Strategy when Isolated?

[Kong99]

Howdy,

I started a standard game, Large map, Epic, Fractal, Prince, I was given Roosevelt. I realized early on that I was alone on a good size continent. I sent out a Galley to discover what I could. I found another smaller continent unoccupied and below this another continent with one Civ, Elisabeth. This is all I could access before I could get to Optics and send out a Caravel. Elisabeth would NOT trade tech with me, she was friendly, but would not trade. We were roughly equal in score and tech. I knew once I saw that I was most likely in trouble. Eventually I ran into more civs who were ahead of me. But I was able to trade many techs and got mid-pack. Then I ran into the last Civ, Tokugawa and he was 500-600 points ahead of everyone.

At this point I'm not sure how I can win, well I felt that way once Elisabeth was the only Civ I could contact and would not trade tech.

Just curious what some of your strategies would have been once you realised you were isolated. Should I have rushed to Optics to get access to the Caravel?

Still doing average on Prince, I think the key is figuring out how to use Specilaist correctly, in particular generating GP's.

 

[Snaaty]

I recently played the same maptype and speed and posted a short summary of the strategy I used in this forum in the following thread (sorry, since I´m also quite new here, I don´t know how to post links):

Deity level challenge, huge archipelago map (including strategy and tips)

Dont mind the diff. level, should also be usable on others. Key is to specialise in certain techs the AI researches late so you can trade them out to various AI´s. Also, I didn`s sail out myself, I just waited for the others to find me...

Hope it helps



See you

Snaaty

 

[a0161613]

providing you expand well enough i cant see a problem in being able to catch up or get close at least.

if you rushed to optics at the expense of a few developing cities, you will be in trouble.

 

[Sisiutil]

A civ will not tech trade unless and until it has contact with at least 2 civs, which is probably why Lizzie wouldn't trade with you--she was probably just as isolated.

The nice thing about isolation is that you're pretty safe from invasion for a long time. You can focus on non-military builds (except to deal with barbs) and expansion, even wonders. But yes, I would prioritize teching towards Optics and Caravels to meet the other civs and start tech trading with them.

 

[jkp1187]

Do you have a 4000BC save file you could share, by any chance?

 

[synthboy]

Although Roosevelt isn't perhaps the best leader you could have just bottled up and gone for a cultural victory. If you've missed the early religions (not unlikely) then it may be a bit of a chore to chase the later ones but it's usually do-able and although it might not be the prettiest of victories it still is a victory.

What sort of resources did you have?

 

[Sisiutil]

Although Roosevelt isn't perhaps the best leader you could have just bottled up and gone for a cultural victory. If you've missed the early religions (not unlikely) then it may be a bit of a chore to chase the later ones but it's usually do-able and although it might not be the prettiest of victories it still is a victory.

What sort of resources did you have?

Roosevelt wouldn't be too bad for it--he's Industrious, so that helps for wonder-building; it's a little harder to leverage Organized for a cultural win, though. It's a good point; when I find myself in an isolated start, I immediately consider a cultural victory.

 

[Kong99]

I had decent resources and start location, but for some reason my early development dragged a bit. I did miss the early religions and I suppose was fortunate to have Judaism spread from Elisabeth. I felt like I was behind once I realized I was isolated... not sure what I did wrong on this one. Blast this game is complex!!


Here is my start file:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/103822/Kevin_BC-4000.Civ4SavedGame

 

[Galileo44]

I would have tried to expand and get many cottage heavy cities going to allow you to research faster than the trading groups of AIs. On Prince they are not that great and you can just ignore dead-end military techs forever (Archery, Horseback Riding).

 

[Sisiutil]

In a recent game, I was on a continent with Alexander, no one else within reach of early ships. In a series of early wars, I got several techs out of him for peace. It would have required Galleys, but you may have been able to do this with Elizabeth.

 

[futurehermit]

Cultural victory ftw!!!

 

[Quagga]

The only advantage of this position is that the AI can't concentrate on building and research like the isolated human can. The human knows there are no enemies to worry about.

I've found that beelining for Optics and then Astronomy can give quite an edge, first in trading, then in being able to send troops afar. Of course, you'll want to circumnavigate first to get the bonus movement. Well, maybe this all applies more to Archipelago than to a random isolated start.

As far as Cultural Victory goes, I think it would be a challenge. Besides probably not founding an early religion, you won't get any others until you can establish trade routes to other civs. Getting multiple religions into your cities is going to be delayed. Thus, building Cathedrals and such will also be delayed, with adverse affect on culture growth. I suppose it's doable, but probably much harder than on Pangea.

