Subdued Animals in C2C discussions

[Dancing Hoskuld]

My main point is, mass is probably the important factor for determining food and hammer worth, but is no good for the 'threat level' of the beastie, or its 'unit combat' (which I think means the ways it tends to interact in-game with critters not on its 'team').

Unit combat class is just a way of classifying units it may not have anything to do with threat level which we already have promotions for "mostly harmless" style which reduce or increase the attack strength of an animal unit pigeons have a -95% strength promotion for example. I may do just one or two to start to see if I can in fact use these methods to make things easier for me and more balanced in game. "MAMMAL_HORSE" (horses, zebra, some of the antelope we have in game as well as cows_ and "MAMMAL_DEER" all deer and the rest of the antelope. The main difference between these two is that antlers are ready made tools that were used up until the bronze age so "MAMMAL_DEER" would have a higher yield in the early periods.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Should probably just be HORSE (or rather EQUINE) and DEER (@Hydro: aren't deer and antelope and such in the same family? I can't recall the name for that though... and that's probably what that category should be.) Allow MAMMAL to be its own CC. Then assign both of them. There are things that could be common to all MAMMALS but not be common to both equines and deer-like critters.

If the transportation of the kill was currently represented at all, we might be able to work that in.

I'd like to do this eventually, yes. I consider it part of the Nomadic Start project and mentioned that I'd like to set this up in that thread.

 

[Yudishtira]

The taxonomic family for deer is Cervidae, so the word for them in general is 'cervid'. It is a word, but I don't recall ever seeing it used.

ETA: Very surprised to find this does not include antelope, who have no such word apparently. They are in the family with goats, sheep and cattle.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

OK I'll use "SUBDUED_A" and "SUBDUED_B" the difference is that "A" does not have useful tools growing on them while "B" does. Antlers don't need much "working" to make them useful picks. They need a lot more work to turn them into spoons.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Would it be necessary to declare the difference between subdued and not subdued in the animals there?

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Not for anything I need for this mod. I am just using "SUBDUED" as the key to tell you where that unit combat class is used.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I was just thinking that we could further utilize the CC on non-subdued animals and cut down on the need for more if we don't specify the subdued segment on those. For example, UNIT_COMBAT_EQUINE could be sufficient for your needs right?

 

[Hydromancerx]

Should probably just be HORSE (or rather EQUINE) and DEER (@Hydro: aren't deer and antelope and such in the same family? I can't recall the name for that though... and that's probably what that category should be.) Allow MAMMAL to be its own CC. Then assign both of them. There are things that could be common to all MAMMALS but not be common to both equines and deer-like critters.

As a bio-geek asking me which names fits might not be best since what I know and what the general public know are different. names like Equine, Pachyderms, Rodent or even Marsupial are names that the general public might know. But names like Ungulates (Hoofed Animals), Lagomorphs (Rabbits) and Pinnipeds (Seals) you might not know. Note that the only reason I know this stuff is when I was a little kid I was infatuated with animal books and nature documentaries. I even wanted to be a zoologist when I grew up.

So yeah Deer would be a "cervid" (family). Deer and Antelope are under the Order "Artiodactyla" or "Even Toed Ungulates" which also includes Pigs, Hippos, Camels, Giraffes, Goats and Cows.

For some perspective Humans are in the family of Hominidae wich we share with Chimps, Gorillas, Orangutans and Neanderthals. But we are in the order Primates which we share with also Monkeys and Lemurs too.

So the question is how far do you want to categorize units. Should we be catagorizing on the Order or Family? Or at some other level ...

Kingdom (ex. Plants vs Animals)
- Phylum (ex. Vertebrates vs Invertebrates)
-- Class (ex. Mammals vs Birds)
--- Order (ex. Primate vs Rodent)
---- Family (ex. Canine vs Feline)
----- Genus (ex. Mammoth vs Elephant)
------ Species (ex. Neanderthal vs Human)

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I always felt it was a pity that the hoofed carnivours did not survive - claws just to good an adaption I suppose.

The normal taxonomies suggested are useless for the Myths and outcomes for butchering, fighting (entertainment) and study. Just because a bok-bok and gnu are antelopes does not mean you get the same amount of food off them. Just because the Elephant and tapir are not related does not mean that myths don't have them as the same animal.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Yes Mesonychid are awesome!

