SUL4: Training Day for Emperors

[Ridgelake]

Sulla, one of the ideas that I have about the next city is in the grassland area near St. Petersburg. The exact spot would be one spot due west of the hill. This would give us 3 bonus grasslands and would allow us to put more culture preasure on St. Petes. I am also thinking that there is a decent chance of more spices being available as they seem to run in packs. This location might grab some after a cultural expansion, or provide a springboard for another city to the southeast.

The downsides that I can see would be the distance from the capital. and potential of ticking off Russia. Also, it is possible that we might lose out on the spot by the wheat. But we dont know if anyone else knows about that spot yet.

Now that I look at the map again, I am guessing that Moscow is maybe 4 spaces due south of St. Pete. This could make culture flipping St. Pete tough.

I also noticed the little piece of land in the very bottom right corner of the picure. Another continent perhaps? Or a continuation of our lands bending around that way?

What are your thoughts about these subjects?

 

[Ihmotep]

The warrior did scout

He went to the 2 squares to the south of St. Petes to see if he could get around it. He found he couldn't so moved back and just happened to land where he started :/

 

[Sullla]

Arathorn - Without checking the save game I can't be certain, but I'm about 90% sure that that desert square is NOT on the river. A lot of the time when a river comes out of a mountain it looks like more tiles border the river than they actually do; maybe someone can open up the save game, click on that tile and see if it on the river or not?

Ridgelake - I like that site as well, but it's a bit close to Russia for my taste. If we don't build a temple there right away, it could possibly flip to them! It's your turn next though, so you get to make the decision.

Ihmotep - I didn't quite expect our scouting warrior to end up in exactly the same location! But IMO it would have made more sense to go west with the warrior since we already knew there was sea down by St. Petersbug. No big deal, in any case.

 

[Ridgelake]

Originally posted by Jbob42
i was also thinking that spot arathorn. Actually, it probably IS river, but NOT floodplain. this would make the disease rate lower, but more importantly it would elevate a desert square (normally 0 food) to 2 food (as all cities). It would also be less overlap.

It would also have allowed immediate access to irrigateable plains, at a loss of a hill, desert, and another overlapped tile. After the wheat and gold tile, those plains would be a decent way to continue to grow the city.

 

[Ridgelake]

Well, that space in question is not a river. So that ends the debate. Here is my report for the next 10 turns. I hope that they are not too

2550BC (0) Check the cites. As Sparta will produce a warrior next turn, I move production to all food. For Athens, I move to 2 foods and 1 forest. Growth in 2, settlers in 8.

I check the slider bar. We are unnecessarily paying luxuries. I move it to 2/8/0. Iron working due in 11. We get 2gpt. I consider 0/10/0. It would give us IW in 9, but 0gpt. We need a little bit of gold, so 2/8/0.

Diplo Check. Hammi has Mystcism and Warrior Code. We have the wheel and alphabet. I check Cathy. She has Mysticm and WC, but only needs Alpha. Since there is a fair chance that Cathy will send WC to Hammi, I trade the Wheel for Warrior Code and 6 gp. I notice that both nations only have 1 city available for trade.

2510BC (1) Sparta builds a warrior. I cue up another warrior for MP duty and additional scouting. I consider both a barracks and a worker. We don’t need a barracks yet, and will wait til next size to make another worker here. I send the new warrior to the hill on the west. I will send him scouting over by the wheat. The first warrior tops the hill by St. Pete.

2470BC (2) I notice that St. Pete makes a settler/spear combo and they head back SW. Both Athens and Sparta grow this turn. I adjust the slider to 2/7/1 to keep the peace. I allocate the food and resources in Athens so that it will grow in 4, settlers in 5. After a couple more turns, I will try to switch it around so that the two correspond. Warriors move. Diplo check to look for workers. I notice that Hammi now has Masonry.

2430BC (3) We need a worker more than another warrior right now. I switch Sparta over.

2390BC (4) Sparta is hit by disease.

2350BC(5) Sparta down to size 1. Change back to a warrior.

