Suggestions and Requests

[Zaddy]

While I realize your release candidate is feature complete and will almost certainly not feature any changes to gameplay mechanics, I would like to talk a little bit about civics balance that could be changed in the next version, if any of my arguments prove persuasive. There are a few civics which, in my opinion, could use love.

Conquest, current effect:

-50% growth for cottages
+2 experience for all land units

Conquest, proposed effect:

-50% growth for cottages
+2 experience for all land units
+50% from city conquest (taken from Tributaries civic)

To me, additional rewards for conquering cities seems to be more fit on a "Conquest" civic as opposed to a Tributaries civic. The current Conquest civic, while having some fringe use, is not typically, to me, a very useful civic. I say as someone who absolutely LOVES painting the map my color. In fact, in games of mass conquest, I find Tributaries to be an entirely more useful civic, simply because of the additional gold you receive helping fund your empire. It feels odd to me that as, say, Ottomans, Mughals, or really any nation that has a desire to conquer territory, one would much rather run Tributaries and profit massively from the conquest of cities. If you feel this juices up Conquest too much, you could certainly increase the cottage penalty to compensate.

I have brainstormed a little bit and come up with what I feel is a replacement effect for Tributaries that, while definitely tones down the civic, is still useful:

Tributaries, current effect:

+1 in capital for each vassal city
+50% from city conquest

Tributaries, proposed effect:

+1 in capital for each vassal city
Can demand resources from vassals without vassal rebelling

Currently, demanding resources from vassals is basically a button to break the vassalization; I have never seen the AI actually accept a demand for a resource from me, even when I subjugated them literally the same turn. Without fail, they simply DOW you. With this new effect, it would now feel like you actually extracting "tribute" from vassals, in addition to the extra commerce.

I otherwise feel the expansion civics are quite well balanced, and all are conditionally usable and provide palpable diversity of game experience.


---


There is, however, two other civics who I feel are fairly weak compared to their competitors in their respective columns: Ideology, and Totalitarianism. Firstly, I'd like to take a look at Ideology:

Ideology, current effect:

+50% Great General emergence
+1 from Town
+1 from Broadcast Tower, News Press

My understanding of the civic is that the government relies on an ideology (i.e. Marxism, Fascism, etc.) to provide the state legitimacy in lieu of things such as a constitution. My issue with the civic is that it provides nearly no benefit to Marxist or Socialist "ideologies" (i.e. the adoption of Central Planning or Public Welfare in game). Neither of these civics will be using terribly many cottages, and they certainly won't want to be paired with the Individualism civic that makes cottages really worth building, and ergo subsequently will have issues even growing cottages to the point that they can gain the +1 from town, as they will be lacking the extra cottage growth from Individualism. The happiness benefit is minuscule and is conditional on building two fairly expensive buildings, one of which doesn't come until well after you can adopt Ideology. The extra great general birth rate is neat and flavorful, but is really not all that strong, even with Brandenburg Gate.

Ergo, for most civs, the only reason they would want to adopt Ideology is for the +1 from Town. Now, this effect is powerful, but I don't feel it competes with the 100% Birth Rate of Constitution, not to mention that the civic that wants you to build lots of cottages and helps you grow them (Individualism) does not provide any stability bonus from being paired with Ideology, while Constitution provides that with Individualism. While Constitution provides additional stability from being paired with several other excellent civics (Democracy, Individualism, Egalitarianism), Ideology's lone stability synergy is with Totalitarianism, and is it entirely by coincidence that I also consider Totalitarianism the weakest late-game civic choice in it's column?

All this leads to me having never taken Ideology as a civic, as I am either not building cottages and ergo the civic is near-objectively inferior to any of the other options in the column, or I am building cottages, but the (highly conditional) production boost is not worth the loss of more Great People (and ergo Golden Ages) and the loss of civic stability.

I'll post later after brainstorming for a bit on what I feel should replace Ideology's current effects, and discuss my issues with Totalitarianism then as well. I'd like to see what the community thinks of my discussed civics, and whether they find them balanced, as well as see if Leoreth believes my arguments enough to spend his limited development time doing some balance changes.

Cheers.

 

[Tigranes]

Currently, demanding resources from vassals is basically a button to break the vassalization; I have never seen the AI actually accept a demand for a resource from me, even when I subjugated them literally the same turn. Without fail, they simply DOW you. With this new effect, it would now feel like you actually extracting "tribute" from vassals, in addition to the extra commerce.

