Suleiman and Janissaries

[Gliese 581]

I'm going to start a test game with Suleiman and would like to get feedback on my plan to get the UU online early.

I was thinking along the lines of a SE/bulbing strategy.
First priority, get a good gp farm city, if not the capital then preferably the first expansion. Get the usual worker related techs. Do an expansion. Get the pyramids; look far and wide for stone and chop like crazy. Let the first GP be an engineer then get litterature and have him rush build the Great Library in my gp farm (preferably not in the same city as pyramids to avoid pollution but if not possible then the GE points will probably be diluted enough). As soon as the GE arrive, start two scientists and adopt representation. Get code of laws and run caste system for more scientists. Then bulb philo->paper->education and research gunpowder. After that I could try to get preqs for nationalism and go after liberalism->nationalism to enable drafting.
Is there anything I didn't think of? I've never played Suleiman (or ZY) before so I'm not experienced in beelining gunpowder. Any input would be appreciated!

 

[DMW]

If every turn counts you could research liberalism after edu, and chose gunpowder, its not the most expensive tech but it makes sure no AI's get the benefits from Lib and if you do this you would get GunP as quick as possible.

Rest of your plan looks neat.

 

[absimiliard]

I'm currently playing a game as Suleiman. I ignored Nationalism and went for gunpowder first. Even without drafting I was more than able to build up a force of Janissaries and eat two of my neighbors during their lifespan. After gunpowder I beelined Engineering for the trebuchet's I needed to knock down city defenses. While researching that I built Janissaries and then basically declared as soon as I had 4-6 trebs for bombardment.

Worked good for me.

(I went to Edu. via the Theology > Paper route though, just what my GPs came up as. But basically I did the same idea, use Suleiman's philosophical to leverage the GPs for a Gunpowder rush.)

I should probably mention I totally axe-rushed Joao when he turned out to be near me, and I built a decent econ too. Gunpowder is too far up the tree to not need a decent econ to get to.

-abs

 

[semirami]

The shortest way:
Mysticism-Meditation-Priesthood-Mining- BW- Potery-Writing-Monarchy-Feudalism-Metal Casting- Machinery- Guilds- Gunpowder. You can use great persons as well.

You can do it trough the liberalism path too, if you manage to have great scientists.

Of course the difficulty level is important too.

 

[King of Town]

I keep wanting to do the same thing with both janissaries and oromo warriors. they intrigue me.

 

[Gliese 581]

Thanks for the input guys.

DMW: I thought about that, but liberalism actually costs more than gunpowder to research and IIRC it's to far down the GS prefered tech -list to bulb easily. As you say it would deny Liberalism to the AI but I think I can be first even if I tech gunpowder first.

semirami: I think it's easier to get scientists actually, library comes earlier than market and is cheaper to build and then there's the great library. Also you need to get currency and CoL for the economy and caste system anyhow and by going the liberalism path you also get the free tech + drafting from nationhood. The direct way might be the fastest in beaker cost but I think the scientist route is faster in # of turns (bc of faster research) and more effective.

I've started a game and I'm currently somewhere in the 300s. It's going so-so. I had great luck with stone just outside the capitals bfc but I neglected expansion and army to much early on which has cost me alot. I've got two neighbours on my continent that has boxed me in but I'll soon have 7 good/decent cities at least and the economy is picking up so I might still make it. Unfortunately, my rivals both have access to ivory so I might be up against war elephants. :/

Here's a save if you feel like checking it out: Suleiman 385 AD

Edit: Oh right, war elephants counts as mounted units, I always forget they're not in the monster unit category..

