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Subdued Animals in C2C discussions

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Caveman 2 Cosmos' started by Dancing Hoskuld, Sep 12, 2011.

  1. LeftBower

    LeftBower Chieftain

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    I've mentioned this before, but since it's come up again, I figured I'd throw my 2c in.

    What if they gave their bonus in a one off burst, a la great people? Having the burst at an amount that is relevant early game but scales out by the time we're in the ancient era seems doable.

    Alternatively, let us sacrifice animal units to discover a tech "myth of _____" which speeds up other techs. These techs wouldn't be otherwise researchable. So myth of horses would speed up any horse related techs (animal riding, etc.) whereas myth of whales would speed up fishing/sailing techs. They'd only speed up early game techs, so would become irrelevant, but you wouldn't lose the bonus when you researched a certain tech, you'd just have used it up when you've researched all the relevent techs. This would mean that people with myth of wolves wouldn't avoid learning how to domesticate dogs to keep their +1 :science: in their cities, but would rush it earlier, since they can get it faster. Thusly, people exposed to the forces that encouraged the domestication of dogs are more likely to get it sooner. Additionally trade, etc. would spread the myths, as people hear about animals from far off lands. . .
     
  2. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Deity

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    It is not so obsolete just means you loose the base amount you got from the building in the first place. It looks larger because of all te buildings that take that 1:science: and add a % to it.

    Both alternatives are doable but which would be best?
     
  3. strategyonly

    strategyonly C2C Supreme Commander

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    Can you PLS reduced the spawn rate of the Quoll and the Red Fox, thx. (Just a tad bit not much)
     
  4. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Deity

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    Red Fox yes but not so sure about the quoll, I hardly see them.
     
  5. Yudishtira

    Yudishtira Spiritual/Creative

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    In my game as of 5275BC, the animals that I've killed more than 20 of are:
    Jaguar 40
    Quoll 38
    (Bengal) Tiger 23
    Iguana 22
    Cobra 21

    I guess I've been mainly in the jungle/forest, and it's a Temperate map iirc.
     
  6. DRJ

    DRJ Hedonist

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    I actually like your idea a lot. It would help the civs to develop in the direction the lands surrounding them provides. So while the poles civs would likely have fishing techs like harpooning earlier due to the boosts, the steppe people would most certainly specialise on animal domestication techs and the jungle civs maybe on naturopathy techs.

    [sooo....what about plant myths? For example: if a wanderer enters a certain plant tile for the first time (after he researched a tech that makes it visible maybe that plant would give benefits to research of certain techs as well - it was coming to my mind that there are not really jungle animals rushing plant techs, maybe dart frog rushing poison crafting but oh my, the dart frog is really rarely spawning so the jungle civs could be a bit in a disadvantage here, right?]

    Of course all would have to tech to sedentary lifestyle bottleneck sooner or later but the ways there would depend more on the surroundings and of making good usage of them. i really liked to see subdued animal ->tech rush boni coming :)

    Btw welcome to C2C, leftbower, haven't seen you around here yet!
     
  7. Hydromancerx

    Hydromancerx C2C Modder

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    What if we had "growable" goodie hut that looked like plant resources? Thus there would be incentive to sent Scout (aka recon) units to them since they would get the best outcome. Some outcomes could be ...

    - Myth of X Plant teleported to your city.
    - A new plant resource is planted where the hut was
    - A great farmer is sent to your city.

    Alternatively we could always have an immobile / defense only unit that works like an animal but looks like a plant. These like th subdued animals can be captured or destroyed for food or made into a resource.

    Having them as units means we could specifify what part of the globe that spawn in. Such as Punpkins and Chocolate in the new world with Wheat and Coffee in the old world.
     
  8. DRJ

    DRJ Hedonist

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    I like your idea of plant "animals" that can be "picked" from time to time - it helps the nomadic start to be more diversified as there are of course hunters and gatherers. Maybe the plant "animals" could only be "fought" by civilians like gatherers who would get XP by it of course! (So experienced gatherers would then get more out of a plant "animal" if they kill collect it. Collecting mushrooms for example could be dangerous without having reseached certain techs like herbalism and could still hurt (damage or kill if already damaged the gatherer/worker until fungiculture is researched.... or... collecting "animal" "potatoes" without having researched cooking? Not a good idea -> again, gatherer would receive damage be killed if damaged already... So researching a tech would give a bonus to "fight" the "plantimals"?


    What also would be cool (or hot) would be that the boni the plants (as map boni not as pseudo animals) provide are different in certain parts of the globe so if you would try to plant lets say wheat on muddy terrain near the equator it would have less to no effect on the output of the tile whereas wheat in temperate climate zones would provide a high bonus.
    So tieing the spawning of resources to longitude (+latitude?) and the output of resources to latitude could be very interesting!
     
