Sully the Bully - BC Janissary rush (deity)

[elitetroops]

Here's a little gunpowder beeline that I've done a couple of times, but never seen any write-up of it. Up to prince or maybe monarch, it probably works like a charm on most starts. Also did it once on emperor with a standard green river+forest start, nothing special. However, a strategy is no strategy if it doesn't work on the highest level, so let's find out if it can be done on deity*!

*With a ridonculous start, the right circumstaes and a lot of luck...

Settings:

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(Opponents hand-picked to avoid the worst religious wonder whores.)

First we need a standard HoF start, double gold+floodplains+PH stone will do:

No need to discuss settling, I know where I'm going.

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And we have desert incense!!!

Pretty soon I meet this dude who seems to have a knife stuck through his chin:

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and this other guy who apparently has some kind of rash on his face, the way he keeps scratching it:

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Worker first, then some warriors while I tech the basic mining-mysticism-BW opening and explore:

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That's a cozy little peninsula!

Wait, did I just say mysticism? That's right. After the warriors, I put some hammers into SH, then set up a 2 pop settler whip with max overflow, while my worker gets a chop ready and as soon as masonry is in, these hammers are put into:

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After this I settle Edirne, tech pot-wri-med-priest, build another worker, some cottages and granary+library in my capital. At that time this weird bearded dude arrives, who keeps shouting some gibberish about virgins, stables and flying shiny ladies:

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Don't understand what substance he is on, so I just let him sleep on the streets of Istanbul for now.

However, not long after that:

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Which suddenly inspires the weird bearded dude to start preaching even louder and:

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At this point I'm getting more and more nervous every time I press "end turn". I don't want to pollute Istanbul's GP pool any more and Edirne only has 2 forests to chop. Can I get it, can I get it, can I get it...

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Finally...

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Just when this happens, another weird bearded dude appears in Istanbul:

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Apparently just a random drunkard who walks around with a bottle of some blue beverage and keeps scribbling nonsense on this new hip invention called "paper". Meh, paper is probably just a brief fad anyway... Well, I'll let him hang around, maybe I can find use for him later.

To be continued...

 

[elitetroops]

...

Not long after that I meet some more people:

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One of them is kind enough to share his map and I get a better feel of where I am in this world:

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That's a lot of rainforest! No wonder those lazy bums couldn't beat me to the henge or oracle.

After teching maths and the remaining worker techs I put slider at 0% and just keep improving my lands and slowly expanding towards 5 cities. Then in 600BC another random drunkard with a blue beverage shows up in Istanbul:

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He quickly joins up with the earlier drunkard and together they come up with this crazy idea called:

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Around that time Hannibal and Freddy finally reached alpha and I do some brief trades. Tech situation after first trades:

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Theo gave me alpha+cur+monarchy and later it would still get me calendar and construction. Not a bad bulb!

I continue building the necessary infra while my warriors explore and admire the awesome settling skills of my western neighbors:

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Finally, in 175 BC, it's on!

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Workers have been busy pre-chopping, barracks are up, Christianity spread and whip overflow is coming in in all cities. I'm ready to build an army as soon as I've spent one turn getting into theocracy!

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Tech situation:

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Stopped playing here for now, will do the war later. Hopefully I can get to Rammy before he gets feud. Janissaries vs. archers is so much fun! Longbows are less fun, but doable.

 

[Manco Capac]

However, a strategy is no strategy if it doesn't work on the highest level, so let's find out if it can be done on deity*!

That's what they wanted people to swallow...that is under the same category of the assertion that 1.5*(#Cities) workers are needed all the time. People really should stop measuring everything to deity level because we end up with quite few "real" strategies according to that definition.

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Otherwise, quite neat.
I think the last hearing of that beeline was made by AZ saying the Janissary isn't much worth given the odds aren't that wonderful (in general, but he was attacking Mansa, so...) and the arrival of longbows early make it less appealing given the cost of janissaries.

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It's weird. By the time you got Gunpowder, you're 3 times stronger than Washington and more powerful than Ramesses. What's going on with two leaders?
I knew techs, some buildings, pop and actual military units give power rating, but being 3 times stronger than Washington and Ramesses....what are these ones up to?

 

[elitetroops]

I think the last hearing of that beeline was made by AZ saying the Janissary isn't much worth given the odds aren't that wonderful (in general, but he was attacking Mansa, so...) and the arrival of longbows early make it less appealing given the cost of janissaries.

Oh, AZ did it? And I thought it was something new, should have guessed... But it's fun in any case!

It's weird. By the time you got Gunpowder, you're 3 times stronger than Washington and more powerful than Ramesses. What's going on with two leaders?

Okay, I really should change those settings as that keeps confusing everyone... The numbers are reversed. Washington is 3 times stronger than me.

 

[Manco Capac]

That was it! Ok, my bad. That makes sense after all.

Oh, AZ did it?

Not necessarily with the same tech pattern as yours and strategy. It is been a while, thus I don't remember exactly what was his, but the goal was the same because he felt Janissaries rocked on paper because countering everything.