That's not true, I demand resources all the time and if my power is much larger than their they never dare to rebel. Also good attitude helps. But in general I like your proposed changes. Yes conquest must provide immediate looting, tributaries long term tributes.

 

[Leoreth]

While I realize your release candidate is feature complete and will almost certainly not feature any changes to gameplay mechanics, I would like to talk a little bit about civics balance that could be changed in the next version, if any of my arguments prove persuasive. There are a few civics which, in my opinion, could use love.

Conquest, current effect:

-50% growth for cottages
+2 experience for all land units

Conquest, proposed effect:

-50% growth for cottages
+2 experience for all land units
+50% from city conquest (taken from Tributaries civic)

To me, additional rewards for conquering cities seems to be more fit on a "Conquest" civic as opposed to a Tributaries civic. The current Conquest civic, while having some fringe use, is not typically, to me, a very useful civic. I say as someone who absolutely LOVES painting the map my color. In fact, in games of mass conquest, I find Tributaries to be an entirely more useful civic, simply because of the additional gold you receive helping fund your empire. It feels odd to me that as, say, Ottomans, Mughals, or really any nation that has a desire to conquer territory, one would much rather run Tributaries and profit massively from the conquest of cities. If you feel this juices up Conquest too much, you could certainly increase the cottage penalty to compensate.

I have brainstormed a little bit and come up with what I feel is a replacement effect for Tributaries that, while definitely tones down the civic, is still useful:

Tributaries, current effect:

+1 in capital for each vassal city
+50% from city conquest

Tributaries, proposed effect:

+1 in capital for each vassal city
Can demand resources from vassals without vassal rebelling

Currently, demanding resources from vassals is basically a button to break the vassalization; I have never seen the AI actually accept a demand for a resource from me, even when I subjugated them literally the same turn. Without fail, they simply DOW you. With this new effect, it would now feel like you actually extracting "tribute" from vassals, in addition to the extra commerce.

I otherwise feel the expansion civics are quite well balanced, and all are conditionally usable and provide palpable diversity of game experience.


---


There is, however, two other civics who I feel are fairly weak compared to their competitors in their respective columns: Ideology, and Totalitarianism. Firstly, I'd like to take a look at Ideology:

Ideology, current effect:

+50% Great General emergence
+1 from Town
+1 from Broadcast Tower, News Press

My understanding of the civic is that the government relies on an ideology (i.e. Marxism, Fascism, etc.) to provide the state legitimacy in lieu of things such as a constitution. My issue with the civic is that it provides nearly no benefit to Marxist or Socialist "ideologies" (i.e. the adoption of Central Planning or Public Welfare in game). Neither of these civics will be using terribly many cottages, and they certainly won't want to be paired with the Individualism civic that makes cottages really worth building, and ergo subsequently will have issues even growing cottages to the point that they can gain the +1 from town, as they will be lacking the extra cottage growth from Individualism. The happiness benefit is minuscule and is conditional on building two fairly expensive buildings, one of which doesn't come until well after you can adopt Ideology. The extra great general birth rate is neat and flavorful, but is really not all that strong, even with Brandenburg Gate.

Ergo, for most civs, the only reason they would want to adopt Ideology is for the +1 from Town. Now, this effect is powerful, but I don't feel it competes with the 100% Birth Rate of Constitution, not to mention that the civic that wants you to build lots of cottages and helps you grow them (Individualism) does not provide any stability bonus from being paired with Ideology, while Constitution provides that with Individualism. While Constitution provides additional stability from being paired with several other excellent civics (Democracy, Individualism, Egalitarianism), Ideology's lone stability synergy is with Totalitarianism, and is it entirely by coincidence that I also consider Totalitarianism the weakest late-game civic choice in it's column?

All this leads to me having never taken Ideology as a civic, as I am either not building cottages and ergo the civic is near-objectively inferior to any of the other options in the column, or I am building cottages, but the (highly conditional) production boost is not worth the loss of more Great People (and ergo Golden Ages) and the loss of civic stability.

I'll post later after brainstorming for a bit on what I feel should replace Ideology's current effects, and discuss my issues with Totalitarianism then as well. I'd like to see what the community thinks of my discussed civics, and whether they find them balanced, as well as see if Leoreth believes my arguments enough to spend his limited development time doing some balance changes.

