Students and Professors of UC Irvine want to ban the US Flag

[Commodore]

Okay, I didn't see a thread for this on the front page so I'm going to assume nobody has posted about this yet. Basically, the student government of UC Irvine voted to ban the flying of all flags, including the US flag in the lobby of the student government building in order to promote "cultural inclusivity". The vote by the student government was immediately overturned by the university administration and now the state of California is going to vote on a bill that will prohibit any publicly-funded university to ban the flying of the US flag.

The introduction of this bill in the state legislature has led to a petition being passed around to allow the banning of the US flag on college campuses if the university wishes it. Some UC Irvine professors have been reported as signing the petition stating the US flag symbolizes racism, colonialism, imperialism, and intimidation. Personally, I think this viewpoint is outrageous and extremely offensive. I also find it extremely hypocritical of university professors to claim the US government are vile racists and bigots, yet still accept a paycheck from them. If I had my way, every student identified as supporting this movement would be immediately expelled from campus and every professor that signed the petition would have their employment terminated.

This article gives a pretty good synopsis of the situation.

 

[illram]

IMHO that flag stands for the idea that people and organizations of people, such as a college campus or corporate headquarters, should be free to not fly it if they so choose. And other people should be able to criticize that position, etc.

The level of vitriol I saw on this on FB recently was astonishing.

 

[Arwon]

so a law banning bans hey

 

[Commodore]

IMHO that flag stands for the idea that people and organizations of people, such as a college campus or corporate headquarters, should be free to not fly it if they so choose. And other people should be able to criticize that position, etc.

The level of vitriol I saw on this on FB recently was astonishing.

That's fine for a private university, but a university that receives its funding from the government behind the flag they wish to ban loses a little bit of its freedom of choice in such matters.

So I say any publicly-funded university that attempts to ban the US flag from any part of its campus should immediately have all of its public funding pulled and have its accreditation revoked. If the attempted ban only comes from a small portion of the university's population, then those individuals should be expelled and denied access to any other publicly-funded universities as well as any federally-backed student loans (which is pretty much all of them nowadays).

 

[Arwon]

Some UC Irvine professors have been reported as signing the petition stating the US flag symbolizes racism, colonialism, imperialism, and intimidation. Personally, I think this viewpoint is outrageous and extremely offensive. I also find it extremely hypocritical of university professors to claim the US government are vile racists and bigots, yet still accept a paycheck from them. If I had my way, every student identified as supporting this movement would be immediately expelled from campus and every professor that signed the petition would have their employment terminated.

Well, the US flag totally has been used to all four of those ends at some point. You can't really claim exclusive abillity to determine what a symbolic piece of cloth means any more than these students can. Getting this upset that symbolism turns out to be personal and diverse seems a little wrong-headed.

 

[Arwon]

I think a solution would be to allow the US flag to fly but then to also burn it on regular occasions, thus satisfying everyone's personal symbolic preferences.

 

[Commodore]

Well, the US flag totally has been used to all four of those ends at some point. You can't really claim exclusive abillity to determine what a symbolic piece of cloth means any more than these students can. Getting this upset that symbolism turns out to be personal and diverse seems a little wrong-headed.

What I am upset about is the fact that these hypocrites have no problem taking money from the very same government they decry as vile racists and imperialists. If that's how they really feel, then those professors should immediately resign their positions and pay back all the money they received while working for a government-funded institution. The students should also stop applying for student loans that are guaranteed by that very same racist and imperialist government and put themselves through college.

It's hard for me to back any cause that has such a massive air of hypocrisy surrounding it. Especially when said cause insults and spits on something I happen to take very seriously.

 

[Arwon]

Yes I, too, think it's hypocritical to enjoy any aspect of the state under which one lives while also disagreeing with other aspects of that state's behaviour. It just burns me so.

 

[JollyRoger]

But you do back the hypocrites banning bans?

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Okay, I didn't see a thread for this on the front page so I'm going to assume nobody has posted about this yet. Basically, the student government of UC Irvine voted to ban the flying of all flags, including the US flag in the lobby of the student government building in order to promote "cultural inclusivity". The vote by the student government was immediately overturned by the university administration and now the state of California is going to vote on a bill that will prohibit any publicly-funded university to ban the flying of the US flag.

The introduction of this bill in the state legislature has led to a petition being passed around to allow the banning of the US flag on college campuses if the university wishes it. Some UC Irvine professors have been reported as signing the petition stating the US flag symbolizes racism, colonialism, imperialism, and intimidation. Personally, I think this viewpoint is outrageous and extremely offensive. I also find it extremely hypocritical of university professors to claim the US government are vile racists and bigots, yet still accept a paycheck from them. If I had my way, every student identified as supporting this movement would be immediately expelled from campus and every professor that signed the petition would have their employment terminated.

This article gives a pretty good synopsis of the situation.