2310BC (6) Athens grows and builds a settler in the same turn, so it is size 3 still. I allocate so that it will grow in 3 and build a worker in 3. I adjust the slider bar to 1/8/1. I send Sparta’s Hoplite to the southeast. I want to bust the fog over there.

2270BC (7) In looking for workers, I notice that Hammi has a 3rd city.

2230BC (8) The last warrior produced by Sparta makes its way to Athens for MP duty. This allows the slider bar to be set at 2/8/0. Iron working due in 2, 2gpt. Cathy has founded a third city. I saw the settler/spear combo head to the W/NW from St. Pete. I am pretty sure that it is in the fog area between our two scouting warriors.

2190BC (9) Worker produced in Athens. I line up another settler. With IW due up in 1 turn, I adjust the slider to 3/7/0. This will net us a grand total of 1 extra gold. Our pre-existing worker is moved to the gold. The new worker will irrigate the floodplain immediately SE of Sparta.

2150BC (10) Iron is revealed. We have some on the mountain 2 spaces south of Sparta. There is also some in Russian unclaimed land under our warrior/scout.

Slider re-adjusted to 2/8/0. Diplo check reveals that both Hammi and Cathy have masonry & mysticism. We have IW and Alphabet over them. I like ours better right now.

So ends the reign of Ridgelake I.

 

[Sullla]

Yeah, I KNEW that space wasn't on a river. I wouldn't have liked the current spot so much if that were the case. To those who thought it was on the river, this is why you always need to check by right-clicking on the space and checking to see if there is extra gold.

Critique for Ridgelake:
Turn0 - Going to max food for Sparta is a very nice move here; you avoided wasting a shield and gained several food in return. Following my recommendation for Athens was also a good idea. Your trade for Warrior Code was a very good move as well, as I also agree that the AI civs would have traded it with one another in short order. Even though Warrior Code is a cheap tech, it still saves us 4 turns of research, and in this case we got some gold as well. Excellent thinking process and choice.

Turn1 - I feel that warrior was the right choice, as we don't exactly need hoplites at this point. A barracks is still a bit premature in Sparta, since we don't need veteran units at this point. Watch out for one thing though: we want workers to come out of Athens, not Sparta, as Athens is growing faster than we can handle it anyway. Sparta will be where we build military for a while; first warriors for scouting and military police, and soon hoplites for defense. It will be a while before our 3rd and 4th cities (when they are even founded) become productive.

Turn2 - Adjusting the luxury rate to avoid disorder is a definite plus. As a result, we lose no production and can continue as scheduled. Everyone has to be able to do this regularly when playing on Emperor. Athens was on the correct tiles; although the game says 5 turns to finish the settler, it will actually finish it in 4 turns when it grows to the next size. That's why max growth is important; it allows us to get more tiles worked into play as soon as possible. This was the right choice here.

Turn4 - Sparta hit by disease? Well, it's out of our control. The upside of floodplains is that Sparta will grow right back to its former size.

Turn6 - Worker was probably the right call here from Athens; we certainly will need some to mine Sparta's hills and connect our new city when founded. Remember though that we don't have to time it so that the city grows at the same time it produces a worker; I'm not sure what kind of food/shields ratio we were on here, but in principle we would want food maximized again here. Moving the Hoplite out to fog-bust is an interesting move; I would probably rather have the barbarians at this stage of the game so I could get money from their camp. It's not a bad move, but generally I don't scout with defenders! Try to scout with warriors at this stage of the game because they are cheap and expendable.

Turn10 - Good use of changing the slider. If changes will benefit you, don't be afraid to change it as often as you like, even every turn if need be (though that is a rare occurance). We should consider trading Iron Working, or at least seeing what we can get for it, since the AI can see all resources anyway and it should be worth quite a lot at the moment. I would guess that we can easily get their two techs for it. The next player will have to look over this and see if the AI will offer a fair deal or not.

We will want to get those furs to our west online soon as well, maybe with the next settler out of Athens. Sending that settler out unescorted is risky; we need to get a warrior up to it as soon as possible for protection from barnarians. The next player gets to choose its city site, and there are some good ones with the two wheats up there. I also find it amusing that Athens, a size 3 city, is producing 13 food, enough to feed a city twice its size. Growing like a weed indeed. This was a really solid set of turns, as good as or better than what I would have done. Ridgelake is clearly a skilled player, and I'm sure he'll help anchor this group throughout this game.

