Sumer - CBP Compatable Custom Civs

[Funak]

Well I'll make the incense and wine god more clear somehow, rather than scrap it for an easily fixed clarity issue.

Of course.

Automated workers...i had no idea people used those. But I guess I see your point. I'm not gonna get rid of it still, because there may be a time when you really want it and its not like you're forced to choose it every game

Automated workers are actually really cool now, G did a bunch of work on them. I usually use them just to watch for quirks to report, but they are really doing their job well. Give them a try, actually, I promise you'll be suprised.

You think so? I suppose that could be the case too. I wish I had a screenshot of the game when i ended it in classical because Gilgamesh had 6 cities with almost every improvable tile improved where everyone else had half the population and pretty much only improvements in the capital.

Weird. I like the aspect of the free worker that it just gives you a quicker start, which makes sense for Gilgamesh. And the free worker isn't exactly worth more than the gold from settling that Carthage gets, as they can use that gold to instantly purchase a worker(or anything else)
All in all it is kinda hard to tell.

 

[Sun Pope]

Word. I'll look into balancing the specialists for now. If you come up with any ideas on replacing it with something else, lmk.

Ok, so now that those patrons are settled, lets move on to this trio, possible quatro series of Patrons:

Nergal (War): Land Units +15XP
Ishkur (Storms): Naval Units +15XP
Sirsir (Seamen/Navy): +15% Production on Naval Units
???? (???): +15% Production on Land Units (Not implemented yet as I can't decide on a god name)

I think these guys are pretty lacking in power, what do you think about these buffs?

Nergal: +15XP land units, +1C/P for Armory and Barracks

Ishkur: +15XP Naval Units, +1C/P for Lighthouse and Harbour

Sirsir: +30% Production towards Naval Units, Newly trained units get +1 Sight/Movement. (Sight/Movement on naval units is pretty strong IMO, might either pick just sight or just movement. Also thinking about changing it to Supply, or is that even more OP?)

????: +30% Production towards Land Units, Newly trained units get Superiority (Vulture Upgrade) OR defensive land bonus


Nergal's "niche" so to speak it to make a city into an offensive army producer, as it prompts you to mass up all the XP buildings. (Also I could add the Military Academy to get the same bonuses down the line)

Ishkur is similar, but for navy. While the barracks and armory don't get the buff like Nergal, I think thematically the lighthouse and harbour make more sense. (and like Nergal, I can extend this to include the seaport too)

The nameless god I want to be like a defensive force trainer. Gives a free promotion (friendly lands or the unique Sumerian vulture promo, either one works IMO) and a production modifier so you spend less time training units and have more time building economic stuff.

Sirsir I feel is about naval exploration (hence the GL promotion), as the production modifier helps you not spend as much time building the caravels and such and lets you focus on economic buildings, like nameless god.

The main difference between the first two and the second two are that the quality of the units from the first two are naturally going to be much higher whereas the second two just help you get them out faster with some basic promos on them (without needing barracks or armories). With the higher quality units, an offensive force is much stronger but with sheer numbers the cheap units will do for defensive forces or exploration

 

[Funak]

Word. I'll look into balancing the specialists for now. If you come up with any ideas on replacing it with something else, lmk.

Ok, so now that those patrons are settled, lets move on to this trio, possible quatro series of Patrons:

Nergal (War): Land Units +15XP
Ishkur (Storms): Naval Units +15XP
Sirsir (Seamen/Navy): +15% Production on Naval Units
???? (???): +15% Production on Land Units (Not implemented yet as I can't decide on a god name)

I think these guys are pretty lacking in power, what do you think about these buffs?

Nergal: +15XP land units, +1C/P for Armory and Barracks

Ishkur: +15XP Naval Units, +1C/P for Lighthouse and Harbour

Sirsir: +30% Production towards Naval Units, Newly trained units get +1 Sight/Movement. (Sight/Movement on naval units is pretty strong IMO, might either pick just sight or just movement. Also thinking about changing it to Supply, or is that even more OP?)

