Subdued Animals in C2C discussions

[GT Ranma]

There are a number of graphics for carnivore resources, but how would we use them in game? They would not work well as resources but may work as improvements or features which we implement as lairs I suppose.

*rubs chin* I was more thinking of the Romans and Persians. They used Lions in the Colosseum as well as many other cultures based their ancient myths around various large cats.

If we are moving to put more 'mythical' stuff in the game, I was thinking of Lion Riders XD (I mean, I would rather ride a lion then a Deer into battle.)

*shrug* I was just trying to figure out a way that resources could still evolve through the future ages. Lions are a protected species in most countries (or at least rare) so a spot of land with them on it would most likely be 'protected' and not able to be turned into farmlands and what not. These 'Lair' tiles might need special improvements and buildings to advance them.

Then just creating a Lion Cage wouldn't give you lions, you'd need to find a lair, put the improvement on it, then build a Lion Tamer, (which gives +1 happiness with Colosseum), ect, ect.

I am really just brainstorming here, but I think if you guys broke the resources down into structured categories, it might be easier to plan upgrades. For example:

Mount Creatures:
Elephants, Horses, Mules (Donkey?), Zebra, Deer, Ox (Buffalo?), Mammoth, (Unicorn, Pegasus, Dire Lions, ect).

It could be easier to see what still needs what. Each one could have it's specific stable, you could even go so far as needing to 'domesticate' them rather then just put the herd in a city.

It really all depends on how much detail you want to go into and if you are going to include mythical creatures or let someone else worry about them?

P.S. I am not sure if you can create a unique category for creatures in game, like resources, but if you could it might be easier to apply specific bonuses from specific types of creatures to buildings easier.
- For example, having a Domesticated Ox herd could give a +1 somewhere because now people don't have to do things by hand, they can use the ox. And, if you have it as a category, now all the buildings that need a 'labor or mount' type creature in the city gets a bonus. No more plowing by hand, no more pushing carts around, you have your domesticated pack animals to do it.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Two things stop us adding units to C2C. One is lack of graphics and the other is we are trying to keep it fairly real which means we have myths but no dragon riders. There is evidence for deer riders and rhino "tanks" it is just not good evidence and once we have them we need to figure out how they may have evolved. Bear riders should not really be in at all. They should be put in the Fantasy folder along with the rabbit that can kill a squad of knights and the mermaids. Same goes for Bison Riders which are also in game.

Yes we could use some special improvements or buildings - Lion Park for the modern eras. The Elephant resource goes from a hunting camp to a safari I think or it should.

 

[ls612]

Two things stop us adding units to C2C. One is lack of graphics and the other is we are trying to keep it fairly real which means we have myths but no dragon riders. There is evidence for deer riders and rhino "tanks" it is just not good evidence and once we have them we need to figure out how they may have evolved. Bear riders should not really be in at all. They should be put in the Fantasy folder along with the rabbit that can kill a squad of knights and the mermaids. Same goes for Bison Riders which are also in game.

Yes we could use some special improvements or buildings - Lion Park for the modern eras. The Elephant resource goes from a hunting camp to a safari I think or it should.

I'm fine with Bear and Bison Riders being in-game as alt-timelines. The main issue is graphics. The Bear Rider doesn't even have an animation.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I thought all the alternative 'riders' were part of the alternative timeline modules already?

 

[GT Ranma]

Well, what I really want is more content in post "The map is completely full of cities, so there are no more animals spawning" part of the game. I don't know, maybe get some sharks with freaken lasers on their head?

I feel like once that happens the subdued animals become obsolete and very static.

That was why I was thinking about rare animals and extinction, because once you hit the modern era you (IRL) do not have spots of Barley, Grapes, ect, they are so prevalent that if there is a farm it IS growing one of those things. I like the idea of the great farmer, but it makes me wonder if the focus should move from what resources you have in what tile to a more what resources does the nation have?

And once you get to other planets, will all the resources on earth be completely ignored in the rush for the new ones you have off planet? (BTW, how close are you guys to having that in?)

I just really would like the resources to be a little less static, thus in the resources thread I talked about copper, and the fact that in the stone age they did not mine it they just picked it up. I don't know if you could even do it, but I would love it (I know people will hate the idea) if resources themselves could evolve (Maybe even some from the hunter/gather age to become obsolete). The animals people want in their city in 1 BC is completely different from the animals a nation wants to have access to in the 22nd century.

You know what I mean? I'm not sure if I am getting my idea across correctly.

 

[strategyonly]

No offense, but isnt that getting "just" a little to realistic and not for gameplaying? Or i might not have read it correct either . . .

 

[GT Ranma]

Hmm, how to articulate what I am thinking... No offense taken of course, I am just a fan, not part of the team, so anything I say can be ignored completely if you guys like. It is not up to me in any way.