 

[oyzar]

Don't actually need pyramids for this though. Get col of oracle swich to caste farm heavy GS while researching/trading for math/alpha/cs which should get you more than the 4 GS(might want to use the first one for academy) you need to bulb philo paper edu edu(notice that it is better to bulb edu twice than to bulb paper most of the time) research gunpowder(probably with scientist since you allready have the structure for that set up). Assuming you don't have fishing by this point you can then bulb liberalism with the next GS(by researching metal casting) or if you have fishing you can research/trade sailing/compass/calendar and then bulb liberalism(taking nationalism). Of course it might be advisable to get cats and build these while waiting for the janasaries as if the enemies have longbows cats can help you get down cultural defense and with colleteral. Since this is rather fast, at many levels the ai won't have longbows which means you don't need cats.

 

[triacontahedron]

Why go education at all? Go for Guilds -> gunpowder. If you want warring this path is better as you will pick up some nice military/production techs.

 

[DigitalBoy]

Liberalism is nice to snag while you're at it. It's on the same part of the tech tree (unless you go through Guilds) and doesn't cost that much more than Gunpowder. You will, however, need to research Philosophy, but you can lightbulb it with a great scientist if you want to. At any rate, I would suggest using a great scientist to bulb part of Education and get to Gunpowder that way. But I would recommend researching Metal Casting beforehand, so you can build forges while you're waiting for Gunpowder.

The absolute fastest way to get to Gunpowder would involve researching Civil Service and using three great scientists to bulb Paper (Philosophy and Optics are both higher bulb priorities, so you'll have to avoid researching Meditation or Machinery/Compass) and Education and then research Gunpowder (I don't personally like to bulb great scientists for ~800 beakers but whatever).

 

[Gliese 581]

I just calculated the beaker difference by going for guilds-> gunpowder wo bulbing techs and going edu-> gunpowder and bulb philo paper and education. Now granted this is not totally fair since you could bulb something on your way to guilds, it's just my understanding that this is much more difficult. On the other hand like oyzar pointed out oracle-> CoL(or mc) is certainly possible for example..

Anyhow, here's a list of the cheapest techs you need to go the guilds route, and beaker cost on epic standard map; (worker techs and mysticism not counted)

MC 1053
Machinery 1638
Meditation 186
Priesthood 139
Monarchy 702
Writing 280
Feudalism 1638
Guilds 2340
Gunpowder 2808
---
Total: 10784 beakers

Going the edu + bulbing route;

Writing 280
Math 585
Alphabet 702
Currency 936
CoL 819
CS 1872
Meditation 186
Bulb Philo, Paper, Edu x2
Gunpowder 2808
---
Total: 8188 beakers and 4 GS, 5 with Academy
Great Library detour included:

Polytheism 234
Aesthetics 702
Litterature 468
---
Total: 8188+1404= 9592

Now some of the techs might have gotten cheaper since I picked the costs straight out of my test game, I don't know if the start values are different, but it's at least an approximation of costs.

From this comparison the edu route is cheaper in techs you need to self research or trade for, but it doesn't account for what you do with any GPs you get while going the Guilds route.

If you compare the techs aside from the goal of getting to gunpowder quickly, I think you get some important techs like alphabet for trading, CoL for courthouses and caste system and currency for extra trade routes and marketplaces as part of the Edu route that will give you much needed economic power. You could add some or all of these to the guilds route but that would increase the beaker cost. You are also in a prime position to then get liberalism and grab nationalism and have unlocked Suleimans discount universities to further capitalize on this position.

The guilds route do have some advantages though, like the possibility to build The Oracle instead of The Pyramids, will cost fewer hammers and give a free bulb. Otoh it's my experience that you can delay pyramids longer if you have access to stone and get a few more worker techs/expansions/workers out first.

So in conclusion I have to say I'm still leaning on going the Edu route, although oyzar is probably correct that the pyramids/The Great Library is not necessary. The Pyramids and TGL are the two best wonders out there though in my opinion, and getting Pyramids will practically guarantee you to get TGL if you make sure to get a GE as your first GP. It might slow you down a few turns but will serve you well in the long run.
I've already learned one lesson though in being to single-minded about the pyramids. I should have delayed it for a second settler and some units to get my rex going a bit more before building it. If I lose it I could then try for the Oracle -> CoL or just research CoL normally early on to enable caste system asap.