????: +30% Production towards Land Units, Newly trained units get Superiority (Vulture Upgrade) OR defensive land bonus


Nergal's "niche" so to speak it to make a city into an offensive army producer, as it prompts you to mass up all the XP buildings. (Also I could add the Military Academy to get the same bonuses down the line)

Ishkur is similar, but for navy. While the barracks and armory don't get the buff like Nergal, I think thematically the lighthouse and harbour make more sense. (and like Nergal, I can extend this to include the seaport too)

The nameless god I want to be like a defensive force trainer. Gives a free promotion (friendly lands or the unique Sumerian vulture promo, either one works IMO) and a production modifier so you spend less time training units and have more time building economic stuff.

Sirsir I feel is about naval exploration (hence the GL promotion), as the production modifier helps you not spend as much time building the caravels and such and lets you focus on economic buildings, like nameless god.

The main difference between the first two and the second two are that the quality of the units from the first two are naturally going to be much higher whereas the second two just help you get them out faster with some basic promos on them (without needing barracks or armories). With the higher quality units, an offensive force is much stronger but with sheer numbers the cheap units will do for defensive forces or exploration

How about:

Nergal (War): Land Units +15XP +10% Production on Naval Units (alternatively it could be 10xp 15% production or any other combination of those)
Sirsir (Seamen/Navy): Naval Units +15XP, +10% Production on Naval Units (Same as Nurgle)

Ishkur (Storms): I have a few suggestions for this one, also not really sure if SirSir and this one should be swapped, not really that obvious which I would see as military between Storms and Seamen. Anyways:
1. +X <Yields> to every sea resource, (+Y <yield> base?).
Depending on how erratic you want it, you can raise the yields from sea-resources or the base-yields.
2. +1 <Yield> to all worked sea tiles.
Could be too powerful, could also be just fine, I'm not sure, there is no other UB in the game that adds extra yields to all sea-tiles
3. +X <Yield> for every Y worked sea tiles (+Z <yield> base?)
A more balanced but also more confusing version of 2., threw in some possible base yields as well.
4. +X <Yield> for every Y worked sea tiles, +1 <Yield> to all sea-resources.
Some possible mix

 

[Sun Pope]

How about:

Nergal (War): Land Units +15XP +10% Production on Naval Units (alternatively it could be 10xp 15% production or any other combination of those)
Sirsir (Seamen/Navy): Naval Units +15XP, +10% Production on Naval Units (Same as Nurgle)

Ishkur (Storms): I have a few suggestions for this one, also not really sure if SirSir and this one should be swapped, not really that obvious which I would see as military between Storms and Seamen. Anyways:
1. +X <Yields> to every sea resource, (+Y <yield> base?).
Depending on how erratic you want it, you can raise the yields from sea-resources or the base-yields.
2. +1 <Yield> to all worked sea tiles.
Could be too powerful, could also be just fine, I'm not sure, there is no other UB in the game that adds extra yields to all sea-tiles
3. +X <Yield> for every Y worked sea tiles (+Z <yield> base?)
A more balanced but also more confusing version of 2., threw in some possible base yields as well.
4. +X <Yield> for every Y worked sea tiles, +1 <Yield> to all sea-resources.
Some possible mix

I mean if we don't have any problems with it, I could easily change Sirsir to the god of Fishermen, because honestly I think that's probably what he was. Ancient Mesopotamia wasn't known for it's impressive fleet of war ships haha.

I like the war guys, though +10% production still seems a little on the weak side, maybe it could be +15XP and +15%Hammer

For the last one, if we do make it an economic buff rather than military, I like option 2 and 4. I would like to see +1C on sea, as the general theme with Ziggurats is that Sumerian Religion==Culture. If we do 4, we could have the +1C on sea tiles and sea resources get +2C, unless thats too OP (now that I type it out it does seem pretty damn stronk)

 

[hokath]

My thoughts on life:

UA: Not a fan of free workers. It's crazy strong in the early game, and I'm basically giving them away later on. At the moment the specialists are all giving production, what's the word on this?
I do like the free pop.

