Subdued Animals in C2C discussions

[Koshling]

All. For outcome missions it is clear. With the same mission ID defined on both unit type and unit combat types, the unit type takes precedence.


Ok, then this is what I will do:
If there are kill outcomes on both the unit type and combat types, it will merge them temporarily but only add one of each outcome type so an outcome type on the unit type will override the same outcome type on a unit combat type.

I presume the AI outcome evaluation will 'drop out in the wash' from this, since the outcome value evaluated will be the one that the mission would result in?

 

[AIAndy]

I presume the AI outcome evaluation will 'drop out in the wash' from this, since the outcome value evaluated will be the one that the mission would result in?

The code that I added will work for the mission evaluation as long as a mission on a combat type is not overwritten by a worse mission on the unit type (because it evaluates those independently at the moment and assumes it can do the better one).

Kill outcomes are not evaluated yet afaik which is the more complex case with the list merging.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@Dancing Hoskuld

As to the rest no more [animals] are going in until I get the problem with the different maps having different coordinate sets sorted. Well I can't do anything about it the dll/map people will have to come up with something.

So what is the status of that stuff? And when can we see the new animals i converted put in the mod?

 

[Hydromancerx]

- Trained Big Cat line of units - work in progress added to Alt_Timelines/Big_Cats do not use. These don't work at all yet, I just put the work that had been done on the SVN so it would not be lost. I have done a very small bit of tidying up. There is something wrong with one of the units art and there are no buildings at all. It will also need some links to subdue animals. It is here so anyone who wants to can continue the work.

Which ones would build the building(s) and which ones would upgrade to the units.

Ok I collected all the info from the various posts for you ...


Buildings

Big Cat Trainer [World Wonder]
Req Tech: Feline Domestication AND Megafauna Domestication
Req Buildings: Myth of the Spotted Cat OR Myth of the Tiger OR Myth of the Lion OR Myth - Paleolithic Cat OR Enclosure - Big Cat

Units

Trained Cats
Type: Feline
Req Tech: Feline Domestication AND Megafauna Domestication
Req Building: Big Cat Trainer

Warcats
Type: Feline
Req Tech: Military Training
Req Building: Big Cat Trainer AND Barracks

Guard Cats
Type: Feline
Req Tech: Leadership
Req Building: Big Cat Trainer AND Garrison

Police Cats
Type: Feline
Req Tech: Criminology
Req Building: Big Cat Trainer AND Police Station

Feline Superior
Type: Feline / Clone
Req Tech: Homo Superior
Req Building: Big Cat Trainer AND RePet

Note all Feline units are the same as their Canine counterparts except they are stealthy like rogues but cannot detect stealthy units like dogs can.

Upgrades

Subdued Cats -> Trained Cats -> Warcats -> Guard Cats -> Police Cats -> Feline Superior

Subdued Cats that can Upgrade into a Trained Cat

- Subdued Bengal Tiger
- Subdued Cave Lion
- Subdued Cheetah
- Subdued Jaguar
- Subdued Lion
- Subdued Lion Pack
- Subdued Lynx
- Subdued Panther
- Subdued Sabertooth
- Subdued Siberian Tiger
- Subdued Snow Leopard

 

[strategyonly]

Here are 2 sounds that you might want, 1 Raven, the other Disease.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

OK given the following from the SVN thread

Update
Outcome missions and kill outcomes can now be added to unit combat types.

We can discuss combat types for subdued animals. I want to change the kill and butcher outcomes to be consistent based on size and type (fish, mammal, bird etc) of animal and better link the results to the techs the player has. Eg "Chopping" tech may increase the amount of from a kill while scrapping may improve the from the kill.

I was thinking of unit combat types like TINY_MAMMAL (rabbit sized) SMALL_MAMMAL (house cat/dog sized) MANSIZED_MAMMAL, LARGE_MAMMAL (horse or lion) and VERY_LARGE_MAMMAL (Rhino, Hippo, Elephant and Mammoth)

 

[Thunderbrd]

DH: I'm hoping to get some movement on the subcombat definitions at this time and it sounds like you need it just as much as I do. Please consider the discussion in the first Combat Mod thread and see what you can make of the effort there to organize ourselves for new combat class developments. This suggestion you just made should also be noted there. We can work together on this stuff to greater effect than simply having independent efforts to categorize that may not harmonize well with the other efforts.

 

[Yudishtira]

With regard to unit combats, it's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog. An animal's size is not going to correlate much at all to how much of a threat it is.