  9. Hydromancerx

    Hydromancerx C2C Modder

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    @Dancing Hoskuld



    I tested out the yellow flowers from Dune Wars to see if it could make a unit and apparently it works. Which would mean we could use all the same graphics from existing resources to make immobile defense only plant units that spawn in the correct part of the globe and can be "subdued" like animals or make a resource where they are "killed".

    Having animals and plants generate as units rather than on the map when the map is made would possibly solve a lot of problems with there not being enough room for the mineral resources to generate properly.

    Having to "hunt" animals and "gather" plants would make the game even more interesting. Note we would need to make a new "Flora" combat class for them. I say flora since Mushrooms are not Plants, but are Fungi. But Flora covers both Plants and Fungi.

    EDIT: The only problem I see is if we are having recon units be the "Gathering" units then how can they attack them if they are defense only. We may need to develop a new Gathering/Botany/Farmer line of units who specialize in "subduing" plants.

    EDIT2: While the wild versions would be immobile the "subdued" ones that teleport to your city would have to be mobile. Otherwise you could never plant them in any city but the one it teleported to.
     
  10. LeftBower

    LeftBower Chieftain

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    Haven't been here all that long. Thought I'd exhausted the interesting Mods, then I find this gem here.

    Can we make plants "invisible" to everything except the gatherers? Alternatively, we'd need to let any unit gather them pretty reliably OR allow units to not attack them. Otherwise we'd have soldiers avoiding tiles because they hold useful flowers, which seems very silly. Maybe have them "captureable" but require a specialist unit to "gather" them, so they could be planted elsewhere? Think something like the weapons in FFHII. Just ideas here.
     
  11. ls612

    ls612 Deity Moderator

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    Ugh, Subdued Plants? Please, not in C2C.
     
  12. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Deity

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    @Hydro, I have had plants as units for ages in a modmod. The problem is how to use them. having them as a wild unit does not work. Having a mission on a recon unit to "bring specimen home" almost works. It puts a "plant unit" ie worker with the plant in your capital. You can then use it to plant the resource. Problems are

    - cool down can be fixed with plot property to stop the unit just sitting on a resource and trying every turn to get the plant.
    - multiple plants from the same resource
    - infrastructure or buildings to support the practice.

    Your chance of success should be based on your home ecosystem and the plant ecosystem. However if you have a glass house your chance of getting some plants should increase and so on.
     
  13. Hydromancerx

    Hydromancerx C2C Modder

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    @Dancing Hoskuld

    I did not know you already had a modmod in the works. Is it before or after Johnny Smith made the comment about it?

    I don't like getting subdued plants from existing resources. While it may seem funny to "fight" a plant I think it might be the best option. I also like LeftBower's idea that they are invisible to all units except the specific types of units that want to farm them.

    I think the biggest draw of this is the fact we can have flora actually generate in the parts of the worlds where they originally were native to. And in turn have them spread across through replanting much more like real life.

    Also with the Herd/Myth buildings you could have the resource present in your city and trigger city vicinity buildings.

    Also you were saying that it could be moved via worker. Are you saying its like having the unit load into the worker unit like you had the Hawk on the Ranger?

    In short I think having plants be units and work like subdued animals has way more pros than cons. If you can look over the fact that units are attacking a plant I think it works. Especially if the only units that can see them are Worker units.
     
  14. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    Have the units that can carry them have a carrying capacity and define the plants as a specialunittype that can only be loaded/unloaded onto units with that type of carrying capacity - goes along the same lines as the missile loading.

    The question would be how to spawn them properly. It's not funny to 'fight them' if only special units or special unit abilities can see them and they have a 0 combat strength. Considering them as units shouldn't be too problematic in this way.
     
  15. DRJ

    DRJ Hedonist

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    As I pointed out, in certain constellation fighting picking plants flora should result in damage for the picking party (gatherers that collect potatoes without knowledge of cooking leads to food poisoning of the tester) I believe this trial & error which essentially is Herbalism in C2C could be represented by damage the gatherers receive by certain plants before certain techs are researched.

    This would then have a damage for 75-25% for them (rolling keys). Taste some mushrooms after the potatoes and your gatherer is done. ;)

    Or what about this: we could have it the way that a gatherer would need some food or he would die after some turns.
    The life-energy of the gatherers outside your culture borders would be represented in losing like 5% of HP per turn [starving mechanism = terrain damage (which as you all know the gatherer does not suffer from yet)!!! and "healing" by succsessfully "fighting" a plantimal (receiving full heal on win cause "fed") picking a plant he discovers from time to time.

    Not only would the chance be he could "subdue" it and sack it in to carry it home, as was already (much to my satisfaction) brought up in the discussion, but in this regard I would also settle a request, namely to have hunter units also being able to do the same as an game option [no autoteleport of animals]... as well as maybe a "auto-starve 5% per turn" outside cultural borders for hunting units as well.