 

[Sullla]

Due to Thunderfall's changing the forum around, the upload file feature is still not working. Therefore I'm attaching the map yet again.

 

[Ridgelake]

Originally posted by Sullla
Ridgelake is clearly a skilled player, and I'm sure he'll help anchor this group throughout this game.

Sulla, dont be so sure on this one On my own, I have only effectively won on Chieftan and Warlord. I have not taken a Regent or higher game into the Middle Ages.

Thanks for uploading the map. I tried for quite some time to figure out how to take the picture. For some reason, printscreen was not working..........

As far as future moves and things that we should consider:

1) We should put a road on the forest tile above Athens. It is constantly in production. This will give us an additional 1gpt. As it stands right now, Athens can go settler/settler/settler, ad infinitum every 8 turns. It should do this.

2) We should get Athens' next settler to grab the iron. This will give us the ability to make an offensive force. (Swordsmen). The fogbusting hoplite can be its defender.

3) We should give serious consideration to going to war with the Russians. If nothing else, we can grab St. Pete to get the horses and silks.

4) An alternate way to get some silks would be to place a settler in the first row of jungle, right next to the silk SW of St. Pete. It could use the 2 BGs, depending on where the iron city is placed.

5) With a city on the west coast, near the fish and furs, on a desert spot, we could block off the Russian's expansion to the northern part of the continent. We may have to get a temple to expand our borders to fully accomplish this task though.

6) Consider sending Sparta's warrior under contruction up north to fog bust the remaining area on our continent. This warrior will also serve as MP in the new city by the wheat.

Questions: 1) Would it be appropriate to put together a dot map? I have never made one myself. At the same time, I don't want to be overbearing on this game.

2) Do we really want to trade ironworking? Do we want the Babs to start making Immortals? Do we want the Russians to get an offensive force that can match our Hoplites? I know that they will get it eventually, but perhaps we can make use of the iron before our competitors can use it.

Ridge

 

[LKendter]

The Babs to make immortals

Last I knew, Persia could to that

 

[Sullla]

At the moment we have 2 warriors and 1 hoplite. We're not going to war anytime soon

Since we're not going to war anytime soon, the iron isn't that high of a priority. It should be in our borders by culture soon anyway. Russia is not going to attack us anytime soon; aren't they fighting Babylon anyway? I have been most successful in Civ3 when I expanded peacefully early on; I do NOT like early wars because they are highly dependent on luck. I'd really rather not chance it anytime soon. Remember, we the player are more intelligent than the AI, and the longer the game goes on the more our advantage will start to show. Early in the game is when the odds are most stacked against us; I'm going to strongly recommend against a war with Russia at this point. Slowing down our growth to build military is just not a good idea IMO. I can make up a dot map, but I'd like a little more knowledge of our surrounding territory before I do so. I'll try to do so after the next turn is played.

Sulla
Ihmotep
Ridgelake
MingTheMerciles <<< UP NOW
Ziggy <<< on deck

 

[Ridgelake]

Originally posted by LKendter
The Babs to make immortals

Last I knew, Persia could to that

Umm...good point LK

 

[Ridgelake]

Originally posted by Sullla
It (iron) should be in our borders by culture soon anyway.

Sulla, I dont think that it will be in our borders even if Sparta and Athens both expand once. And they wont be expanding any time soon until we get temples in there. For it to be absorbed with our current cities, Sparta would have to expand twice. This is obviously a long time in coming.......

 

[MingTheMerciles]

I'll play & post tonight when I get home.

Are we doing anything tech related that I should know about, beelining for literature (for GL) or anything along those lines. I didn't see anything in the thread other than play "follow the leader" and get the cheap ones.

 

[Sullla]

No, we are not planning on going for any wonders in the ancient age, especially not the Great Library. Instead of wasting 400 shields on that thing, you could just buy into the techs that are researched as a result of using that production on expansion and growth. The only time I like building the Great Library is in One City Challenge games.