Secondly, in relation to how much food/hammers they are worth, and so as cetaceans wouldn't feel neglected, I compiled the following:
Orca: roughly same size as African elephant
Whale shark: 1.5 elephants (9 tonnes avg.)
Minke whale: roughly same as Af. elephant - actually slightly smaller
Humpback whale: 25-30 tonnes - 5 times African elephant

With the blubber, whales would probably give a higher proportion of hammers to food - not that blubber can't be eaten, but more of it is likely to be used as oil.

And then for comparison:
Mammoth: mostly African elephant sized
Hippo: 1.5 - 3 tonnes - half an African elephant
Indian or white rhino: 1.5 - 3.5 tonnes
Javan rhino: 1 tonne
Indian elephant: 3 - 5 tonnes: three-quarters of an African

And then if they are in the mod or will be in future:
Sei whale: 15-20 tonnes
Fin whale: 60 tonnes
Blue whale: 170 tonnes!
Sperm whale: 40 tonnes male, 11 tonnes female
Southern right whale: 40 tonnes

Mastodon: same as a small African elephant (4 tonnes)
Irish elk/megaloceros: half a tonne (0.1 African elephant)

Have fun with that won't you.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

DH: I'm hoping to get some movement on the subcombat definitions at this time and it sounds like you need it just as much as I do. Please consider the discussion in the first Combat Mod thread and see what you can make of the effort there to organize ourselves for new combat class developments. This suggestion you just made should also be noted there. We can work together on this stuff to greater effect than simply having independent efforts to categorize that may not harmonize well with the other efforts.

It was 1am when I saw that AIAndy had done the changes to allow outcomes on unit combat classes. I just wanted to give you a heads up. I know we have discussed this before and I tried to address some of the issues with the 'threat' promotions.

With regard to unit combats, it's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog. An animal's size is not going to correlate much at all to how much of a threat it is.

Secondly, in relation to how much food/hammers they are worth, and so as cetaceans wouldn't feel neglected, I compiled the following:
Orca: roughly same size as African elephant
Whale shark: 1.5 elephants (9 tonnes avg.)
Minke whale: roughly same as Af. elephant - actually slightly smaller
Humpback whale: 25-30 tonnes - 5 times African elephant

With the blubber, whales would probably give a higher proportion of hammers to food - not that blubber can't be eaten, but more of it is likely to be used as oil.

And then for comparison:
Mammoth: mostly African elephant sized
Hippo: 1.5 - 3 tonnes - half an African elephant
Indian or white rhino: 1.5 - 3.5 tonnes
Javan rhino: 1 tonne
Indian elephant: 3 - 5 tonnes: three-quarters of an African

And then if they are in the mod or will be in future:
Sei whale: 15-20 tonnes
Fin whale: 60 tonnes
Blue whale: 170 tonnes!
Sperm whale: 40 tonnes male, 11 tonnes female
Southern right whale: 40 tonnes

Mastodon: same as a small African elephant (4 tonnes)
Irish elk/megaloceros: half a tonne (0.1 African elephant)

Have fun with that won't you.

The problem is that at the moment I have to have 4 definitions per animal on how much food, hammers, gold etc you get from kill/butcher. What that means is that the newer animals are better balanced to the C2C situation than are the older ones. It is just too difficult to change. Same goes for the culture/science/happiness from study and combat.

The amount of food and hammers you can get off an animal is strongly related to your technology. In the early times you would be competing with other predators and scavengers, so you would probably get as much from a large animal as one you could carry away whole.

 

[Hydromancerx]

OK given the following from the SVN thread

We can discuss combat types for subdued animals. I want to change the kill and butcher outcomes to be consistent based on size and type (fish, mammal, bird etc) of animal and better link the results to the techs the player has. Eg "Chopping" tech may increase the amount of from a kill while scrapping may improve the from the kill.

I was thinking of unit combat types like TINY_MAMMAL (rabbit sized) SMALL_MAMMAL (house cat/dog sized) MANSIZED_MAMMAL, LARGE_MAMMAL (horse or lion) and VERY_LARGE_MAMMAL (Rhino, Hippo, Elephant and Mammoth)

In D&D they have a great system for sizes.

