Subdued Animals in C2C discussions

[dilophosaur]

Hendrix wrote some scripts to allow Blender work on .bfb model files in Extinct Animals official expansion pack for ZT2. If you wanna make sth with it, I'll try to get the link.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

9692

• Recosting for the remainder of buildings in the Religions module.

EDIT: @Dancing Hoskuld : I just took a look at your myths and stories. It's a very interesting structure you have going on there, one that I now understand a bit more having looked at the xml directly. I decided that I'm not going to touch the costing on those because there are a LOT of special extenuating circumstances to them.

However, that said, there are some myths and stories in the core that may be best adapted back into your main module there. Myth of the Bear is one that stands out. And then there are some experimentals that I'm not sure if they align with the methodology on the rest of them or not.

You might want to review the costs to compare them to the charts but they seemed somewhat appropriate. The Stories are overcosted by a bit based on the era, or undercost if they are national wonders perhaps. Anyhow, it's all kinda hovering in the rightish range it seems. Basing that on a proxy tech of the most expensive required buildings since we don't have actual tech prereqs for them (I assume this is to help keep the tech tree help hovers from getting overwhelming.)

The problem is that these things have changed a lot over time and there are over 500 animals to change each time one of these changes happens.

Animal Myths are there for a boost in science in the stone ages. They were also intended for use as prerequisites for Cultures replacing some of the stranger mixes of vicinity bonuses.

Animal Story buildings are there to end the boost but still allow for Cultures.

Animal Stories are a pseudo National Wonder. They can only be built by units because people were complaining about them being available in the city build area.

Having said that there are two types of "animal" the individual of that species and the "taxonomy animal". Many of the taxonomy ones were made first so you had just a "spotted cat" myth but no "jaguar myth" (you do now) but some like lions and wolves have not been converted yet.

While the individual animal myths are aimed at Cultures the taxonomy myths were aimed at entertainment and science.

Each does require a tech but they actually require an auto-building that you get with a tech instead of the tech itself. Yes that way you don't get the animal buildings pushing more "important" buildings out of the tech information.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I'm just saying there are just some loose ends that if we could get them tied off wouldn't lend so much confusion to players in-game. And it's definitely caused some discord with the recosting project as some buildings are recost and others are not.

 

[Rmi]

Imho, streamlining the herds seems more important than the stories at this point. There are many herds and carnival related buildings you can't get the animals for.
The ability to build a well stocked menagerie of herds and bear cages etc would help out the AI more than the player due to build cost/times. The AI can't hunt well but it can build faster.
Missing animals are for herds:
Deer,
Goat,
Kangaroo,
Poultry (any),
Ratite (any),
Sheep,
Zebra.

And for carnival and other buildings

Eagle / Hawk
Spider
Crocodile (or other nasty gnarly)
beaver / platypus
A nighttime animal
Fish for fish pens
Sea creatures for the aquaria and labs.
The kangaroo would cover the boxing kangaroo and the marsupial cage and any bird can build a featherworker.


My suggestion for streamlining purposes would be for all animals to have a myth, but not story and stories. (There are sooo many stories, enough to get +3000 education in every city easy)
Keep story and stories for taxonomy animals, like bears, canines, cats and marsupials, fish, aquatic mammals. You can build these in a city, or use subdued animals.
Have a myth for these animal types as we do now as well, and use this myth as the culture requirement. It's a more manageable number.

Then have the tamer units work according to these myths. Bovine gets you cows, bison and buffalo. Equine gets you horses and donkeys etc. this would make access to animals easier for everyone, especially the AI.

Finally, clear up the list. Hippos as of now have no use, and we can build like 7 different bears.


As always, this is my brainstorm / wishlist. I am already very grateful for the amount of work and free time you spend in this game for our enjoyment.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Imho, streamlining the herds seems more important than the stories at this point. There are many herds and carnival related buildings you can't get the animals for.
The ability to build a well stocked menagerie of herds and bear cages etc would help out the AI more than the player due to build cost/times. The AI can't hunt well but it can build faster.
Missing animals are for herds:
Deer,
Goat,
Kangaroo,
Poultry (any),
Ratite (any),
Sheep,
Zebra.

I am assuming you mean place them as bonuses on the map as they can already all place herd buildings in the city. I do have a graphic for a goat herd somewhere but not a rattite one.

The ones that can do that were an experiment and Pepper2000 has come up with a much better way of coding it.

And for carnival and other buildings

Eagle / Hawk
Spider
Crocodile (or other nasty gnarly)
beaver / platypus
A nighttime animal
Fish for fish pens
Sea creatures for the aquaria and labs.
The kangaroo would cover the boxing kangaroo and the marsupial cage and any bird can build a featherworker.

With the exception of spider and platypus these are already available in the game. Some are restricted by latitude eg the early (classical era) versions of the fish pen buildings.

My suggestion for streamlining purposes would be for all animals to have a myth, but not story and stories. (There are sooo many stories, enough to get +3000 education in every city easy)
Keep story and stories for taxonomy animals, like bears, canines, cats and marsupials, fish, aquatic mammals. You can build these in a city, or use subdued animals.
Have a myth for these animal types as we do now as well, and use this myth as the culture requirement. It's a more manageable number.

Then have the tamer units work according to these myths. Bovine gets you cows, bison and buffalo. Equine gets you horses and donkeys etc. this would make access to animals easier for everyone, especially the AI.

Finally, clear up the list. Hippos as of now have no use, and we can build like 7 different bears.


As always, this is my brainstorm / wishlist. I am already very grateful for the amount of work and free time you spend in this game for our enjoyment.