 

[MingTheMerciles]

Turn Report

2110 - Exploring done, Settler sent North to wheat area.

2070 - Thermopylae founded. Lux rate turned to 10%. (Breakeven gold)

2030 - Traded Iron Working for Mysticism & Masonry and 2 gold to Babylon leaving them broke. Traded Iron Working to Russia for 22 gold (leaving them about 20)

Started research on Writing. The research rate was the same for that or Mathematics and I'm a sucker for Code of Laws, courthouses are the best early structure IM oh so HO.

1990 - Exploring. Worker sent to connect Thermopylae. Micromanage Athens. When worker is due in 1 turn in Athens, switch one forest worker to flood plain to increase growth, I also did this in 1750, works nicely.

1950 - Settler in Athens, another settler ordered up

1910 - Warrior in Sparta, Another warrior started. Settler moving to Iron Mountain area

1870 - Explore

1830 - Explore

1790 - Explore

1750 - Oh how embarrasing! Thermopylae falls into revolt one turn before MP warrior completes. I adjusted it so the warrior should pop out at the start of the next turn, sheesh.

Corinth founded in the middle of all the lovely shielded grasslands and 2 spots from iron mountain. I started a worker there, naturally, that can be switched (and probably should). A temple would do best there to pick up that iron. It may be worth whipping since it'll be a long build.

I picked that spot rather than the spot next to the iron to get more usable land for the city. Plus with all the warriors we're making, we should have no problem getting swordsmen up quickly if we have the need.

There's a Settler about to pop from Athens, it can pick up the extra warrior which is sitting in Sparta at the moment on it's way through.

Looks like there are about 3 good spots left for city founding: In no paticular order 1) to the far west on the hill next to the furs 2) up the peninsula to the north 3) in the plains just North of the athens culture border

There are a couple of desert spots that would be low priority placeholders: 1) South of Athens, South of Furs on the coast. Won't get much out of them for a while, but they would fill the land nicely.

Other than that, looks like we're stuck at the north end of the continent, Russia is just below us, and babylon below them. There's a big jungle between Russia and us so invasions will be slow going in either direction.

At some point we'll need to start beefing up the infrastructure, I'd love to see some temples getting built.


Here's the zip:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads/SUL4_1750BC.zip

Here's the latest picture

 

[Ziggy]

I have the game...but won't be able to play until my morning (about 16 hrs from now)
Mrs Ziggy frowns on me playing through dinner
Looks like a nice turn though Ming
It seems we have bottled up Russia's scout too heheh

 

[Ihmotep]

I hate that when it happens to you...every time you try to move out, the comp tells you to get out or declare war and then conviniently moves you back in so your stuck there until you..well..declare war

 

[Sullla]

Critique for MingTheMerciles:

2030 - I think this was a good move. Trading a tech that we got first for two others and 24g is a very good deal. We could have researched them ourselves, but now we got to start research on another new tech instead. Writing is definitely the best choice here for the next tech; it open up the option of embassies (ROPs, alliances) and allows us to research 3 other techs. Mathematics doesn't do much, and we can easily trade for it later. Good call!

1990 - This is very good tile management. If you can switch to higher food and get the project done in the same time, always do so. Obviously you can't do this the whole game, but here when we have just a few cities it's very important. I'm quite happy that this is being done without my prompting; if we can all play at this level then this game will be a walk.

1750 - Thermopylae going into disorder is the only real blemish on this turn. It can be hard to catch; you don't expect a city to revolt when it hits size 2! But that is the reality of Emperor. In normal circumstances I would recommend raising the luxury tax, but in this case it really is better to make an entertainer there for the 2 turns it will take to build the warrior for military police. We will have a road to Thermopylae soon though, and that will help; don't forget to bring irrigation up there either!

Corinth is in a good location; lots of bonus grasslands, only 1 tile overlap with Sparta, and a hill and mountain for shields. It has a lot of desert, but so will any other cities founded in that region. I like the site a lot. But Corinth is a low food region and shouldn't be producing a worker. It should go to a temple to get the iron in range and put pressure on St. Petersbug. Whipping is generally not worth it anymore, and I wouldn't recommend it here. And that Hoplite on the iron... move it to a city for military police, we don't need to guard the iron like that.