Some more testing is in order..

 

[absimiliard]

Okay, let me see if I can remember the trick. For a non-philosophical leader this probably isn't terribly easy, but Suleiman is philosophical so it works.

Research priesthood and run a priest for your first GP. Then tech writing and start running libraries across your cities. After writing you tech monotheism and then bulb theology. (getting you theocracy and Christianity as side benefits) Three more GSs from your libraries, which shouldn't take too long, and you've got paper and education. Heck, tech paper with the libraries and then you only need two GSs to get education for free. After that it's just researching gunpowder.

Pretty damn quick, and Suleiman can pull it off because philosophical allows you to focus your GP points and control what you get. 600 GP points plus teching writing, monotheism, paper, and gunpowder and you're there.

What I would really like is the idea of trying to time having writing and monotheism along with a bulbed priest to allow you to Oracle paper from theology. Not sure if it would be remotely possible on a higher level though, if at all. But damn it would be sweet if you could pull it off.

-abs

 

[Gliese 581]

Okay, let me see if I can remember the trick. For a non-philosophical leader this probably isn't terribly easy, but Suleiman is philosophical so it works.

Research priesthood and run a priest for your first GP. Then tech writing and start running libraries across your cities. After writing you tech monotheism and then bulb theology. (getting you theocracy and Christianity as side benefits) Three more GSs from your libraries, which shouldn't take too long, and you've got paper and education. Heck, tech paper with the libraries and then you only need two GSs to get education for free. After that it's just researching gunpowder.

Pretty damn quick, and Suleiman can pull it off because philosophical allows you to focus your GP points and control what you get. 600 GP points plus teching writing, monotheism, paper, and gunpowder and you're there.

What I would really like is the idea of trying to time having writing and monotheism along with a bulbed priest to allow you to Oracle paper from theology. Not sure if it would be remotely possible on a higher level though, if at all. But damn it would be sweet if you could pull it off.

-abs

That's a pretty good idea but you need alphabet and math in order to have your Gss bulb paper and education. But you could research them + currency + col while waiting for 4 GS (I'm pretty certain you have time for 4 of them, at least if you went with The Oracle for theocracy, so the first could construct an academy), after that you basically have all the techs you need for infrastructure as well, the only thing that would be sweet to add would be metal casting for forges.
You can build the oracle instead of temple + priest and get theocracy of that.
No drafting and probably nerfed in the liberalism race but with a super early janissary rush you could make up for that very well I think.
Let's see..

poly 234
priesthood 139
monotheism 280
writing 280
Bulb Theocracy via priest/oracle
math 585
alphabet 702
Then (optionally, but probably a good idea)
currency 936
CoL 819
bulb paper + edu x2
gunpowder 2808
---
Total: 6783, not bad..

I think this could be just as viable as the liberalism route for this. Less long-term payoffs but an even faster beeline. I guess it would depend on your neighbours and the optimal time to pull of an attack.

 

[ViterboKnight]

I think it's better to reach gunpowder through Education.
There are a lot of techs you need in this way, and you don't need Theology at all. Instead, you need Code of Laws, Mathematics (Hammam) and Philosophy (I think Pacifism is a must). Also education is quite useful, beacuse you are expected to focus your game on research (specialist economy, but still focused on research), then Universities are extremely useful.

About wonders, you'd rather build the Partnenon! I also like Great Wall, for his bonus for Great Generals which sums to Suleiman's Imperialistic trait.

I usually don't beeline to Liberalism. I prefer to reach Gunpowder first of all, and then I try Economy for the free Great Merchant. Liberalism is not so important for my plans; when I reach Gunpowder, it's time for a big war!!