Fine = Fly
Diminutive = Toad
Tiny = Cat
Small = Human (Child)
Medium = Human (Adult)
Large = Horse
Huge = Elephant
Gargantuan = Whale
Colossal = Dinosaur

I recommended we use this system since it could come in handy for TB's Combat mod. And thus combat using these categories is already done for us. For example small unit getting +1 AC while a large unit gets -1 AC due to their size.

 

[Thunderbrd]

In D&D they have a great system for sizes.

Fine = Fly
Diminutive = Toad
Tiny = Cat
Small = Human (Child)
Medium = Human (Adult)
Large = Horse
Huge = Elephant
Gargantuan = Whale
Colossal = Dinosaur

I recommended we use this system since it could come in handy for TB's Combat mod. And thus combat using these categories is already done for us. For example small unit getting +1 AC while a large unit gets -1 AC due to their size.

I agree completely, but what gets tricky about this application is that it is a separate CC. It's currently impossible to have, say, a combat modifier applied against only a Large Mammal (aka specifying more than one CC). We may need some new tags to enable that sort of thing.

I can hear the gears in AIAndy's head turn at this comment: Maybe we need a generic tag for all these effects where we can specify as many or as little conditions for a modifier as we want. IMO, text displays are what would make that difficult (and it'd be beyond me to program) but probably would be a great solution if applied to Combat Modifiers, Withdrawal Modifiers, and everything like those. (A bit of a list to compile there...)

 

[Hydromancerx]

I agree completely, but what gets tricky about this application is that it is a separate CC. It's currently impossible to have, say, a combat modifier applied against only a Large Mammal (aka specifying more than one CC). We may need some new tags to enable that sort of thing.

I can hear the gears in AIAndy's head turn at this comment: Maybe we need a generic tag for all these effects where we can specify as many or as little conditions for a modifier as we want. IMO, text displays are what would make that difficult (and it'd be beyond me to program) but probably would be a great solution if applied to Combat Modifiers, Withdrawal Modifiers, and everything like those. (A bit of a list to compile there...)

I was thinking more in the way of promotions that only that class get. Such as all Large Units get a Size (Large) promotion that has that large traits in it. That way you get the best of both worlds where anti-promotions can be against the class while the promotions provide the unique nature of the class.

Such as ...

Promotion A = +25% Attack vs Large Size Units

 

[SilentConfusion]

I was thinking more in the way of promotions that only that class get. Such as all Large Units get a Size (Large) promotion that has that large traits in it. That way you get the best of both worlds where anti-promotions can be against the class while the promotions provide the unique nature of the class.

Such as ...

Promotion A = +25% Attack vs Large Size Units

But what if you wanted +25% Attack vs. Large Animals and not vs. Large Vehicles?

 

[Thunderbrd]

I was thinking more in the way of promotions that only that class get. Such as all Large Units get a Size (Large) promotion that has that large traits in it. That way you get the best of both worlds where anti-promotions can be against the class while the promotions provide the unique nature of the class.

Such as ...

Promotion A = +25% Attack vs Large Size Units

That's right. It works just fine that way. It's just as SC stated... that's the spot we're going to have to work on and the more I think about it the more I'm convinced we should do what I said a few posts ago... implement new tag methods that enable multiple specifications to modifiers. Wouldn't be too tough I don't think but I'm not sure. It'd be a new trick for me. In the meantime, isolating the units into basic categories like Sizes as you put forth and so on is something we need to REALLY focus on in this cycle. The desire for the Equipment to come to the fore also requires this step too. So apparently the time for this SubCombat implementation is now.

Wouldn't you agree SC?

 

[SilentConfusion]

That's right. It works just fine that way. It's just as SC stated... that's the spot we're going to have to work on and the more I think about it the more I'm convinced we should do what I said a few posts ago... implement new tag methods that enable multiple specifications to modifiers. Wouldn't be too tough I don't think but I'm not sure. It'd be a new trick for me. In the meantime, isolating the units into basic categories like Sizes as you put forth and so on is something we need to REALLY focus on in this cycle. The desire for the Equipment to come to the fore also requires this step too. So apparently the time for this SubCombat implementation is now.

Wouldn't you agree SC?

Everyone interested in helping define SubCombat Classes should feel free to use the google spreadsheet at this link. Add, subtract, write notes.

I started trying to think about the necessary SubCombat Classes (SCCs), but I find it is easier for me to think about what SCCs we need by first looking at what we want to do with equipment, special promotions, poisons, etc. and then figure out what SCCs we would want so that certain equipment and promotions go on the right units. Aside from making some general SCCs that are obviously going to be needed, I suggest delving into equipment for example and then see what unit groupings need to have certain equipment; that should tell us what SCCs we need. For example, if I'm thinking about the equipment-line clubs (wooden, spiked, etc.) I know I need a SCC called something like CLUB_WIELDERS.