Cheers.

Thanks for this detailed and well reasoned post, I overall agree with your analysis of the weaknesses of Conquest and Ideology and how they lead to thematically inappropriate player choices. Especially for your Tributaries/Conquest post I have seen a lot of player feedback that makes Tributaries look like the better choice for expansionistic empires which is definitely not intended.

Right now however I don't want to change anything more about civics before release, and will just accept that these flaws exist in that version. Messing with civics usually means that once you start changing one civic, you also need to change others and everything unravels. This is especially true because the possible effects are already spread thin so much. I already had the plan to revisit some other loose ends of the civics roster during 1.16 though, so I welcome every further discussion that I can then take into account at that point.

Some things to account for:
- I think Tributaries should give some other benefit that is unrelated to having vassals
- I am open to changes to Ideology but please also account for where the current effects should go. For example, if +1 production for Towns should be replaced (which is a reasonable suggestion), there should be somewhere for it to go
- if you have ideas for Totalitarianism in comparison with the other Society civics I am all ears

 

[Zaddy]

Thanks for this detailed and well reasoned post, I overall agree with your analysis of the weaknesses of Conquest and Ideology and how they lead to thematically inappropriate player choices. Especially for your Tributaries/Conquest post I have seen a lot of player feedback that makes Tributaries look like the better choice for expansionistic empires which is definitely not intended.

Right now however I don't want to change anything more about civics before release, and will just accept that these flaws exist in that version. Messing with civics usually means that once you start changing one civic, you also need to change others and everything unravels. This is especially true because the possible effects are already spread thin so much. I already had the plan to revisit some other loose ends of the civics roster during 1.16 though, so I welcome every further discussion that I can then take into account at that point.

Some things to account for:
- I think Tributaries should give some other benefit that is unrelated to having vassals
- I am open to changes to Ideology but please also account for where the current effects should go. For example, if +1 production for Towns should be replaced (which is a reasonable suggestion), there should be somewhere for it to go
- if you have ideas for Totalitarianism in comparison with the other Society civics I am all ears

I'm happy to help. I understand wanting to keep the feature freeze in place; there's always going to be just one more thing to change otherwise.

I interpret the +1 from town as a kind of mass-mobilization and energizing of common people behind the chosen ideology. I like this thematically and think it fits well with the civic. There's a few effects that could represent this phenomenon, like the +1 per specialist currently allotted to Central Planning, but I feel adding the hammers to improvements (ie the common person) as opposed to specialists (part of the "elite" of the country) is more thematic. You could argue that the +1 from town could be appropriate on Individualism, but I feel Individualism is already very very strong, and it certainly does not need a buff.

This might be too much, but... (Changes/Additions in Bold)

Ideology:

Medium Upkeep (from Low)
+1 from Town
+1 from Farm
+1 from Workshop
+1 from News Press, Broadcast Tower
Add stability bonus when paired with Individualism, Central Planning.

... yeah, I think I'm probably being a bit liberal with the buffs here, but I have my logic:

- the +1 hammer from Farm I will acknowledge is very powerful. I think it fits thematically very well though, again going back to the mass-mobilization aspect that I want to represent.
- the +1 from Workshop is honestly me trying to throw a bone to Central Planning, because I feel workshops are generally a pretty weak improvement now that Central Planning doesn't give them food.
- I think the +1 from the buildings is very flavorful and I'd like to keep that effect, even if it isn't particularly strong.
- The stability bonus from Individualism and Central Planning fits the theme of the state encouraging the promulgation of an official ideology in order to foster support for the regime.
- The increase in upkeep represents the amount of work needed to promulgate an official ideology throughout the state apparatus and is an attempt to tone the civic down a little bit.

I understand if you feel that this is too strong. I think I would tend to agree, and that stuff is negotiable. Honestly the commerce from workshops is not really needed at all.


edit: accidentally hit enter too soon Will add more!

 

[Tigranes]

Two suggestions if I may:

1. I. With human Rome AI Carthage should get walls and more defenders, otherwise even with a very bad luck humans can finish glorious puny Punic civilization (pun intended ) on turn two: (1)load Legions into Galleys, (2) attack two puny Archers while Carthaginian Elephant is roaming in Sahara. I suggest walls upon founding and few Numidian Horsemen (normally reserved to Barbarians but please make an exception because Numidians were hired by Hannibal) in addition to two Elephants. That was Cavalry can do the exploring of Africa while Elephants will help Archers to guard new capital. Otherwise instead of 3 Punic wars and maybe even some cool Hannibal event in future (why do Greeks and Romans get events but Carthaginians don't?) --- our v 1.5 will have no Phoenicians on turn 2.