 

[UncleJJ]

I think the best route for making good use of janissaries is the Liberalism - Nationalism route. That lets you use drafting, and janissaries are one of the best troops to draft, it allows the Taj Mahal to be built for a production kick start, and it puts Constitution just 1 tech away.

So with Sulieman I would expand to take as much territory as possible using Snaaty's archer-and-city spamming strategy, then beeline Liberalism, lightbulbing Philosophy and Education and settling any other GS after an academy. After taking Nationalism, research Gunpowder for janissaries and trade techs for engineering (if possible). Then while drafting janissaries and building trebs research Constitution for jails, you're going to need them for WW in big cities and they give good EP output which is needed to see what your rivals are doing. Building The Pyramids and even the Great Library is debatable as it slows down the main thrust.

 

[oyzar]

just delay meditation so you don't have to bulb philo before paper and use 3 gs to bulb paper edu*2 and then research gunpowder before getting the rest of liberalism-> nationalism, the earlier you start building them, the more you'll have. Cats might be needed though...

 

[triacontahedron]

Calculating beakers is nice especially when you consider bulbing but you forget that if you want to go liberalism path you need to burn 4GS. 4GS = academy + 47beakers/turn (with library and representation) or 4GS = 2 golden ages which you can use to build an army. If you build pyramids then using an eng from a forge you can generate GE with high probability to bulb Machinery. Arguments like you need CoL, Mathematics are not very viable because you can easily trade for these techs, AI research them fairly early.

Theocracy is far from useless, LB is one of the best units for city defense so you can start preparing for final war by building bunch of LB to secure new cities (while researching guilds gunpowder). Guilds will give you access to knights , very useful addition to a janissary army.

 

[absimiliard]

Tria: Longbows are from feudalism not theocracry. Sorry.

Gliese: I discovered the route not by analysis but by luck. I believe I did research alphabet when I saw I couldn't bulb paper with my GS. I self-tech'd math earlier because I wanted the hamams for the extra happy. Although I suggested teching gunpowder I don't recall that I actually did, I think in the game I played I actually bulbed philosophy and part of liberalism and took gunpowder as my free tech. Take these comments with a grain of salt, I'm non-caffeinated yet today, and the early tech part of my game was days ago in real life so it's a bit blurry. The upshot was that I didn't come close to as early a discovery of gunpowder as I could have because I was busy axe-rushing Joao and building an economy but even with that I still got my jannissaries out early enough to eat one opponent pre-gunpowder and to rush another with massed janissaries. I also headed to engineering right after gunpowder, though cats might have been enough.

-abs
"BTW, how cool that you've chosen as a name a star that could actually host a super-earth in the outer zone of habitability! It's such a pity 581 c is almost certainly a greenhouse runaway like Venus since it's only 1.5 earth masses, but we can still hold hope for 581 d as a habitable-zone super-earth maybe with a habitable moon for example, b is of course far too close in to even have habitable moons. (damn hot Jupiters)"

 

[DigitalBoy]

Tria: Longbows are from feudalism not theocracry. Sorry.

He obviously meant Feudalism because he's suggesting reaching Gunpowder through Guilds, which has Feudalism as a prequisite. His point still stands; he just didn't communicate it right.

(Personally, I like to skip longbows entirely when beelining for muskets.)

 

[absimiliard]

Doh! My bad then. Sorry Tria.

I thought he was defending theocracy, which is generally not viewed as a great tech.

-abs

 

[triacontahedron]

He obviously meant Feudalism because he's suggesting reaching Gunpowder through Guilds, which has Feudalism as a prequisite. His point still stands; he just didn't communicate it right.

(Personally, I like to skip longbows entirely when beelining for muskets.)

My bad I meant Feudalism. I dont like LB myself (best defense is a good offense) and not really fond of the idea to use Janissaries for war. The problem with them is that they can not get CR promotion, AFAIK, so they are not as good as maces for taking cities. So even if you are going Education path you better get Machinery and Engeneering for trebs, catapults are not very good against longbows.