Looking good so far, we need another worker or two though. I suggest pumping out another from Athens and keeping the one being built in Sparta. Our goal right now is to finish settling our little penninsula. When that is finished, we will attack and destroy Russia, since that's the only direction to go. I see us doing so by a bigtime warrior -> swordsmen upgrade... but all that is longterm stuff for now. DON'T do something stupid like starting a war before we're ready. If Russia or Babylon makes a demand, give it to them! We will get them back later...

Dot Map:

We can only get 3 more cities in here before we will have to do something about Russia. This plan minimizes overlap, and comes up with some decent city sites. Blue and purple dots are the highest pirority (in that order) just to keep Russia from getting the land, even though purple has pretty poor land. Red dot gets third priority despite having the best overall land because we know it's secure from a Russian settler. Yellow dot will be a fishing town, extremely low priority, like post-Russia priority, but still deserves to be marked. The black dots are wasted tiles; and while I hate to waste anything near the capital those dots are in pretty sad land (plains and desert) so I think it's ok. I will respond to any comments and concerns about the game, so don't fear to ask!

Sulla <<< on deck
Ihmotep
Ridgelake
MingTheMerciles
Ziggy <<< UP NOW (and he knows it)

 

[Ridgelake]

Sulla, a few ideas, particularly about the dot map.

Before getting to the dotmap, what do you think about using that warrior 3 spaces NE of Thermo for MP duty instead of completing the warrior that is cued up right now?

On the dot map:

I totally agree with the blue spot and yellow spot.

About the purple dot, what would you think about moving it SE 1 square. This would cover a desert spot with the city center (making it productive) and would open up the plains for development. The yellow dot would still cover the squares lost by moving SE one.

On the plains area NW of Athens, how about a city in the plains square, the one on the very bottom right of Red Dot's radius, the spot that is tangent to 3 of the black dots? Granted, plains arent great land, but with irrigation and harbor, this city could grow to a decent size (albeit slowly). It will never be a powerhouse, but it will be serviceable. And this close to the capital, It will have minimal corruption.

With this "black dot" city, the red dot would need to be moved, either one spot NW of its current proposed location, or out onto the peninsula. Actually, out on the peninsula would allow us to work land on that other island/continent, and with no loss of tiles in our empire. Thermo and black dot would have access to the tiles lost by moving red dot.

Finally, well down the road after yellow dot, how about a city on the black dot spot SE of Athens. We would have to buy a harbor and perhaps a marketplace for it, but it could work the sea and generate income/science for us. It will be even less of a producer than black dot, but with its minimal corruption, it could generate some income/science for us.

Basically, with these proposed changes, we would bring every available land spot currently available to us under management. Not every city will be a powerhouse, but overall, those changes would bring more spaces into service for us.

What are your thoughts on these proposed changes?

Ridge

 

[Sullla]

My thought is that you can always squeeze in more cities if you want to for coastal use only, but I didn't think that these were going to be figuring into our plans anytime soon. Therefore I didn't mark any on the map. Purple currently fits perfectly with the other cities on overlap; the question is whether gaining another plains tile is worth adding significant overlap with Corinth and a tile with Sparta. My instincts tend to say no in this regard. If it were a bonus grassland or some other good tile, certainly but for just a plains tile... I don't think the overlap is worth it.

The site suggested for red dot is not bad, and I considered it too, but I decided against it for these reasons: 1) That location only adds more overlap with Sparta, which is already suffering from lots of overlap 2) The proposed extra city up top would also overlap and would waste a bonus grassland tile by founding on it 3) We can see an island to the NE anyway; the proposed extra city can just go up there anyway 4) again, plains tiles are not the greatest and we are only wasting 4 of them.

I suggest that we found a fishing town later in the game, when we are in a more comfortable position, that just works those missed tiles and unused sea tiles. I like to call these "half cities", since they never get larger than size 5-7.

Comments from other team members or observers? We should go with whatever the majority of team members think is best.