Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
That's more or less what I was thinking.
Subdued Animals in C2C discussions
- Thread starter Dancing Hoskuld
- Start date
That's more or less what I was thinking.
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
I talked with DH and I think made a blunder. How about this you make the initial units, then we can review it possibly tweak them and collaborate and then there is less work for me and DH and you get some experience modding. Sound good?
Sorry if I was taking away some of your thunder. Just for so long with this project we have had to do everything ourselves. And I forget that people like you can actually take the load of us because you WANT to do stuff like this.
In short please continue work on this.
I guess I was just getting controlling/protective over C2C. 
I see, ok, yeah, I was just going to post the xml here, since I can't push to the SVN, and have you modify it (fix it?) before you push it. This way you'll still have full control over it, but some of the leg work will be done by me.
I will still need you to make the promotions, I can most likely do it, but it seems like something that I really don't want to mess up (looks kind of complex).
Also, we will need a :
TECH_FELINE_DOMESTICATION
and a
BUILDING_BIG_CAT_BREEDER (Or whatever you want to call it, I've been adding BIG_CAT some places, and just CAT others...)
Edit: As I assume the resource needed to make it will be: <BonusType>BONUS_BIG_CAT</BonusType>
Edit Edit: Or do you want to keep it run off of Dog Domestication? (Can you make it so building the Big Cat Breeder gives you the Feline Domestication tech?)
Edit Edit Edit: Well, I got most of the edits for Civ4UnitInfo done, how much do you want me to edit before I send you the info dump? (What other xml files should I edit?)
I will still need you to make the promotions, I can most likely do it, but it seems like something that I really don't want to mess up (looks kind of complex).
Also, we will need a :
TECH_FELINE_DOMESTICATION
and a
BUILDING_BIG_CAT_BREEDER (Or whatever you want to call it, I've been adding BIG_CAT some places, and just CAT others...)
Edit: As I assume the resource needed to make it will be: <BonusType>BONUS_BIG_CAT</BonusType>
Edit Edit: Or do you want to keep it run off of Dog Domestication? (Can you make it so building the Big Cat Breeder gives you the Feline Domestication tech?)
Edit Edit Edit: Well, I got most of the edits for Civ4UnitInfo done, how much do you want me to edit before I send you the info dump? (What other xml files should I edit?)
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
Well you can always make a thread in the modmod section.
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
If you are making this as a mod mod, which is the best way to go with new stuff, even if we don't always do so
; then you need to create a folder to contain your files and the files themselves should only contain items that you are adding or changing. This has the advantage of everything being together. You will need the units and buildings files.
For a first release I would have the buildings match the canine buildings and require the same techs. I would not worry about adding a new tech as I am not sure we would go that way since we would want the Dog Domestication tech to be unavailable to the nation with Cats the other way around. Mostly because it would be a useless tech. So there are issues to discuss there.
; then you need to create a folder to contain your files and the files themselves should only contain items that you are adding or changing. This has the advantage of everything being together. You will need the units and buildings files. For a first release I would have the buildings match the canine buildings and require the same techs. I would not worry about adding a new tech as I am not sure we would go that way since we would want the Dog Domestication tech to be unavailable to the nation with Cats the other way around. Mostly because it would be a useless tech. So there are issues to discuss there.
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
@GT Ranma
1. I already asked Thunderbrd toi make a Feline unit category for you. I will be trying to make an icon/button for it.
2. The promotions can be made by ls612 and I can do it icon/button if need be. However its even better if you can do the code.
3. As for the tech. Hmm Vokarya is usually in charge of techs. I guess it falls to ls612 again. Since I would like it to be a core tech I will go work with him on that in which I can move my Cat Breeder and stuff over.
4. DH and I have done new resources however they are simple to do so you should not have any problem doing them. Dh should be able to help you if you have any problems.
5. The buildings both DH and I have done before. If you have questions let us know. They are not to hard to make.
6. Units you can mirror the dog techs. I would say pick like the Black Panther to use since it appears to be generic enough to be a Domesticated Big Cat. Plus it appears stealthy being black.
1. I already asked Thunderbrd toi make a Feline unit category for you. I will be trying to make an icon/button for it.
2. The promotions can be made by ls612 and I can do it icon/button if need be. However its even better if you can do the code.
3. As for the tech. Hmm Vokarya is usually in charge of techs. I guess it falls to ls612 again. Since I would like it to be a core tech I will go work with him on that in which I can move my Cat Breeder and stuff over.
4. DH and I have done new resources however they are simple to do so you should not have any problem doing them. Dh should be able to help you if you have any problems.
5. The buildings both DH and I have done before. If you have questions let us know. They are not to hard to make.
6. Units you can mirror the dog techs. I would say pick like the Black Panther to use since it appears to be generic enough to be a Domesticated Big Cat. Plus it appears stealthy being black.
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
I am all with having a set of feline units that replace the canine units (and buildings) for one or more nations. With or without further discussion.
However as soon as you start talking changing the tech tree you have to start considering things like:-
However as soon as you start talking changing the tech tree you have to start considering things like:-
should you only be able to study tech Dog/Cat Domestication if you have already built the appropriate wonder? We can easily do that you know.