II. We have many cool Barbarian only units, like Numidian Cav. But why let crazy Barbarian AI have all the fun with them? Please allow humans and AI who run Republic to occasionally "hire" any defeated Barbarian unit within their cultural borders. Instead of dying unique Barbarian units must have a chance to join the civilization that defeated them! It will be so cool to occasionally play with all those units that appear with historical adjectives in all the right places. We really should see Numidian Cavalry serving Carthage or even Rome (they hired them) or Turkic Warriors servinc Arabic Caliphate (they were called Ghulam or slave warriors for a reason).

 

[Leoreth]

I'm happy to help. I understand wanting to keep the feature freeze in place; there's always going to be just one more thing to change otherwise.

I interpret the +1 from town as a kind of mass-mobilization and energizing of common people behind the chosen ideology. I like this thematically and think it fits well with the civic. There's a few effects that could represent this phenomenon, like the +1 per specialist currently allotted to Central Planning, but I feel adding the hammers to improvements (ie the common person) as opposed to specialists (part of the "elite" of the country) is more thematic. You could argue that the +1 from town could be appropriate on Individualism, but I feel Individualism is already very very strong, and it certainly does not need a buff.

This might be too much, but... (Changes/Additions in Bold)

Ideology:

Medium Upkeep (from Low)
+1 from Town
+1 from Farm
+1 from Workshop
+1 from News Press, Broadcast Tower
Add stability bonus when paired with Individualism, Central Planning.

... yeah, I think I'm probably being a bit liberal with the buffs here, but I have my logic:

- the +1 hammer from Farm I will acknowledge is very powerful. I think it fits thematically very well though, again going back to the mass-mobilization aspect that I want to represent.
- the +1 from Workshop is honestly me trying to throw a bone to Central Planning, because I feel workshops are generally a pretty weak improvement now that Central Planning doesn't give them food.
- I think the +1 from the buildings is very flavorful and I'd like to keep that effect, even if it isn't particularly strong.
- The stability bonus from Individualism and Central Planning fits the theme of the state encouraging the promulgation of an official ideology in order to foster support for the regime.
- The increase in upkeep represents the amount of work needed to promulgate an official ideology throughout the state apparatus and is an attempt to tone the civic down a little bit.

I understand if you feel that this is too strong. I think I would tend to agree, and that stuff is negotiable. Honestly the commerce from workshops is not really needed at all.


edit: accidentally hit enter too soon Will add more!

Some thoughts here:
- I think the low maintenance for Ideology is definitely a feature, as it should be your go to empire civic to drive down costs (as with Totalitarianism). We shouldn't deviate from that as it encourages large modern empires adopting Vassalage instead.
- Workshop food is a good point. I didn't use that effect anymore because when civics were designed, workshops didn't have -1 food like they have now again. Maybe I should consider changing civics after all, this is a very important aspect.
- General rate should stay with Ideology or go somewhere else at least. Actually I thought about buffing it to 100%. If Constitution can have it for all GPs it surely isn't too much for generals.
- Maybe production for Towns should go to Nationalism? The civic could use an economic effect besides the niche Fort bonus.
- Actually I also had considered production on Farms for Vassalage as a replacement for the food to production mechanic. Just throwing that out here.

Another idea: I have recently listened to a podcast about the French Revolution and that made me think about renaming Ideology to Revolutionary. It roughly covers the same scope of historical regimes (in particular Communist and arguably Fascist states), but is less vague in its meaning and also more sensibly includes stuff like revolutionary France (duh) and Bolivarian governments in South America. It's also a more direct contrast to Constitutionalism: the one is about rules, norms and constancy while the other is about the continual state of emergency and change (real or doctrinal).

About Tributaries, maybe it should also give a bonus related to independent cities? Like enabling trade with them, or some bonus for every independent city that borders your empire? Would be nice to have a mechanic that encourages leaving them alive.

