Subdue animals and Light Elda... sorry, Ljosalfar:)

[Rainbowsand]

"Subdue" is a term that generally means "to break someone's will into submission" for later labor/decadency use, with "slavery" as a result, which gets confirmed by in-game application of that effect through combat. While certain entry from "Animal Husbandry" by some "elven mystic Selena Yera" clarifies Light El... well, you know my meaning, on the slavery towards the animals, which is resentment. So all these "cages" buildings and the "subjugate" promotion are contradictory to Ljosalfar declared ethics (as i remember, in LotR light elves weren't eating meat, sustaining on life magic-powered agriculture). Perhaps a nation trait like "animal empathy" which shall set Light El... heck, at peace with animals from start of game and give some recon units a chance to acquire a single animal as a companion instead of hawk?

 

[Aline]

The elfs however appernetly have some understanding of "survival of the fitest", one of their messages when killed is something like "nature sure is harsh..." (or something like that), whenever animals form a pack they decide on a leader by fighting in some way or another, some animals might just show of how strong they are by some means, others acctualy fight, sometimes to the death.
This is a neutral process, it ensures, that the leader is strong enough to lead the pack properly.
If someone, elf or not uses the this to tame an animal and make it obay him it is once again a neutral and natural process.

 

[Rainbowsand]

Aw... So, you picture this as some sort of duel, after which an animal acknowledges superiority of hunter and then follows him willingfully as a vassal? A viable view... which makes putting that animal in cage treachery in addition to being cruel. Sure, this "process" is neutral - as long as animal is not being subdued by torture, imprisonment, mockery and food deprivation My knowledge on how an elven rangers acquire their animal companions is scarce, i must admit... and does not includes that sort of challenge fight. Someone could point me to some novels on this matter?

 

[Aline]

Well i guess putting them into a cage realy is not very elf like. ^^

 

[Iskar Jarak]

who says that they put them in a cage, perhaps they settle them in a city in some other non-cruel way.

 

[Valkrionn]

Personally, I see the Doviello as more "Survival of the Fittest", not the Ljos. I don't see them as hippie, Save the Animals!, type people (Aside from the ones that ride the deer; They're rather more... Militant.. than the typical hippie though), but I honestly see them as more revering the trees than the animals.

 

[Rainbowsand]

Personally, I see the Doviello as more "Survival of the Fittest", not the Ljos. I don't see them as hippie, Save the Animals!, type people (Aside from the ones that ride the deer; They're rather more... Militant.. than the typical hippie though), but I honestly see them as more revering the trees than the animals.

Omnipresent hamster
Guess i have to go into the more detailed explanation...
The traditional (for many cultures) human approach for animals is slaughter and debilitating slavery to ease exploiting them as workforce and food. Elves, on the other side, with their heightened emphatic -> telepatic abilities (which humans also could widely develop if not for early childhood conditioning) can fully perceive animals for what they are and understand them and their thoughts and needs. In given conditions of aftermath of ice age when elves were likely hunting animals to save themselves from starvation now they are returning to the plant-composed diet, as any extensive chi users as elves without any doubt are do find it much easier to control an inner intoxication levels and purity of chi by not consuming flesh. Which removes main reason for elves-animals antagonism. Adding here a complete understanding between them (also stag-riding "fyrdwells"), and elven goal to restore telepathic unity within their forests as in the times of alive Sucellus, we are coming to conclusion that elves are befriending and allying with animals who live nearby, and maintain neutrality with those outside as being capable to negotiate territorial disputes and explain to yet unknowing of them (and bereft of their ancestral memory about elves) beasts why it is wise to not consider elf as food - with proper application of their supreme dodging combat skills, and their considerable spiritual presence.

"Although capable archers, they aren't hunters" - a string from fyrdwell unit's description


The point of all this rambling is to clarify that "ljosalfar" need not to subdue animals in any way because their culture from early times includes befriending animals for mutual care and benefits and light elf shall not hunt animals unless he's threatened by starvation - which, considering his enhanced metabolism shall require extreme conditions like Ice Age. The gameplay proposals to reflect this were given higher. Whew.

 

[Rainbowsand]

who says that they put them in a cage, perhaps they settle them in a city in some other non-cruel way.

Good point. What for though?
"A dancing bear" - for laughter upon his clumsiness and obedience, "Wolf cage" - for jabbing there sticks and mocking beast's helpless fury, "Gorilla cage" - for teasing it and mocking as an ugly human likeness for sense of superiority - a cultural value of all these installations for humans is obviously clear.
But as light elves have not such needs, which use shall they receive from beasties kindly captured and gently goaded to their village a.k.a. homestead?
Most obvious use - in combat - is handled on the mutual agreement terms: fyrdwell and summon tiger (which imo is quite different from summon demon as does not include interplanar transportation and forced binding to the caller's will - as i assume tigers love to hunt and kill, and it is best to do together with higher, likeable beings for the sake of joy and fun). So what remains i wonder?..

 

[Rainbowsand]

On hippies: their mainly focus was historically set upon can_na:bis, shrooms and L_C, which had severely reduced initiates' will to fight and combat skills; on other hand, i haven't read or heard about classic elves using chemical enhancers. Those elves that shown in Overlord are not accounted as a sarcastic maleficium parody, diminishing view from evil side

 

[Deon]

Orbis does that. Other mods not. Because it's must a mechanic which works and it doesn't exclude a specific race. It's quite easy to mod out cages for elves or put them at peace with animals as Orbis does.