Well, yeah, it does...but as you noted if one is attending a state university one is not really in a position to criticize.

 

[Commodore]

But you do back the hypocrites banning bans?

For what it's worth, I do think the proposed amendment to the California State Constitution is a little too much. I say just cut off the money to those individuals and organizations supporting such bans.

Yes I, too, think it's hypocritical to enjoy any aspect of the state under which one lives while also disagreeing with other aspects of that state's behaviour. It just burns me so.

The point is they obviously don't take their moral objections to the government and the flag very seriously if they are still willing to work for and be educated by those they label as racists, imperialists, and colonialists. If you morally objected to living under ISIS's regime, would you let them educate you? Would you accept a job that puts you directly on their payroll?

 

[Tee Kay]

If you morally objected to living under ISIS's regime, would you let them educate you? Would you accept a job that puts you directly on their payroll?

Um. Yes?

I mean what other choice do I have, aside from fleeing (and possibly end up in a worse place).

Even if I don't directly work for the ISIS administration my taxes still go towards sustaining it.

This isn't a fantasy world where people can just up and leave. Especially if you are citizen of a "Third World" locale.

 

[illram]

So patriotism should be a relevant criteria in determining eligibility for receipt of student loans and government funding of education?

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Um. Yes?

I mean what other choice do I have, aside from fleeing (and possibly end up in a worse place).

Even if I don't directly work for the ISIS administration my taxes still go towards sustaining it.

This isn't a fantasy world where people can just up and leave. Especially if you are citizen of a "Third World" locale.

This is the same perspective that led to the college kids who protested the war in Viet Nam growing into the profiteers who cheered on GWBush. You either have a moral stand or you don't. Consequences test that. If these students and staff really think there is something that needs to be accomplished let them stake their futures on it, otherwise they should just drop the pretense.

 

[Sommerswerd]

Um. Yes?

I mean what other choice do I have, aside from fleeing (and possibly end up in a worse place).

Even if I don't directly work for the ISIS administration my taxes still go towards sustaining it.

This isn't a fantasy world where people can just up and leave. Especially if you are citizen of a "Third World" locale.

I have to agree... Extending the hyperbole a little further I would say that a slave might have despised the master, but he'd be a d@mn fool to refuse the food and shelter that the master provided.

And would that same slave be a little hypocritical and daresay ungrateful to, after eating the master's food and living in the shelter master provided and wearing the clothes the master bought for years, to then one day rise up and murder the master and run off? Sure, its a little ungrateful I guess, but I don't think we can be mad at him for it right? I mean he strongly disapproved of what the master was doing.

I know University Profs are not slaves (which is why I acknowledged it is hyperbole) but Universities are not ISIS either... the principle, however is the same... accepting patronage/support/gifts/employment does not automatically require (or even imply) eternal fealty.

The Profs have a contract (and I assume tenure). They owe their teaching services and whatever else the contract calls for in exchange for their wages, nothing more. Not loyalty, not fealty, not silence or approval. One of the purposes of tenure is to foster independent and sometimes controversial thought among the faculty.

 

[Tee Kay]

This is the same perspective that led to the college kids who protested the war in Viet Nam growing into the profiteers who cheered on GWBush.

People change. What of it?

You either have a moral stand or you don't. Consequences test that.

Maybe those people staked so much on their moral stand that they found it futile and disillusioning and decided to join the winning side instead.

If these students and staff really think there is something that needs to be accomplished let them stake their futures on it, otherwise they should just drop the pretense.

Is this a "better die on your feet" thing?

There's nothing glorious about staking people's futures on a cause unless it's going to achieve something. A few hundred academics losing their careers and livelihood is not going to shake the system one bit. They'd actually do better speaking out against the system from their (relative to the masses) high positions within it.

 

[JollyRoger]

At least fly one that reflects the reality of the interests represented by Congress:

 

[Arwon]

For what it's worth, I do think the proposed amendment to the California State Constitution is a little too much. I say just cut off the money to those individuals and organizations supporting such bans.



The point is they obviously don't take their moral objections to the government and the flag very seriously if they are still willing to work for and be educated by those they label as racists, imperialists, and colonialists. If you morally objected to living under ISIS's regime, would you let them educate you? Would you accept a job that puts you directly on their payroll?

Have you ever tried to actually escape the apparatus of a modern state completely?

Ironically, despite the funding source, an independent public institution like a university, with tenure, with its own charter and physical space, is one of the places that is relatively from the modern state. It's not actually the silliest approach, conceptually, to want to reduce the state's intrusions into a nominally autonomous space still further.

 

[warpus]

Let me double check that I'm right here.. This is IN America right? Not in Canada or something? Or Japan? or Turkey?

If anyone in America is offended by the American flag gloriously flying in the wind in America, then maybe they should leave the country and adopt a new one.

 

[Arwon]

Such freedom