What are the flow on effects for other techs and buildings. For example: if we go the "way of the bear" then a number of horse related techs become redundant because we don't have that sort of unit. So is that because you don't treat bears that way or because we just need graphics. IE is Cavalry tactics meaningful for bear riders
What are the flow on effects for other techs and buildings. For example: if we go the "way of the bear" then a number of horse related techs become redundant because we don't have that sort of unit. So is that because you don't treat bears that way or because we just need graphics. IE is Cavalry tactics meaningful for bear riders
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
@Dancing Hoskuld
They are not replacing them. They are different units and buildings. Both can co-exist since each are diffrent from each other.
Canines can detect thieves but Felines can hide like thieves but cannot detect them.
As for buildings ...
- Cat Breeder (Req Feline Domestication)
- Big Cat Breeder (Req Feline Domestication AND Megafauna Domestication)
Note the 1st one already exists and thus benefits from the tech even if we don't have a Big Cat Unit or building. Same goes for the Cat Resource what will be moved to Feline Domestication.
They are not replacing them. They are different units and buildings. Both can co-exist since each are diffrent from each other.
Canines can detect thieves but Felines can hide like thieves but cannot detect them.
As for buildings ...
- Cat Breeder (Req Feline Domestication)
- Big Cat Breeder (Req Feline Domestication AND Megafauna Domestication)
Note the 1st one already exists and thus benefits from the tech even if we don't have a Big Cat Unit or building. Same goes for the Cat Resource what will be moved to Feline Domestication.
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
In that case I am not interested in this discussion on cat units any more. I thought we were going to have something new and innovative rather than just more of the same. 
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
@GT Ranma
Ok so I have the icon/buttons made for the tech, unit type and promotions. I sent the requests ou to ls612 and Thunderbrd. That means all that's left for you is the units and buildings.
@Dancing Hoskuld
What do you mean new and innovative? Just sounds like the same old stuff from vanilla where one unit replaces another unit. In this case a big cat unit replacing a dog unit. Having both a big cat unit and dog unit co-existing seems fine and even cool to me. Just because you have a big cat domesticated doesn't mean you would not also want to use a dog unit.
Like I said earlier cats and dogs are different and have different abilities. Just like a Camel and a Horse.
Ok so I have the icon/buttons made for the tech, unit type and promotions. I sent the requests ou to ls612 and Thunderbrd. That means all that's left for you is the units and buildings.
@Dancing Hoskuld
What do you mean new and innovative? Just sounds like the same old stuff from vanilla where one unit replaces another unit. In this case a big cat unit replacing a dog unit. Having both a big cat unit and dog unit co-existing seems fine and even cool to me. Just because you have a big cat domesticated doesn't mean you would not also want to use a dog unit.
Like I said earlier cats and dogs are different and have different abilities. Just like a Camel and a Horse.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
From a strategic concept, Rogues and Thieves and such are fairly limited and expensive... Big Cats could be a good way to infuse the game with more invis units and a whole different type (thus the specialty dogs often gain against criminals wouldn't apply in battles with them).
Megafauna Domestication... Isn't that a late tech, or am I mistaken?
Why I brought it up in this thread, is I thought we were going to do something like, use a Kitty to make Myth of the Cat (or something like that), then when we would get the Dog units, we could instead (or at the same time) decide we want Big Cats instead.
Like, with Elephants and Bison, what not. I was just thinking, it would take the least amount of effort to make it Parallel to the Dog Units.
Are you saying it should be more like, say, the Rinos and Bears? Actual units for Attacking, not defense like the Dogs?
(I also think they should get Detect Invisible (but depending upon what they are used for, I'd be ok with them not having it), they also have heightened smelling and even better eyesight then dogs, especially at night.)
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
@GT Ranma
Megafauna Domestication is in the Prehistoric Era.
Canine Domestication = Column 14
Feline Domestication = Column 15
Megafauna Domestication = Column 17
So yeah they are not too far off from each other.
As for the other I don't see why you cannot have both big cats and dogs. or any other combinations of animals. If you use a combinations of myths and city vicinity buildings then it should work. For instance ...
Big Cat Trainer
Req Tech: Feline Domestication AND Megafauna Domestication
Req Buildings: Myth of the Spotted Cat OR Leopard Hunting Camp
Note that I can make the Leopard Hunting Camp or any other stuff like that. That way you are either getting it from the subdued animal OR from certain resources in the city vicinity.
And yes the Big cats would be a hybrid of attacking and thief units. They could hide like a thief unit but could not see them. They would have like +1 strength from their dog counterpart. Thus being a stronger and more stealthy dog but it cannot detect thieves and don't have the same set of promotions.
If you notice in the other thread I have night vision I, II and III as a promotion for the Feline units. So yes they can see better at night but that doesn't mean they can find hiding units better.
The reason the no detect invisible is so dogs and thieves still have a use. If it could do both then it would make the thieves and canine unless. However in making them stealthy but cannot see stealthy makes them unique but not over powered.
Note that the way to use them would be to sneak in and take out units. Since thief units may be weaker these could take them out. However they themselves would be vulnerable to thieve units and of course could be detected by canine units.