Two suggestions if I may:

1. I. With human Rome AI Carthage should get walls and more defenders, otherwise even with a very bad luck humans can finish glorious puny Punic civilization (pun intended ) on turn two: (1)load Legions into Galleys, (2) attack two puny Archers while Carthaginian Elephant is roaming in Sahara. I suggest walls upon founding and few Numidian Horsemen (normally reserved to Barbarians but please make an exception because Numidians were hired by Hannibal) in addition to two Elephants. That was Cavalry can do the exploring of Africa while Elephants will help Archers to guard new capital. Otherwise instead of 3 Punic wars and maybe even some cool Hannibal event in future (why do Greeks and Romans get events but Carthaginians don't?) --- our v 1.5 will have no Phoenicians on turn 2.

I'll look into it for the defenders, but Carthage does not get conquerors because they weren't successful. The idea behind conquerors is to ensure a historical course of events.

II. We have many cool Barbarian only units, like Numidian Cav. But why let crazy Barbarian AI have all the fun with them? Please allow humans and AI who run Republic to occasionally "hire" any defeated Barbarian unit within their cultural borders. Instead of dying unique Barbarian units must have a chance to join the civilization that defeated them! It will be so cool to occasionally play with all those units that appear with historical adjectives in all the right places. We really should see Numidian Cavalry serving Carthage or even Rome (they hired them) or Turkic Warriors servinc Arabic Caliphate (they were called Ghulam or slave warriors for a reason).

Yeah, I also thought about hiring non-standard units. One thing I considered is to associate certain units with certain regions (e.g. Numidian Cavalry with the Maghreb region) like SoI does. You would then be able to hire them in those cities only. Likewise, I thought about allowing hiring UUs of other civs if its their majority culture.

The only problem with this is that the game only allows to produce one unit type per class. So if you can build a UU, you cannot build the base unit.

 

[Tigranes]

About Tributaries, maybe it should also give a bonus related to independent cities? Like enabling trade with them, or some bonus for every independent city that borders your empire? Would be nice to have a mechanic that encourages leaving them alive.

I really like this thought, time and again I keep thinking why war is the only option in dealing with independents? At the end of the day there were always more independent states than mega empires. For example as Arabia I always spare Tushpa which reminds me of Armenia, when I expand . But I can do nothing to them. To make it more interesting -- one should send a spy into that city and then pop a dialog pertaining to that city only: ask for tribute (the amount of total commerce made by that city, ask for resource that Indy city works, or offer hefty bribe to local corrupt leader convincing him to join your empire peacefully. There should be 50% chance for them to refuse, kill your spy and get one extra defender as citizens mobilize for possible war -- without declaring it though because same Indy holds cities all across the world.

I'll look into it for the defenders, but Carthage does not get conquerors because they weren't successful. The idea behind conquerors is to ensure a historical course of events.

Yes please, at least make it harder for human Rome to finish their archrival on turn two.

Yeah, I also thought about hiring non-standard units. One thing I considered is to associate certain units with certain regions (e.g. Numidian Cavalry with the Maghreb region) like SoI does. You would then be able to hire them in those cities only. Likewise, I thought about allowing hiring UUs of other civs if its their majority culture.

The only problem with this is that the game only allows to produce one unit type per class. So if you can build a UU, you cannot build the base unit.

That's why I proposed to make it luck based -- defeating Barbarian units under some civics produce death, under some -- Slaves, yet under another -- flips barbarian to your side (very wounded though to encourage healing and adaptation to your norms).

 

[Visard]

Conquest shouldn't slow cottages, only hamlets and villages, so it could be used in early game.
Conquest would actually be useful for aggressive civs if it decreases the razing penalty,
either when you raze a city or as a constant effect (50% faster decrease rate).

 

[Steb]

I second the suggestion to buff Carthage a little. They really don't accomplish much right now. That's fine for realistic historical outcomes, but it also makes them rather boring to interact with.

 

[Leoreth]

Buffs are alright, I'm only against spawning Hannibal at the Alps or something like that.

 

[1SDANi]

I definitely think +1 Prod to Farms would be a much better ability for Vassalage than the current "Can't grow while producing military units" "bonus"

If Central Planning gave food to Workshops, I think I'd use it for more than an ironically communist America.

PLEASE PLEASE GIVE +1 Prod to Towns TO NATIONALISM! It's a good civic, but it's really only useful for having a modern civic to avoid penalties or mobilizing a bunch of Defensive Gunpower units. Giving Prod to Towns would give it so much more use.