However, if they have hunters, it means that they still eat meat and hunt animals. And I don't see them as hippies, they just have a connection to trees (like those blue beasts in Avatar movie).

 

[Valkrionn]

Orbis does that. Other mods not. Because it's must a mechanic which works and it doesn't exclude a specific race. It's quite easy to mod out cages for elves or put them at peace with animals as Orbis does.

However, if they have hunters, it means that they still eat meat and hunt animals. And I don't see them as hippies, they just have a connection to trees (like those blue beasts in Avatar movie).

Which is rather what I said; I see them as worshipping the forest, not any individual animals.

Actually, a good way to look at it might be the whole 'Noble Indian' ideal; Worship Erebus as a whole as a magnificent work of their god, don't take more than is necessary, and thank any slaughtered animal for the meal they provide.

It's also rather Wiccan...

 

[Rainbowsand]

However, if they have hunters, it means that they still eat meat and hunt animals.

A fine example of reversed logic:if game race have a generic unit then it's properties are back-translated to the elven race as a whole
However my exact speculation was that elves were eating meat and clod themselves in skins in order to survive, but as environment hostility had lessened and elven culture progressed, they have abandoned it out of empathy with animals and for the sake of self-perfection - if FfH elves are immortal or at least long-living.

And I don't see them as hippies, they just have a connection to trees (like those blue beasts in Avatar movie).

Ah, Avatar... unbearable-to-watch attempt of those - Germans? - to emulate something they don't understand. I'm certain that for certain people it was a cause of such an outrage as it was with the ill-conceived LotR trilogy. Much better example for elves-trees connection is found in the WoW.

It's quite easy to mod out cages for elves or put them at peace with animals as Orbis does.

It would be pleasant to see it(if it is not already so; i haven't yet played ljosalfar in orbis)

 

[Rainbowsand]

Which is rather what I said; I see them as worshipping the forest, not any individual animals.

To worship... Do you mean some sort of rituals? I rather picture their unity as something as natural as sight or breathing

It's also rather Wiccan...

As my knowledge on wiccan tradition is negligible, a little explanation should do good.

Actually, a good way to look at it might be the whole 'Noble Indian' ideal;

I found more similarities between the elves and celestial chinese than between the elves and indians; besides, indians as separate race already are embedded in some of the modmodmods. Although an ortodoxal "sidhe" may be not like them at all...

Worship Erebus as a whole as a magnificent work of their god, don't take more than is necessary, and thank any slaughtered animal for the meal they provide.

The first and third part are seem to me to be a bit naive for elder race, and second is a cornerstone in the concepts of balance and the good, not only elven one.

 

[KillerClowns]

Might I advise reading the Disciple of Leaves' pedia? "Nature does not favor weakness, and so our task is not to protect the helpless. It does not judge one life more worthy than the next -- let all struggle, and if the winner is a plant, a wolf -- or an elf or a human, so be it. And nature does not prefer life over death. Every creature gets both once, and will in turn deliver each as much as it is able."

 

[Valkrionn]

To worship... Do you mean some sort of rituals? I rather picture their unity as something as natural as sight or breathing

That's actually what I meant, worship was a poor word choice. Better would be "I see them as considering the Forest as a whole is sacred, rather than refusing to harm any individual animal or plant."

As my knowledge on wiccan tradition is negligible, a little explanation should do good.

From the little I've read (Some, not enough, not on this subject), they give thanks to the animal which provides the meal, and pray for it to have a safe crossing to the Summer Lands; Essentially a heaven.

I found more similarities between the elves and celestial chinese than between the elves and indians; besides, indians as separate race already are embedded in some of the modmodmods. Although an ortodoxal "sidhe" may be not like them at all...

Honestly, I don't see elves as Chinese at all.

The first and third part are seem to me to be a bit naive for elder race, and second is a cornerstone in the concepts of balance and the good, not only elven one.

I don't see how those would be 'naive', and indeed, are cornerstones of several of our own religions.

Given the fact that they worship the god of Nature, I feel they would revere nature itself.

 

[thomas.berubeg]

The first and third part are seem to me to be a bit naive for elder race, and second is a cornerstone in the concepts of balance and the good, not only elven one.

That, and elves are not the elder race in FFH. younger than mankind, they were born from humans who lived in close proximity to Succuleus.

 

[Rainbowsand]

That, and elves are not the elder race in FFH. younger than mankind, they were born from humans who lived in close proximity to Succuleus.

Oh, good! then Jade Empire analogy truly more fitting!

 

[thomas.berubeg]

Except, like has been said before, things in erebus should not be compared to things in other peices of literature. No "jade empire" analogy, no Conan analogy, etc...

 

[Valkrionn]

Hehe. I actually disagree about that one.

Analogies are fine; Saying it's the same is not.

You can say that it's similar to something somewhere else, and even get ideas for how to tweak it from that source; Saying they're the same is a different matter altogether.

 

[Rainbowsand]

That's actually what I meant, worship was a poor word choice. Better would be "I see them as considering the Forest as a whole is sacred, rather than refusing to harm any individual animal or plant."

Not much better As if in "I do consider my mother to be beloved by me"
Consideration is verbalized thought; what did i meant that they feel it... like, well, a harmonics of Force. Not proper analogy but too lazy now to think of better.
A practic forest-wide enchantment.

Honestly, I don't see elves as Chinese at all.

When i first seen the "House of flying daggers" i felt: "Now that's an elves!"
So as i told the "elves" i am speaking may not be "sidhe" at all.