And yes I agree about the myths aspect. Humans had no idea of DNA. I mean how could people know that Elephants, Manatees and Hyrax are all related yet look completely different from each other?

 

[Thunderbrd]

So the question is how far do you want to categorize units. Should we be catagorizing on the Order or Family? Or at some other level ...

Kingdom (ex. Plants vs Animals)
- Phylum (ex. Vertebrates vs Invertebrates)
-- Class (ex. Mammals vs Birds)
--- Order (ex. Primate vs Rodent)
---- Family (ex. Canine vs Feline)
----- Genus (ex. Mammoth vs Elephant)
------ Species (ex. Neanderthal vs Human)

Certainly Class is an obvious dividing factor. Order - yeah, sometimes that's significant enough. Family - where necessary - the examples given are good cause for definition. Genus - probably usually not necessary. Species - At times, sure, this is a good divider... the example given is definitely one. But for most animals, this is the very unit definition itself and thus becomes unnecessary. Of course, canine and feline units (those the player can build) aren't usually defined further than Family.

I'm thinking Order, Family, Genus should all be considered but I wouldn't think we'd often want to have, or even need to have, more than one division from those three on a given unit. I could be wrong.

It really depends on what feels necessary for us in most cases for the sake of the game, but all layers should be considered potentially useful. And I'm not against more complex scientific naming. Civ IS an educational game after all.

 

[Yudishtira]

Species differentiation is always important - ignore it at your peril. No-one would argue we should not distinguish between people and Neanderthals. And may I remind you you already have two very different rhinos in the game.

However, for the sake of simplicity, I don't really care whether it's a chimp or a bonobo. I don't particularly care what kind of eagle, or hawk, or pigeon/dove, or parrot, or vulture it is. And as long as it isn't King Kong, I don't much care whether the gorilla is on first-name terms with Jane Goodall and Sigourney Weaver - or not.

It boils down to whether there's a big difference in size basically, and maybe ferocity. I think...

 

[AIAndy]

I always felt it was a pity that the hoofed carnivours did not survive - claws just to good an adaption I suppose.

The normal taxonomies suggested are useless for the Myths and outcomes for butchering, fighting (entertainment) and study. Just because a bok-bok and gnu are antelopes does not mean you get the same amount of food off them. Just because the Elephant and tapir are not related does not mean that myths don't have them as the same animal.

Think about what unit combat types would minimize the amount of XML then think about names afterwards. We might even make them invisible combat types if it is not a meaningful name for the player.

 

[Kryanni]

Say, subdued animals stay subdued, right? So there's currently no penalty (or possible interesting events) for parking a whole bunch of them in town?

Still in the prehistoric era of my first game; I guess I'll have to see whether I can build a zoo with later tech.

 

[MaXimillionZero]

Say, subdued animals stay subdued, right? So there's currently no penalty (or possible interesting events) for parking a whole bunch of them in town?

They cost unit maintenance.

 

[strategyonly]

Say, subdued animals stay subdued, right? So there's currently no penalty (or possible interesting events) for parking a whole bunch of them in town?

Still in the prehistoric era of my first game; I guess I'll have to see whether I can build a zoo with later tech.

Do what i do, move them around to each city that needs them, to pick up on the , it may not be much but in that Era, but it adds up.

 

[ls612]

Say, subdued animals stay subdued, right? So there's currently no penalty (or possible interesting events) for parking a whole bunch of them in town?

Still in the prehistoric era of my first game; I guess I'll have to see whether I can build a zoo with later tech.

They don't run amok and cause havoc if that is what you are asking. But they do cost money if they are above your free unit level.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Say, subdued animals stay subdued, right? So there's currently no penalty (or possible interesting events) for parking a whole bunch of them in town?

Still in the prehistoric era of my first game; I guess I'll have to see whether I can build a zoo with later tech.

I have a huge number "parked" outside my capital. I build "new city" stacks with them. Besides the stack outside my capital I have three stacks near my border waiting for settlers.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Think about what unit combat types would minimize the amount of XML then think about names afterwards. We might even make them invisible combat types if it is not a meaningful name for the player.

Invisible CCs... interesting concept I'll keep an eye out for the potential for some of them being made invisible.

 

[strategyonly]

I have a huge number "parked" outside my capital. I build "new city" stacks with them. Besides the stack outside my capital I have three stacks near my border waiting for settlers.

Never even thought of that, EXCELLENT idea!