    (All of this and the) Following might sound heratic to some of you (thus, winkingly, I made up a little poem to smoothe your ruffled feathers, don't read it if you ain't got no humor)
    Spoiler :
    once 'twas the gruntling hour
    for a shallow water dinosaur

    "don't do this - enough of it" he'd had, he said
    and like a bi.tchy tw.at, imperiously: "don't do that!"
    but please take it into consideration - "autostarve 5% outside of own territory" could even be implemented not only for worker or hunter types but for all unit types.

    With the healer available the stacks you send out would, if rested from time to time, will be able to cross lands without starving to dead but lonely hunters would need to find prey from time to time. As they would autoheal upon win, this could work (as for gatherers already explained, normal healing like combat type units still can do it would be impossible for the hunters as well)

    So could the AI handle the non combat unit types proposed autostarve mechanics?

    I can't tell you for sure - we have our experts in that field who maybe would hopefully like to comment it - but the AI does certainly know how to handle terrain damage and what I propose is nothing else but on a broader scale.

    The Ai units would just need to understand when to return home before risking too much and dying.

    Exploration would be much more rewarding but even more dangerously.

    Some cases:

    Lets say a wanderer, a chaser and a gatherer dare to explore the surroundings of their small size 1 settlement
    -- the AI would need to use them a certain way: - losely tied together; one exploring the flanks, the other more defensively also clearing some fog, and finally the non combat unit searching the newly uncovered, now savely exploreable places for plants to pick.

    What could happen now? The hunters find no prey: after 10 turns out of own territory they have would to come home and to be "fed"/healed by own city/culture. A gatherer - even if still full of health, as he just had a fine banana meal - would then also draw back as it only uses to explore tiles that are "save".

    Or the hunters are successful and heal by prey and then allow the gatherer (which they protect like a general - if its in immediate danger) to explore a bit more - the gatherer would be tied to a radius of 10 - 13 tiles around the city at max because always having in mind to return to city in time -- so not to starve to death far away.

    The radius, as you see is widened by the successfullness of the gatherer (and the hunters protecting/encircling him!)

    example:
    Both, hunter and gatherer unsuccessefull until let's say 9 turns away from cultural borders means that returning home (5% damage per turn * 10 turns = 45% damage - returning home with rest of 5% HP) is triggered for both.
    But if Wanderer is successefully nailing a pistachio on turn 10 away, and the Hunters are successfully finding some carcass (passive hunt possible to be implemented!) as well = they both heal fully (although the brickish carcass would usually only heal half maybe^^) and are thuis able to advance explorring further away from city, but would still have to return home in this case after 3 more turns exploring unsuccsessfully 100%-3*5% = 85% Health remaining when hiting the 13 turn tour to safety [although if successefull there they would maybe hit another direction again.

    The strength vs animals for hunters should only indirectly be affected by starvation values imho, I think starvation does lower overall strength but also could highten a sense of all or nothing mentality in a fight-

    So lets say a hunter didnt catch prey and returns home in 1 turn, has 10% food (strengths) left but then he would be attacked by an animal strength 2 cheetah - in reality the hunter would have 0,3/3 but as the starvation would only indirectly influece his fighting strength, he would maybe be at 1,5/3 fighting strength + 1 first strike for "hungry berzerk" or something^^

    The terrain damage aka starvation could also simulate supply lines as long as we dont have them? Food merchants and healers would supply and heal the stacks in the open...

    What do you guys think of this?


    *suggestion for including "carcass" as a new "animal", movement 0, strength 0 only visible for hunting types, can feed/heal and also make sick damage by a certain chance, gives small amounts of xp for early hunting units like wanderers until feeding mechanisms are possibly established?
     
  16. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    Food supplies a unit carries and consumes will probably be seen in C2C but not for some time as its a fairly extensive sort of project and there's already a lot of extensive ones taking place right now.
     
  17. Johnny Canuck

    Johnny Canuck Warlord

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    A couple of questions about subdued animals:

    1. For the Enclosures, why do some require Carnival or Zoo, while others can be built with just a Governor's Menagerie?

    2. What is the logic behind which animals can build the Master Hunter? For example, the Cave Lion and Lion Pack can, but the Lion cannot. Similarly, the Polar Bear, the Moon Bear, the Grizzly, and the Cave Bear can, but the Bear, the Black Bear, the Sloth Bear, Spectacled Bear, and Sun Bear cannot. IMHO, it would make the most sense to have the Master Hunter buildable by all 'large' animals - i.e. all bears, 'big cats', rhinos, etc. - on the basis that one has demonstrated their hunting abilities by taking down a 'large animal'.
     
  18. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Deity

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    1) Probably the mod I took that bit from. Enclosures and subduing from one mod. Food and :hammers: from another mod with bits added in for what I wanted.

    2) The number 4;) if they provide 4:food: or more when killed in the wild then they can be used to build Master Hunter.
     
  19. strategyonly

    strategyonly C2C Supreme Commander

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    I think this is a FanDAMNtastic idea!!!!!!:goodjob:
     
  20. Actuarian

    Actuarian Warlord

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    Here is a minor issue - you can build a rodent enclosure with a subdued wolverine.
     

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