I'm usually not in the mood for an isolated start. Sometimes, yes, I give it another try. Usually, I start over once I see the position.

 

[Winston Hughes]

As well as allowing you to delay military buildup until the early middle game, isolated starts also give you more flexibility in the building of your first cities. There's no land rush, so you can safely build up your capital and first couple of cities before grabbing less important spots. Early production is less important too, so you can delay some of those high-hammer cities and get the tech-engines going first.

There are obviously many different approaches you could employ to compensate for the tech-trading advantage of the other civs, but I think it boils down to one main choice: either you beeline like a madman for Optics (and then Alphabet), or you concentrate almost exclusively on building up your research economy (and wait for the AI to come to you).

For the former approach (which would be suicidally pointless except in an isolated start) the main problem will be the huge cost of the techs on the botton path of the tech-tree. The trick, imo, is to choose and develop your earliest cities wisely to best make use of the techs needed for the beeline to Optics.

For example, although that cow and wheat site will eventually become a better city, the site with fish and crabs doesn't need Agriculture or AH to grow, so you can stay on the path to optics (and don't forget that coasts are the most profitable unimproved terrain). Military advantages can be ignored, so no barracks, don't bother connecting that copper (until you build the colossus...), and don't even think about researching Hunting, Archery or HR.

In total, you're going to have to come up with 2800 beakers (standard settings/vanilla; minus starting techs) to get Optics, excluding any extras you pick up along the way.

However, if you can get yourself a Great Engineer, then he can give you Machinery for free (which is 700 beakers of the total). Hence, going for Metal Casting and a forge asap is one approach. Alternatively, if the conditions are right (high-production city, industrious trait and/or nearby stone) you could go for The Pyramids early, and leave the GE points accumulating while you pick up some other useful techs.

If you can get to Optics fast enough you may even meet the other continents before they've got to Alphabet (I've pulled this off on monarch), in which case you can trade your beeline techs to fill in the gaps in your tech tree, and marvel at how far ahead of the AI you've managed to get. Even if they have started to trade, your expensive bottom-path techs will be valuable enough to get you into the tech-race, if you trade them judiciously.

Most importantly: bite the bullet and ignore a whole load of cheap early techs, right into the early middle game. You can pick these up later. If they don't fit with the beeline, then they should be ignored unless there's some major advantage to be gained. To illustrate the point: for the 450 beakers needed for Metal Casting, you could pick up Agriculture, AH, Hunting, Archery, Mysticism, Meditation and Priesthood. In any other situation, you'd be mad to forgo all of those techs for the sake of getting MC early, but in this case it might be the smartest move to leave them all for later.

Sorry for the essay. Unlike Quagga, I adore isolated starts. They're perfect for those of us who are builders at heart, since the key to success is careful development of the homeland rather than military prowess.

 

[futurehermit]

What do you mean you can't get multiple religions into your cities? What about using a GS to lightbulb philosophy? Or a GP to lightbulb christianity and/or divine right? What about oracle --> COL?

I would suggest going oracle --> COL for your first. Then use your subsequent GP from the oracle to lightbulb theology for your second. Then use a GS to lightbulb philosophy for your third.

With no trading partners you're going to have a hard time teching anyways and with no enemies to worry about you can build in peace.

An isolated start is a cultural victory dream imo.

 

[cabert]

Roosevelt wouldn't be too bad for it--he's Industrious, so that helps for wonder-building; it's a little harder to leverage Organized for a cultural win, though. It's a good point; when I find myself in an isolated start, I immediately consider a cultural victory.

organized allows you to run caste system (for more artists) and OrgRel (for late religions missionaries) to half price, which is good enough to allow you to run (almost) 100% culture.
That + half priced courthouses for an early landgrab is not to be spitted on.
It's still not as good as spiritual, but it's better than charismatic.

 

[Quagga]

What do you mean you can't get multiple religions into your cities? What about using a GS to lightbulb philosophy? Or a GP to lightbulb christianity and/or divine right? What about oracle --> COL?

OK, makes sense. I shoudn't have commented about Cultural Victory, since I don't try it very often and haven't been successful. My instinct in this situation is to maximize commerce and would not have steered toward Philosophy, Theology or Divine Right.

I'm going to try your approach soon. (When I get done playing with the early vassals idea outlined in a different thread.)

 

[futurehermit]

Yeah, cultural victory requires a different mindset. You still have to maximize commerce, but hey, what's wrong with getting religions + shrines for increased commerce as well?

There are some good threads on cultural victory on these forums. Check out the deity-cultural one (sorry don't have a link handy).