Subdued Animals in C2C discussions

[JJOne]

1 Tweak hunter line promotions to give +30% vs animals instead of 100%
2 Tweak bonuses from kiling/butcher animal - cut it by half because now you are able to get 8 or by one animal.
3 Tweak myths to give +0.5 instead of 1 . Since we have a big spawn rate of animals it is too easy to get all myths and with moddifiers from civics and buildings they are too powerfull. I have 100 points each turn.

As one who had just played up to the beginning of ancient era, I disagree:
1. Lower promotions would mean that grizzlys and mamooths would need to be killed by a horde of hunters, and each costs 2 gold per turn.
2. I also played snail, and only a chosen few animals give so large bonuses? Most give 1-2 food/hammers.
3. I'm ok with that, but the bonus loses quickly it's importance, as you can build the myths only once per animal type, only in capital, and they expire. And they don't seem so big as they are.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I played latest svn on monarch and game in prehistoric part is too easy because hunters starting from cheasers are too powerfull. They with promotions are immortals and kiling 4-5 animals every turn so I have a lot lot lot of myths and bonuss from kiling animals.

I have one city 4pop on snail every tech takes me 2-4 turns (aprox 35 000BC now) to research.

So this is in my opinion what should be done

1 Tweak hunter line promotions to give +30% vs animals instead of 100%
2 Tweak bonuses from kiling/butcher animal - cut it by half because now you are able to get 8 or by one animal.
3 Tweak myths to give +0.5 instead of 1 . Since we have a big spawn rate of animals it is too easy to get all myths and with moddifiers from civics and buildings they are too powerfull. I have 100 points each turn.

BTW Why Tapir can build myth of elephant?

Please consider this points because game is great great great but need some balance.
I can post save game on evening if it si needed

1) I do need to go back and rebalance the Hunter line. I think the original versions assumed that the promotions replaced earlier promotions rather than adding to them.

2) I do need to redo the returns but only to make them a bit more consistent. I doubt I would reduce them by much. I would like to adjust these for game speed but that is not an option at the moment. I also need to redo the science, culture and happiness ones.

3) I disagree. Even with all the Myths they are only reducing the time it takes to research a tech by at most one turn. The science boost also goes away quite early. This means that I think they are behaving as intended ie to provide a boost to to simulate the explosion in knowledge in the Neolithic period.

4) There are eastern myths where Tapirs and Elephants are the same thing.

Though technically Tapirs are more related to Rhinos and Horses. In fact if you took the horn off a Rhino they kinda look like an armored Tapir.

Wow, I didn't know they had such books and knowledge in the Prehistoric Era, I will have to change everything about.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@DH

Well ironically the myth of the Unicorn is more "accurate" than the myth of the elephant. Since horses are more related to rhinos than elephants are to tapirs.

 

[Taxman66]

I don't know what Nimek is talking about. My chasers seemed to get constantly offed by middling animals like Moas and Eagles.

 

[Faustmouse]

@DH

Well ironically the myth of the Unicorn is more "accurate" than the myth of the elephant. Since horses are more related to rhinos than elephants are to tapirs.

keep in mind that they couldn't use mitochondric DNA to find out how close animals are related to each other. If they looked similar, they were "the same". If old chinese thought a Tapir was kind of an elephant, than the myth could stay with no trouble. It's just a myth.

 

[Yudishtira]

keep in mind that they couldn't use mitochondric DNA to find out how close animals are related to each other. If they looked similar, they were "the same". If old chinese thought a Tapir was kind of an elephant, than the myth could stay with no trouble. It's just a myth.

Yeah for 'mythmaking' and therefore culture purposes I can see that you get an advantage (more scope for imagination) by exaggerating the exoticness/size etc. of your find. But in beaker terms, if you have mistaken a tapir for an elephant, surely that would amount to a research penalty, cancelled out by a bonus when it obsoletes. Just sayin' (it's too trivial to worry me personally)...

 

[Faustmouse]

Yeah for 'mythmaking' and therefore culture purposes I can see that you get an advantage (more scope for imagination) by exaggerating the exoticness/size etc. of your find. But in beaker terms, if you have mistaken a tapir for an elephant, surely that would amount to a research penalty, cancelled out by a bonus when it obsoletes. Just sayin' (it's too trivial to worry me personally)...

So... the same penalty when mistaking a Comodo Dragon with a Dragon, a manatee with a marmaid or an eagly with a phoenix? Sure, those don't give a research bonus, but I imagine myths like like one person tells some others:
"there is an animal with a long "nose"! What the others learn is that such an animal exisits, which is knowledge. It doesn't really matter if it was a Tapir or an elephant. Most of them won't ever see an elephant.

 

[Nimek]

I don't know what Nimek is talking about. My chasers seemed to get constantly offed by middling animals like Moas and Eagles.

Now I have tracker with IV hunter promotion and he is immortal belive me - even with hunter 3 he was. Note that woodsman promos also gives bonuses vs animals and ihave it all also.