While we're talking about Civics, does anyone find Republic useful? I'm playing a Carthage game and the -1 Food from Farms made it so that I ran Despotism for all but 5 turns of the early (pre-Democracy) game. Those 5 turns in question were only to rush out enough Atlas Elephants to repel the Roman Conqueror event. It has no use in early game, and is harmful late game. I've yet to have more than 2 or 3 Specialists in my cities early game and the lowered Food from Farms makes them useless on tiles without a Farm resource until late game. I don't care about the other -1 Food effects, but -1 Food to Farms kills the civic for me.

 

[Leoreth]

Okay then so how about:
- Vassalage: +1 production per Farm
- Central Planning: old school +1 food per Workshop, Watermill
- Ideology: +1 production per Workshop, Lumbermill
- Nationalism: +1 production per Town

 

[1SDANi]

Okay then so how about:
- Vassalage: +1 production per Farm
- Central Planning: old school +1 food per Workshop, Watermill
- Ideology: +1 production per Workshop, Lumbermill
- Nationalism: +1 production per Town

That would be amazing.

 

[Tigranes]

While we're talking about Civics, does anyone find Republic useful? I'm playing a Carthage game and the -1 Food from Farms made it so that I ran Despotism for all but 5 turns of the early (pre-Democracy) game. Those 5 turns in question were only to rush out enough Atlas Elephants to repel the Roman Conqueror event. It has no use in early game, and is harmful late game. I've yet to have more than 2 or 3 Specialists in my cities early game and the lowered Food from Farms makes them useless on tiles without a Farm resource until late game. I don't care about the other -1 Food effects, but -1 Food to Farms kills the civic for me.

Thankfully seafood is not affected and maritime republic is very useful. Especially for Greece , Carthage and Rome. Also how can you use Carthage's UP without Republic?

 

[1SDANi]

A couple of shower thoughts about the early game unit lines: Obviously more of 1.6 and beyond considerations than 1.5 ones, for obvious reasons.

Would the AI be able to handle a merged scout and skirmisher line? The lines don't seem to overlap anywhere, it would give America a Skirmisher unit for the Revolution which adds some nice historical flair, it'd give Old World nations something to do with their scouts after they are done exploring with scouts, it would give more use to the scout line for human players, who typically know the map well enough to not need a scout, and it would fill that weird inconsistency where Skirmishers are a classical era unit even though from what I've read skirmishing was one of the earliest tactics in warfare. My main concern with balancing this would be the AI, would there be any issues in that regard?

While the previous thought was more of a "interesting idea shower thought", this is more of a "why is this a thing shower thought". Why are Swordsmen and Spearmen separate lines? Putting aside the fact that swords were never used in warfare in a major capacity, I've never seen a use for Spearmen outside of fighting the majority Heavy Cavalry nations.

Would it be OP if we merged the two lines into a single Spearman line? Obviously there would be tech tree issues, but I really don't see why City Attack and Heavy Cavalry Counter should be two separate lines.

The Archery line is City Defense and Light Cavalry Counter.
Skirmishers are Collateral, Withdraw and Rough Terrain Counter.
Light Cavalry are Withdraw, High Movement, and Open Terrain Counter.
Heavy Cavalry are High Movement and Siege Counter.
Siege are Collateral, Withdraw, and City Counter

But then we get to
Swordsmen who are purely City Counter.
And Spearmen who are purely Heavy Cavalry Counter

Why is this?

Thankfully seafood is not affected and maritime republic is very useful. Especially for Greece , Carthage and Rome. Also how can you use Carthage's UP without Republic?

I mainly didn't use it because I settled Carthage, Iol, and Oea as my core cities, and there are two wheats on the Maghreb, in addition to a single farm pre-irrigation and 4 farms post-irrigation. I found that I much rather the 3 and later 6 Food given by the Farms than the 1-3 food given by specialists. It just didn't make sense to run specialists when I could be working Food tiles to grow into a bigger and more profitable city.

As for how I used Carthage's UP without Republic, I didn't. As I said, I ran Republic for a total of about 5 turns. I played the game until right before Rome got conquerors and then I switched to Republic, rushed out a bunch of Atlas Elephants, and switched back. I never actually conquered Rome, I just waited for it to collapse and then picked up the pieces.