What I am trying to say, in part and at it's core, is that once you get into the modern era and beyond, this awesome aspect of the game is completely lost. The only free roaming animals at that point are ocean creatures. I love what DH has been doing it so far and would like to see it stay dynamic and useful in the modern eras (and future). So I am just giving my two cents towards ways that that could be achieved, and all just brainstorming of course. I don't know where he is going with the module, so my ideas could be helpful or completely useless, I just hope it helps ^^

 

[Thunderbrd]

Hmm, how to articulate what I am thinking... No offense taken of course, I am just a fan, not part of the team, so anything I say can be ignored completely if you guys like. It is not up to me in any way.

What I am trying to say, in part and at it's core, is that once you get into the modern era and beyond, this awesome aspect of the game is completely lost. The only free roaming animals at that point are ocean creatures. I love what DH has been doing it so far and would like to see it stay dynamic and useful in the modern eras (and future). So I am just giving my two cents towards ways that that could be achieved, and all just brainstorming of course. I don't know where he is going with the module, so my ideas could be helpful or completely useless, I just hope it helps ^^

I do agree that at some point we should start allowing some animal spawns inside borders still (where there is no improvement perhaps). There's SOME work already towards that but I'd like to mostly wait on such a development for a more fully developed Animal AI system. One of those things 'on the list'.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

The problem with all the mods that spawn barbarian units inside cultural borders is The Great Wall immediately expels them! Which means that the player with that wonder is immune to all those wonderful mods - slave and serf revolts just to name two.

 

[GT Ranma]

Any chance you could make a faction that is not a player and not a barbarian as well?

If you could, then you could put all the 'non aggressive' animals in it. Horses attacking and killing my settlers is kinda ... not kosher. And of course could bypass the Great Wall issue.

 

[Thunderbrd]

That's a good point DH! I'll try to keep in mind that should be addressed at the point I start looking into that project.

@GT: We've discussed that, perhaps even splitting out Neanders from regular Barbs too. I don't think we'll split animals up because after some discussion it seemed like it'd be a less perfect answer. But when I get to addressing this, I'll work up some unique animal AIs that can help our animals to behave a bit more like they should based on their RL equivalents.

 

[Faustmouse]

Maybe you should give some animals like Pidgeons a "can only defent" tag/promotion. My very wounded Warrior and several Settlers was already eaten by very agressiv pidgeons...

 

[JosEPh_II]

Maybe you should give some animals like Pidgeons a "can only defent" tag/promotion. My very wounded Warrior and several Settlers was already eaten by very agressiv pidgeons...

This Has been discussed before....several times.

JosEPh

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

@GT Ranma, Yes I do understand what you mean.

For example I have often thought of having the deer resource improvements

- start with a scavenging camp which upgrades to
- a hunting camp which then upgrades to
- a "royal" hunting preserve in the middle ages which is used to feed all your armies and navies in times of war but provides less local food and resources. That upgrades to
- a deer park in the industrial era which provides some local food and tourism then some research...
- nature/safari park in the modern and later eras.​

 

[GT Ranma]

Hmm, would you like some help coming up with ideas for upgrades and what not? I'm not sure exactly where you would like to head, but I'd be happy to help out. (I haven't coded for Civ in years, so not sure I'd be to much help in that aspect.)

 

[dusckr87]

Maybe you should give some animals like Pidgeons a "can only defent" tag/promotion. My very wounded Warrior and several Settlers was already eaten by very agressiv pidgeons...

I tend to think of them as South Park pigeons (the cop in one episode tells people that the trouble was just a pigeon).

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Hmm, would you like some help coming up with ideas for upgrades and what not? I'm not sure exactly where you would like to head, but I'd be happy to help out. (I haven't coded for Civ in years, so not sure I'd be to much help in that aspect.)

Ideas are almost always welcome the problem is getting time to implement them. For example my idea for deer resource would take a lot of work and would cause many complaints as the shift from and to , and happened.

 

[GT Ranma]

*nod* I can completely understand that.
I've been looking through your code for the animals and it is quite... extensive. There appears to be 5 or 6 different files you have to edit, just to add in 1 new type of resource.
And that isn't even taking into account the time and brainpower needed to balance out all the new systems per age.

 

[Iceciro]

Question that's sort-of-related to the subdued animals... and I wasn't sure where else to put it...

But when playing with flexible difficulty, does the barbarian/animal ratio stick to your original selection or the new level (say moving from Prince up to Diety)... I haven't seen hardly any barbarians but I'm absolutely buried in animals, which is less cool than you'd think because they're dragging the game to near modern-era speeds in prehistory.

 

[ls612]

Question that's sort-of-related to the subdued animals... and I wasn't sure where else to put it...

But when playing with flexible difficulty, does the barbarian/animal ratio stick to your original selection or the new level (say moving from Prince up to Diety)... I haven't seen hardly any barbarians but I'm absolutely buried in animals, which is less cool than you'd think because they're dragging the game to near modern-era speeds in prehistory.

The Flexible Difficulty adjusts everything when the difficulties switch. However, the Animals take a very low amount of time to process now, so that is probably not your issue. How long are your turns and where is the game in the Prehistoric Era (pre or post Tribalism?)