@DH

Thanks for your understanding

If myths dont give big science bonuses so maybe something is wrong in tech costs. I dont think that 2-4 turn per tech on snail is norlam but maybe I am wrong.

All the best for all

 

[Yudishtira]

Now I have tracker with IV hunter promotion and he is immortal belive me - even with hunter 3 he was. Note that woodsman promos also gives bonuses vs animals and ihave it all also.

A mere hunter with no promotions is a match for a mammoth, so I do think the hunter line overall are a bit OP. I'm only building Rangers in case they run into an ambusher or are caught behind enemy lines when a war starts...

Same with boats: I don't think I've lost a Hunt I canoe in this save (admittedly I've met no giant squids), let alone War Canoes -> Galleys -> War Galleys etc. (I remember now I lost one galley but it was an unpromoted one I bought cheaply from somewhere) I think a civilian canoe, even promoted, should be like 50/50 against any whale.

 

[LumenAngel]

Same with boats: I don't think I've lost a Hunt I canoe in this save (admittedly I've met no giant squids

Crocodile are still a problem for them...
Some animals have bonus against wooden boat

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Now I have tracker with IV hunter promotion and he is immortal belive me - even with hunter 3 he was. Note that woodsman promos also gives bonuses vs animals and ihave it all also.

@DH

Thanks for your understanding

If myths dont give big science bonuses so maybe something is wrong in tech costs. I dont think that 2-4 turn per tech on snail is norlam but maybe I am wrong.

All the best for all

Strange even with all the myth buildings and the Elder Council, it was taking 4-6 turns per tech, and I think that is too fast. I play snail also.

I will be looking into the possibility of targeting techs instead of a flat science boost. I know some mods allow it but not if C2C does. That will change things considerably. EG Myth of Wolf gives boost to Canine Domestication and Animal Husbandry style.

A mere hunter with no promotions is a match for a mammoth, so I do think the hunter line overall are a bit OP. I'm only building trackers in case they run into an ambusher or are caught behind enemy lines when a war starts...

Same with boats: I don't think I've lost a Hunt I canoe in this save (admittedly I've met no giant squids), let alone War Canoes -> Galleys -> War Galleys etc. (I remember now I lost one galley but it was an unpromoted one I bought cheaply from somewhere) I think a civilian canoe, even promoted, should be like 50/50 against any whale.

I loose to Mammoths often enough thanks. Even my highly promoted units Hunters with 112+ exp loose against ambushers most of the time.

Subdued Animals has not kept up with the changes in the ship line, I agree, so some work needs doing there.

 

[Yudishtira]

I loose to Mammoths often enough thanks. Even my highly promoted units Hunters with 112+ exp loose against ambushers most of the time.

Oops - what I said makes more sense if I explain I meant 'Rangers' when I said 'trackers'. My most promoted unit has 50XP (in v27) so all I can say is I'm sorry to hear that about your hunters....

 

[strategyonly]

Just saw this unit, might want it to keep inline unit the same?? there is also a darker one than the one we us, also could be used with the inline for trapper??

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Looks like the one we have for the hunter.

 

[strategyonly]

Looks like the one we have for the hunter.

Close thats why i mentioned these:

1. Hunter we use.
2. Trapper we use (light colored)
3. Trapper i found extra (darker)
4. Then the one in above post with emblems on uniform.

Also this is the very FIRST time i have seen a settled resource being made, in over 10 games?? Is there anyways to up the % of these settled units?? pic 4

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Also this is the very FIRST time i have seen a settled resource being made, in over 10 games?? Is there anyways to up the % of these settled units?? pic 4

It is no longer in Python so I can't modify it, it is now in the DLL.

 

[ls612]

Also this is the very FIRST time i have seen a settled resource being made, in over 10 games?? Is there anyways to up the % of these settled units?? pic 4

The odds of that happening are intentionally very low, as there are lots of subdued animals in any game and a too many new bonuses can easily unbalance Prehistoric gameplay.

 

[GT Ranma]

Yeah, I brought this up earlier too, as I had never seen it before too. Now that I knew to look out for it, I've seen it happen once or twice per game.

One of the reasons it's so low is because the tile you killed the unit in has to be without a resource, and the unit has to be the right type to have a resource. So yeah, it is pretty low, but kinda neato. (Even though it angers me every time it happens, I wanted to select the city to give it to ; ; )

 

[strategyonly]

The odds of that happening are intentionally very low, as there are lots of subdued animals in any game and a too many new bonuses can easily unbalance Prehistoric gameplay.

If like in the Heroic II python a 5% is nothing at all, and wont happen maybe once in 5 games, if that. So anything like that is pretty darn low, and so is the Heroic II IMO.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

It was about 20% of the time you would have captured (iirc) but only if the plot does not already have a resource and if it is not next to a resource of the same type. People were complaining that they were getting large areas of deer for example. Which is the reason for the last restriction.

I get two or three fish/crab resources this way per game. In my current game I have had both a deer and poultry resource spawn.