It would be a nice design element, if it is not too difficult to implement, the ability to allow promotions to specify combinations of SCCs such as LARGE and ANIMAL (BIG_GAME_HUNTER promotion).

 

[Yudishtira]

Except that the blue whale is bigger than any dinosaur there ever was. Whales (if you include killer whales) vary from smaller than elephants to bigger than any dinosaur. Dinosaurs also vary a lot of course. And considering 'dog' is only one species, it's amazing that it varies from almost diminutive (chihuahua) to arguably medium (human-sized) with the wolfhound.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Everyone interested in helping define SubCombat Classes should feel free to use the google spreadsheet at this link. Add, subtract, write notes.

I started trying to think about the necessary SubCombat Classes (SCCs), but I find it is easier for me to think about what SCCs we need by first looking at what we want to do with equipment, special promotions, poisons, etc. and then figure out what SCCs we would want so that certain equipment and promotions go on the right units. Aside from making some general SCCs that are obviously going to be needed, I suggest delving into equipment for example and then see what unit groupings need to have certain equipment; that should tell us what SCCs we need. For example, if I'm thinking about the equipment-line clubs (wooden, spiked, etc.) I know I need a SCC called something like CLUB_WIELDERS.

It would be a nice design element, if it is not too difficult to implement, the ability to allow promotions to specify combinations of SCCs such as LARGE and ANIMAL (BIG_GAME_HUNTER promotion).

Made a couple of adjustments and notes. And yeah, that last bit I think will become necessary (as well as being able to identify those with a particular CC but NOT with a particular CC.) Some of AIAndy's generic tag work could become very useful here but I'm not sure how to convert the many tags we'd need converted yet.

 

[Hydromancerx]

But what if you wanted +25% Attack vs. Large Animals and not vs. Large Vehicles?

+25% vs Large
-25% vs Vehicles

That's sort of what we do for the Cranes and Carpenter's Workshop where we have +10% and -10% Military Production so it only gives +10% production for Buildings.

Except that the blue whale is bigger than any dinosaur there ever was. Whales (if you include killer whales) vary from smaller than elephants to bigger than any dinosaur. Dinosaurs also vary a lot of course. And considering 'dog' is only one species, it's amazing that it varies from almost diminutive (chihuahua) to arguably medium (human-sized) with the wolfhound.

I almost put Humpback Whale and Blue Whale. But its hard to know where they sit on the chart since in D&D they had Purple Worm (Gargantuan) and Red Dragon (Colossal) as the sizes. Is an Orca Huge or Gargantuan?

 

[Thunderbrd]

Orca would be Huge. Most likely the largest whales would be Gargantuan. Colossal would be set aside for something the size of a modern carrier or a Battletech Dropship (does anyone here have any familiarity with Battletech?)


To some extent the +/- method could work for isolating out special cases like that but if AIAndy can toss in some assistance with more generic methods we may not need it to operate like that. I'd like, for example, a disease to only qualify to afflict a unit if the unit is human but the human is not in a vehicle. If I could get a handle on HOW he goes about his more generic tags I could replicate it for these types. But that's a lot of learning there to catch up to all that.

 

[Yudishtira]

I almost put Humpback Whale and Blue Whale. But its hard to know where they sit on the chart since in D&D they had Purple Worm (Gargantuan) and Red Dragon (Colossal) as the sizes. Is an Orca Huge or Gargantuan?

Orca is huge - even minke whales, which are smaller than orcas, are. But where does 'gargantuan' start - and end! In mass, blue whales are about twice the largest well-known dinosaur, and three times the next biggest whale.

(In D&D they loved playing with the subtle differences in the meanings of words, didn't they? )

Consider also the anaconda. In D&D terms, it is certainly large at 20ft long, but it weighs less than 100kg (220lbs okay), and is thus 'medium'.

My main point is, mass is probably the important factor for determining food and hammer worth, but is no good for the 'threat level' of the beastie, or its 'unit combat' (which I think means the ways it tends to interact in-game with critters not on its 'team').

The other question that was raised (by DH not you), about techs and how much you could get away from scavengers etc., well that's just a whole other can of worms! If the transportation of the kill was currently represented at all, we might be able to work that in.