 

[elitetroops]

Not necessarily with the same tech pattern as yours and strategy. It is been a while, thus I don't remember exactly what was his, but the goal was the same because he felt Janissaries rocked on paper because countering everything.

Yes, they're not really as good as they seem. Pretty much have to get them before longbows and castles for them to really crush. On lower levels you can certainly take out a few opponents pre-feud using this strategy. Deity comes with the advantage that I could trade for construction and still have more than enough tradebait for engineering once someone gets there, as I suppose siege will be necessary.

 

[Manco Capac]

Another strong point of that strategy is , if everything works well (no AI early rush, good land, no low odd second GProphet, fogbust-able lands, etc.), that the result is definite: one doesn't need any strategic resource at all. One misses both copper and iron (as most classical and medieval units need it), no problem, that beeline will ensure 100% to pump the units. Same as a longbow beelines, but that one sucks very much unless one wants strong defensive units early for a particular reason (or an early vassal, which is a much better reason than just for longbows).

 

[elitetroops]

if everything works well (no AI early rush, good land, no low odd second GProphet, fogbust-able lands, etc.)

Yes, GProphets can screw this up badly. Best way to avoid would be to generate scientists in a separate city. Here Edirne was low on food and I needed AH or fishing to get any other strong site quickly online, so I didn't manage to get a library and scientists outside capital fast enough. On lower levels you can just put SH in 2nd city to avoid the problem.

 

[Fippy]

This start + saying only Deity qualifies..not sure that makes sense for me
A below average or bad Imm. start should not be easier than this map on Deity, tbh.

 

[Thrar]

Saying that only Deity can validate your strategy and then playing it with a ridiculous start and a 1160 BC Oracle seems contradictory to me. I would expect such late an Oracle to be impossible in 80% of Deity games.
Getting two GS at 75% each is far from certain as well - only 56%, more specifically.

While it certainly looks impressive, something that only works in 10-15% of games (20% Oracle times 56% GP) even when having an exceptional start isn't something I would call a strategy.

 

[Seraiel]

Otherwise, quite neat.
I think the last hearing of that beeline was made by AZ saying the Janissary isn't much worth given the odds aren't that wonderful (in general, but he was attacking Mansa, so...) and the arrival of longbows early make it less appealing given the cost of janissaries.

STW mentioned the Janissary about last month. He proposed to double bulb Education or bulb Paper + Education, done best with Suleiman. I think he mentioned the same beeline, via via Theo, but his approach with Oracle Theology and double bulbing the mentioned techs with GSs is a lot more realistic.

Unfortunately, the chances of me testing this out are incredibly small due to Elders Scrolls Online starting in April. Janissaries imo are amazing units, Gunpowder just comes so early, and drafting itself is simply totally overpowered. Must be an amazing fun to try this out.

Respect btw. for Oracling Paper, I cannot remember having seen a writeup from somebody who did this before.

 

[ohjames]

A lot definitely went right, here. I like the idea of this gambit but we don't always have gold+PH stone+limping AIs+slowroll Oracle...

Is the standard Liberalism->Nationalism with self-teched Gunpowder just to slow to be feasible? Alternatively, what about the slower GLib->Eng bulb route, so that you can attack with Muskets+Trebs?

 

[elitetroops]

This start + saying only Deity qualifies..not sure that makes sense for me
A below average or bad Imm. start should not be easier than this map on Deity, tbh.

Saying that only Deity can validate your strategy and then playing it with a ridiculous start and a 1160 BC Oracle seems contradictory to me. I would expect such late an Oracle to be impossible in 80% of Deity games.
Getting two GS at 75% each is far from certain as well - only 56%, more specifically.

While it certainly looks impressive, something that only works in 10-15% of games (20% Oracle times 56% GP) even when having an exceptional start isn't something I would call a strategy.

Lol, of course it's not a strategy meant to be used on deity. That part was very tongue-in-cheek. I should apparently have put a ton of wink and eyerolling smilies after that deity sentence to avoid upsetting all literalists around, but I thought it would be clear without further emphasis that anything which requires stonehenge and building the oracle after bulbing theology is not a reliable deity strategy...

Respect btw. for Oracling Paper, I cannot remember having seen a writeup from somebody who did this before.

Thank you. While it's close to impossible to pull off on deity, it can be done a lot more reliably on lower levels. In the different openings I tried for this game, the fastest paper oracle date was 1280BC with SH 2880BC (though with less cities and less infra and less GP points accumulated, which would have meant slower gunpowder). Those dates are probably close to 100% certain on any level up to emperor.

EDIT: I wonder if the paper oracle could be done using the obelisk for GProphet generation... Not that Egypt would need fast Gunpowder, but theo+paper as early monopoly techs are quite powerful tradebait in any case!

 

[sampsa]

Well played and a fun write-up.

Is the standard Liberalism->Nationalism with self-teched Gunpowder just to slow to be feasible? Alternatively, what about the slower GLib->Eng bulb route, so that you can attack with Muskets+Trebs?