Megafauna Domestication is in the Prehistoric Era.
Canine Domestication = Column 14
Feline Domestication = Column 15
Megafauna Domestication = Column 17
So yeah they are not too far off from each other.
As for the other I don't see why you cannot have both big cats and dogs. or any other combinations of animals. If you use a combinations of myths and city vicinity buildings then it should work. For instance ...
Big Cat Trainer
Req Tech: Feline Domestication AND Megafauna Domestication
Req Buildings: Myth of the Spotted Cat OR Leopard Hunting Camp
Note that I can make the Leopard Hunting Camp or any other stuff like that. That way you are either getting it from the subdued animal OR from certain resources in the city vicinity.
And yes the Big cats would be a hybrid of attacking and thief units. They could hide like a thief unit but could not see them. They would have like +1 strength from their dog counterpart. Thus being a stronger and more stealthy dog but it cannot detect thieves and don't have the same set of promotions.
If you notice in the other thread I have night vision I, II and III as a promotion for the Feline units. So yes they can see better at night but that doesn't mean they can find hiding units better.
The reason the no detect invisible is so dogs and thieves still have a use. If it could do both then it would make the thieves and canine unless. However in making them stealthy but cannot see stealthy makes them unique but not over powered.
Note that the way to use them would be to sneak in and take out units. Since thief units may be weaker these could take them out. However they themselves would be vulnerable to thieve units and of course could be detected by canine units.
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
The hover over is not working. It has been reported as a bug. It gives science. I want all of the study ones to be adjusted for game speed but we don't have that option yet. Although I may be able to fudge it.
@Hydro:
Well, I've done a bit of editing on the cats, but I'm not exactly sure what you have in mind, or what I should change. I was thinking that they were going to be upgraded Dogs, but now that I know that you want them to be something different, I don't really know how to do that.
So, here is what I got atm, I am not sure if it'll be useful to you, or if you'll just start from scratch, as I am sure there is going to be a lot of changes to the class.
I am going out of town for a few days, so I won't be able to work on it. If you don't mind it sitting around gathering dust, I can pick up work once I get back. We could talk through pm as to not clutter up DH's thread. Or you can finish it, I am sure it'll be a lot quicker that way. But which ever is fine with me.
bbia few days
Well, I've done a bit of editing on the cats, but I'm not exactly sure what you have in mind, or what I should change. I was thinking that they were going to be upgraded Dogs, but now that I know that you want them to be something different, I don't really know how to do that.
So, here is what I got atm, I am not sure if it'll be useful to you, or if you'll just start from scratch, as I am sure there is going to be a lot of changes to the class.
I am going out of town for a few days, so I won't be able to work on it. If you don't mind it sitting around gathering dust, I can pick up work once I get back. We could talk through pm as to not clutter up DH's thread. Or you can finish it, I am sure it'll be a lot quicker that way. But which ever is fine with me.
bbia few days
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
Nimek
Emperor
- Joined
- Jul 7, 2010
- Messages
- 1,208
I played latest svn on monarch and game in prehistoric part is too easy because hunters starting from cheasers are too powerfull. They with promotions are immortals and kiling 4-5 animals every turn so I have a lot lot lot of myths and bonuss from kiling animals.
I have one city 4pop on snail every tech takes me 2-4 turns (aprox 35 000BC now) to research.
So this is in my opinion what should be done
1 Tweak hunter line promotions to give +30% vs animals instead of 100%
2 Tweak bonuses from kiling/butcher animal - cut it by half because now you are able to get 8
or 
by one animal.
3 Tweak myths to give +0.5
instead of 1 . Since we have a big spawn rate of animals it is too easy to get all myths and with moddifiers from civics and buildings they are too powerfull. I have 100 points each turn.
BTW Why Tapir can build myth of elephant?
Please consider this points because game is great great great but need some balance.
I can post save game on evening if it si needed
I have one city 4pop on snail every tech takes me 2-4 turns (aprox 35 000BC now) to research.
So this is in my opinion what should be done
1 Tweak hunter line promotions to give +30% vs animals instead of 100%
2 Tweak bonuses from kiling/butcher animal - cut it by half because now you are able to get 8
or by one animal.3 Tweak myths to give +0.5
instead of 1 . Since we have a big spawn rate of animals it is too easy to get all myths and with moddifiers from civics and buildings they are too powerfull. I have 100 points each turn.BTW Why Tapir can build myth of elephant?
Please consider this points because game is great great great but need some balance.
I can post save game on evening if it si needed
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
I asked that too. But DH said ...
The Tapir is the source of some Elephant myths in Chinese mythologyWhich is why it is included.
Though technically Tapirs are more related to Rhinos and Horses. In fact if you took the horn off a Rhino they kinda look like an armored Tapir.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
The Feline Combat class has been added and awaits the rest of the team's efforts.
I somewhat agree that Hunter line units are a bit too deuce ex machina when facing any animal. But the upgrades sure do help when they must face another type of barbarian accidentally!
I somewhat agree that Hunter line units are a bit too deuce ex machina when facing any animal. But the upgrades sure do help when they must face another type of barbarian accidentally!
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