attempts Always War I tried to make Woodsman 2 and hunt for the workers. I managed to capture 2. One is on easy, another was on the hill road leading to 2 cities and I stepped with two Woodsmans. One was killed by Archer, other secured Worker. Good price.

So it is possible to exchange Woodsman2 Warrior on Worker with support of another ))

AI ignores extra movement promotion (morale).

I've never operated deep into enemy territory. This probably opens worker stealing in later game. Because fog doesn't hide your units for an ambush. They should hide in cities when you enter the territory.

 

[Anysense]

They should hide in cities when you enter the territory.

This is the point - they don't. As long as AI thinks that it's workers are under no immediate threat it won't hide them. But most of the late-game worker-stealing happens right after capturing a city, when one can use enemy's roads.

Is there solid evidence that fog matters for AI? I have always been under impression that it does not.

 

[gavenkoa]

Is there solid evidence that fog matters for AI?

I'd like to know this too. K-mod author states that he decreased amount of cheating by AI:

It's also worth noting that the AI in K-Mod actually cheats /less/ than the standard AI; not more. (For those who don't know; the standard AI 'cheats' by sometimes knowing what is on certain plots without actually seeing them. This still sometimes happens in K-Mod, but it happens far less.)

See https://github.com/karadoc/Civ4-K-Mod

I don't understand why AI are scouting and places military units on a hill for extended period of time (for spying or to threaten to capture city if I move defense?).

 

[Lain]

I am currently trying to learn about the intricacies of worker stealing aswell and I found this valuable thread on the topic https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...tiful-method-to-abuse-your-neighbours.470157/

Some good stuff for 'Always War' too.

 

[Tobiyogi]

AI ignores extra movement promotion (morale). Not sure about woodsman and guerilla. I think I did workerstealing with woodsman II once, but can't remember details. Anyway, it is more adviseble to learn about worker-stealing in normal conditions rather than with very early WMII warrior, which happens once in a lifetime, if ever.

In my exp, getting to WM2 is not too difficult. If your first won fight was an attack (not defending), you already earn 2 exp points for WM1. Maybe you find a scout or some wolves what brings you soon to 5 points. Having WM2 is a guarantee for worker stealing, because AI archers won't attack a warrior with 100% terrain bonus. You have to make sure to end on a forest tile of course. When you camp on a forest tile next to the city, the AI will eventually attack when having stacked 6 or 7 archers. Stupid cowards

 

[gavenkoa]

Some info about AI visibility tricks here:

https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/ai-resources-vision.510635/

Yes, that radar as I like to call it is indeed determined by movement of the units. IIRC, 1 units have a grid of 5x5 while 2 have much bigger. And it's even more bigger once Engineering is enabled for the AI or railroads are disposed under.

And that crazy omniscience is really seen in all aspects of SoD or assaulting nary reaching places never explored.