I'm currently at 1936 and have Turkey, Portugal, Netherlands, France, and Spain as my Vassals. So I think I did pretty well.

 

[Zaddy]

Okay then so how about:
- Vassalage: +1 production per Farm
- Central Planning: old school +1 food per Workshop, Watermill
- Ideology: +1 production per Workshop, Lumbermill
- Nationalism: +1 production per Town

I think Vassalage having +1 Production on Farm would be a great bonus.

I feel like the extra food Central Planning used to give was very fun and I miss that mechanic. I'd welcome it's return. Right now, Central Planning struggles hard to compete with Public Welfare or Free Enterprise.

On Ideology, how about this:

Revolution (or Radicalism):

Low Upkeep

No unrest in newly conquered cities
+100% Great General Emergence
Great Generals may undertake Great Statesmen actions
+1 from Workshops

OR

Revolution:

Low Upkeep

+10% in cities per Pleased (or Friendly?) civ with the same economic (or government?) civics
No unrest in newly conquered cities
100% Great General Emergence
Great Generals can undertake Great Statesmen actions

Just throwing some ideas out there.

 

[Zaddy]

Also, I realized I didn't actually provide any reasoning for my proposed effects for the Revolution/Radicalism civic. Here's my thinking:

-No unrest in newly conquered cities is a pretty useful effect which is applicable to many civs, and fits the rapid expansion of, say, revolutionary France, and the establishment of "client states" etc.

-+100% Great General Emergence is buffed from +50%, because as Leoreth said, Constitution gives 100%, and great generals are arguably the weakest of the Great People anyways.

-The Great General as statesmen represents Latin American and African strongmen setting up governments that rely to a great extent on revolutionary or radical rhetoric. Think Mugabe. This also allows a neat interaction where a civ can revolt into Revolution and then use the Great General's newfound ability to Resolve Crisis to end the anarchy immediately. No better way to represent a coup than that, I would think.

-The +1 from workshops, when combined with a potential +1 from Central Planning, would really make this civic worth running to Marxist civs.

-The additional commerce from similar-civic civs I think fits quite well, even if it is quite awkward on wording. The specifics could be worked out, but really just any bonus from Pleased/Friendly civs with similar civics would be pretty cool IMO; it gives players a good incentive to make nice with their communist/democratic/capitalist/whatever brothers, and encourages players to care about the civics others are running, which is somewhat absent from the game right now. Not even really sure if this is possible to stick on a civic though. I believe the effects you can put on civics is a bit limited, is it not?

Still having to think about Totalitarianism. I will say that I think the gameplay it encourages (beat up on your cities and really abuse them for everything they're worth) is really cool, but I think the actual "reward" is a bit weak. But in general, I like the idea of making unhappiness matter less and I want to keep that in any change to Totalitarianism.

 

[Imperator Knoedel]

-The additional commerce from similar-civic civs I think fits quite well, even if it is quite awkward on wording. The specifics could be worked out, but really just any bonus from Pleased/Friendly civs with similar civics would be pretty cool IMO; it gives players a good incentive to make nice with their communist/democratic/capitalist/whatever brothers, and encourages players to care about the civics others are running, which is somewhat absent from the game right now. Not even really sure if this is possible to stick on a civic though. I believe the effects you can put on civics is a bit limited, is it not?

In Planetfall trade routes to civs that share your favorite civic give more commerce, perhaps we could steal and adapt that?

 

[Tigranes]

In Planetfall trade routes to civs that share your favorite civic give more commerce, perhaps we could steal and adapt that?

One of the things that I would like to be reflected as how the trade roads often feed the cities, not just nearby farms. Let's say you run Republic as Rome -- than any internal city that has trade route with Rome should also supply capital with some food, which will be deducted at colony and added to the capital.

 

[1SDANi]

One of the things that I would like to be reflected as how the trade roads often feed the cities, not just nearby farms. Let's say you run Republic as Rome -- than any internal city that has trade route with Rome should also supply capital with some food, which will be deducted at colony and added to the capital.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Trade Routes should be expanded HUGE proportion! Cities should gain access to resources through trade routes, and said resources should affect the yield, yields should flow through trade routes (would also disincentive making OP Agreements with your enemies).

Both cities' culture spreads through trade routes in the forms of Books, Plays, etc.
Science spreads through trade routes in the forms of tools that can be reverse engineered, innovative philosophies, etc.

Etc