While having Myths only for each animal and Myths/Story/Stories for each taxonomy group (note not necessarily modern taxonomy either) would work, having the set of tamed animals based on the taxonomy group wont.

All the different animals are there for use in Cultures but that side has not been done. eg Polar Bears as a prerequisite for the Devonian Culture, a pre-Inuit Culture famous for it's polar bear art.

 

[Rmi]

What i meant was for the animal tamer having the ability to make 'tamed' versions of these listed animals. Right now every kangaroo etc. has to be subdued by a hunter. They cannot be build/trained/bred.
Giving the animal tamer full functionality would be fun for the human for collecting, and a great boost for the AI, as it is always far behind in this aspect of the game.
Right now i build a stack of 15 hippos rhinos and giraffes, then use the editor to magically polymorph them into 15 sheep, goats and kangaroos (providing my civ would theoretically be able to breed them). Then i help out the AI with free subdued animals too.

Concerning animals to place a bonus on the map. I've tried that several times but i've never succeeded. I don't know if that is just very low odds or is bugged.

The functionality of the animal 'use function' seems to be perfect, have not encountered any bugs creating herds or cages ever =).

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

You can't place an animal resource on a plot that has a resource on it already even if that resource is not visible to you yet. Just like the Great Farmer.

Where you can place a bonus will depend on your tech level and the terrain the animal prefers. I think all will go onto grassland or plains without forest to start with. There is a 100% chance that it works. If you have the correct tech you will also get an improvement on the plot.

Horse, Cow, Sheep, Donkey, Camel, Llama and Pig are in the code.

 

[sunrisereader]

Would it not be simpler to add a herder unit that can add any herd you have in another city to a city instead of one tamed version of each animal. Or add it later in the tech tree a easy way to spread herds in the late game.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Dart Frog Must give poison again! Depending upon snakes only just does not cut it.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Dart Frog Must give poison again! Depending upon snakes only just does not cut it.

As far as I know it still does via the Amphibian Pond.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Dart Frog Must give poison again! Depending upon snakes only just does not cut it.

At some point poison will take on deeper dimension. Dart frogs and snakes won't be all. BTW, even now you can also, if lucky enough, potentially get a mushroom type building or two that can provide for the poison prereqs.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Dart frogs and snakes won't be all. BTW, even now you can also, if lucky enough, potentially get a mushroom type building or two that can provide for the poison prereqs.

Just not enough "...if lucky enough, potentially get..." in the game to be of any real usage.

As far as I know it still does via the Amphibian Pond.

1. Way too late in the game, and
2. I don't think it does anymore

Dart frogs have not given any poison since before v37 release, iirc. And snakes are now too much hit and miss. Unless it's been changed so that only 1 Empire can have poison, like the bear riders etc.. I sure Hope Not.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Just not enough "...if lucky enough, potentially get..." in the game to be of any real usage.

Yeah currently. I have a few plans in the works that would ease up on that infrequency but not to the point of overwhelming access.

Unless it's been changed so that only 1 Empire can have poison, like the bear riders etc.. I sure Hope Not.

Not to my knowledge. I think DH also found and corrected a problem that was making the Amphibian Enclosure impossible to get or something.

 

[Harrier]

I think DH also found and corrected a problem that was making the Amphibian Enclosure impossible to get or something.

It is easy to get - but what benefit does it give? I have built it in a lot of games - but not seen (or missed) any benefit.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

It provides poison.

 

[Thunderbrd]

It provides poison.

It should. Does it still? Have we confirmed that?

 

[raxo2222]

It is easy to check in seviopedia what gives poison - go to map bonuses om sevopedia and find poison there.

 

[Rmi]

The amphibian pond gives poison.
To get it you need a carnival AND a frog which are not common spawns.
By the time you do, it shouldn't matter anymore.

Snakes are common enough that you will get a venomous one eventually. You need 2 snakes, but only 1 venomous. A python can provide the snake charmer but not the snake pit.
The trick is to NOT kill any snakes until you get a decent subdue rate, and DO NOT 'myth' them till you have built your snake pit.

Poison is a ridiculously powerful bonus +10-25% and the sooner you get it the better.
It's even a lot easier to get than DYE, which only gives a +5%.

IMHO, the entire promotion section could use an overhaul; clean up a few things you'd never ever take and streamline and nerf some incredibly strong ones.
Not a top priority though, it works and is flavorful.

 

[Thunderbrd]

IMHO, the entire promotion section could use an overhaul; clean up a few things you'd never ever take and streamline and nerf some incredibly strong ones.
Not a top priority though, it works and is flavorful.

That overhaul is a project to come when I've got us prepped to really go into equipment promotions. This has become one of those top of the mountain type projects that has proven to require a tremendous and unexpected volume of other tasks to prepare us for it. It really is amazing how much. The current building audit project is a big part of that too. I had to do that to setup a huge restructuring to the supply building setup soon to ensue. That needs to happen before equipment.

There are a huge amount of promotion changes, both in skill promos and equipment promos, that will change dramatically once that happens because right now there's a lot of bleedover between the two worlds. And the Disease and Poison systems also play a large role in all this so those systems have had to be perfected and there's still a lot of work on the table for that too.

On top of all this, another major peg in the vision here will be to get the new traits into xml and a lot of the current building audit stuff plays into that, along with finalizing some adjustments to the tech tree.

One thing leads to another...

 

[Rmi]

Ah yes, the weaponry / equipment system looks promising. I assumed the goal is a 'combat triangle' of sorts, like the 'fire emblem' games for example.

I have not activated the global disease mechanics yet. I thought they were still mostly a work in progress as it says next to that option.
Is that mod stable and fair gameplay now?

Anyways, love the work you do =)