I think any "standard" strategy involving a military breakout would give you as good or a better position than the actual one. Engineering bulb -strategy would certainly fit to this map.

 

[Robert FIN]

Waiting for the beatdown part !! Just wondering how you did the job with 3 cities. Anyways, Ottomans rule!!

 

[elitetroops]

Just wondering how you did the job with 3 cities.

In the early game fewer cities = faster teching in most cases. The increased maintenance costs from more cities will usually slow you down if the added city isn't some commerce powerhouse (gold/gems) or share cottages with your capital.

The hard part when pulling a rush like this is to know when to settle more cities so that there's time to get them ready for unit production, without having them slow down your teching too much. I'm sure many players around here could have done this much better than I did in this attempt. I did consider settling 2 more cities to get even more whipping power when gunpowder is in, but in the end I didn't have time for that. Or maybe I could have got at least one more (would have been 3S1W of cap) if I had delayed gunpowder 1 turn and built a settler instead of research in cap.

 

[pomthom]

Fippy and Thrar's points are fair, but still, nicely done

Interested in watching its efficiency

 

[MegaLurker]

I like it. I wonder if you'd have done better to put a city on the PH 2N1W of the plains cow before American culture took it. Pretty strong whipping site, still only 6 cities so not killing you on maintenance.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

An interesting variation on the BC Gunpowder rush! One only needs Philosophy (possible GS bulb) + Liberalism (possible GS bulb) to get Nationalism and adopt Nationhood to mass draft Janissaries.

Seraiel has already mentioned the more straight forward strategy of oracling Theology and GS bulbing as much of Paper -> Education ASAP there after.

Impressive start! Good luck with your game. I plan to follow it closely.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[elitetroops]

Okay, now comes the part that I feel I'm not as good at, war. I whip and chop while my soon to be great medic chariot has a look at what we'll be facing. The closest thing to a stack I could find was this:

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Not particulary scary and he has only 2 archers and an axe in Heliopolis, with no chance to bring in reinforcements from Thebes, so I decide to attack asap even though I have only 4 Janissaries in place. There's a lot more moving towards the border and they can catch up in Heliopolis. That's the nice thing with Janissaries, I don't need to worry about counter attacks. As long as I can take a city, I can also keep it. I declare in 1 AD, then I realize one of the 4 Jans doesn't have enough movement left to get in position and Rammy got feud last turn! Oh well, 3 Jans and 2 axes vs whatever he has must do. He doesn't have enough time to get any fortification bonus for his longbow, so a C1+cover Jan is not doing too bad:

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But this picture shows why I would have preferred to face archers instead:

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Heliopolis falls that same turn, the next turn he completes the AP. I hate that thing with all my heart. Sincerely. Of course confucianism has somehow spread to my core cities and it would be a massive blow to defy the coming stop the war vote. So I put on a higher gear to take him out asap. Maybe, just maybe, I could make him cap after taking Thebes.

Memphis is a piece of cake, like Heliopolis. No hill and only a few defenders. Thebes seems to be a bit tougher with more defenses and it's on a hill, which means siege would be very helpful. Due to bad planning I started building catas way too late, so by the time I get to Thebes (one turn before the next AP vote) I have only one pult with me... Luckily, his "stack" is still not very scary:

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I lose a few Janissaries, but there was still enough of them and by the end of the day Ottoman kebab is served on the streets of Thebes to celebrate the liberation from their previous cruel oppressor. Deep down I would have wanted to rather burn the thing down because it has that stupid Palace that I hate so much, but it came with some other goodies as well, so this would not have been an option:

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He is not ready to cap though, still has 3 cities on this continent and also built 2 on the other one. The vote is coming in next turn and I'm pretty sure what it will be about.

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I'm considering to just defy it, whip out whatever unhappiness it causes and go on to kick him off this continent. He has no more hill cities and I now also have quite a bit of siege support available. All my confucian cities have at least one more religion, which should cut down on the unhappiness time, right?

The cities I conquered and the cities he has left:

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Rammy is the tech leader at the moment, so having him as a vassal shouldn't be too bad. I traded Paper for machinery and CS after putting a couple of turns into both. Next I really want engineering for trebs and to speed up road movement. Takes forever to get any units anywhere like this.

So how are the Janissaries doing? I lost 6 of them so far (+1 catapult) taking 3 cities and wiping out most of his army. I'm very lucky that he doesn't have any more hill cities though, that would make it much harder! Vs a protective neighbor, or one with mostly hill cities, I don't think it would be worth to consider going to war with Janissaries vs longbows, better to just go engineering+whatever units to mop up. Soon I will have engineering + Janissaries though, that should be enough to take out Washington, I hope.

The AI is obviously teching much faster than I am at the moment. But I still have monopoly on both edu and gunpowder and hopefully I can still get some more from paper as well, so I'm not that worried. Rammy's was also nice enough to build me the Kong Miao in Elephantine 2 turns ago, which should help together with the other wonders I got from him. I also wouldn't mind getting a GProphet next. The Church of the Nativity should bring in at least 16gpt when I build it. Though a GS for bulbing lib is certainly not bad either.