I would consider ditching free workers and transferring that power into the free pop by upping the base by 1. So start with 3 in ancient, 4 classical, etc. One thing that happens, especially in the expansion cities of the classical and beyond, is that I hit this point where I have more people than tiles to work. Labourer doesn't seem to receive the UA bonus however, would be a nice solution if it did. Further, whatever yields you decide on (though I advise against 2 production, v. strong as Funak noted) perhaps add some culture, that would give a little boost to border growth and that would help too.

UU: Is almost strictly dominating the Spearman. Same tech, no combat downside, only a tiny increased production cost, no iron requirement. I think one of these things needs to change.

UB: It's super awesome. The religious icon popup (choose new belief one) always makes me so happy. I would suggest you keep a lid on the number of Deities though, its quite overwhelming and time consuming. It would feel better, perhaps, to have more fewer, more powerful choices.

On the magnitude: the fact that you can choose the belief means you will always get 'the best' out of the ziggurat, so it needs to be budgeted a bit lower than other UBs. But overall CBP has pretty good UBs, and that's good because it feels cool to build them. So I think that many of the bonuses are just are perhaps a tad weak: consider God of the Moon, most of the time this is only +2 culture, maybe +4 and if you are crazy lucky +6. Now look at Rome's UB.

Another thought, perhaps change the resource based ones to improvement based ones as in the Pantheon system. So "mines on improved resources" instead of gold, silver, iron, copper.

 

[tompliss]

Little thing about the War Guys :
I would find it frustrating to have a +15XP on one version and +X% prod on another, because you actually want to have both of those together.
(Yes, you will want to have aboth a wine-booster and a sugar-booster in a wine-and-sugar-city, but I feel like this issue is diferent).

On the other hand, I don't think that +10-15% prod is actually felt by the player. the +15XP is good (15 more than 10 or even 20, because it fits with the usual levels). And if it doesn't feels enough (but I doubt it), I would more easily go toward a misc promotion or a yield boost than prod boost.

 

[Sun Pope]

My thoughts on life:

UA: Not a fan of free workers. It's crazy strong in the early game, and I'm basically giving them away later on. At the moment the specialists are all giving production, what's the word on this?
I do like the free pop.

I would consider ditching free workers and transferring that power into the free pop by upping the base by 1. So start with 3 in ancient, 4 classical, etc. One thing that happens, especially in the expansion cities of the classical and beyond, is that I hit this point where I have more people than tiles to work. Labourer doesn't seem to receive the UA bonus however, would be a nice solution if it did. Further, whatever yields you decide on (though I advise against 2 production, v. strong as Funak noted) perhaps add some culture, that would give a little boost to border growth and that would help too.

Agreed on the workers. I think maybe one to start with is okay, and I have noticed the Overpopulation issue late game, as my city will be starving right out the cage unless I spend money on tiles. Your note about labourers just sparked an idea for me, as there isn't a civ that utilises those efficiently, AFAIK

Propositional UA:

Dawn of Man: Cities start with extra population based on era, and start the game with a worker. Labourers produce +2 Food and Specialists Provide +1 [Yield]

For the [YIELD], I'm thinking Culture. We could also change it to +1% production, so with tradition filled you don't have that insane flat Production but something like +12%.

UU: Is almost strictly dominating the Spearman. Same tech, no combat downside, only a tiny increased production cost, no iron requirement. I think one of these things needs to change.

Well, I won't deny the Vulture is really strong, but when compared to other similar units such as the Pictish warrior or the mohawk, I don't think it's too overpowered. I could see perhaps having it unlock when normal swordsmen unlock, as the real issue here is that spearmen are really a non-factor for Sumer since the vultures are just flat-out better. That being said, I don't really see that as a big problem, since warriors don't upgrade to Vultures you pretty much only have this time to build them, while your warriors from the past eras can transition into your spearmen line. Down the line, they come together anyway so it's not that bad that Sumer players wont want to build spearmen

UB: It's super awesome. The religious icon popup (choose new belief one) always makes me so happy. I would suggest you keep a lid on the number of Deities though, its quite overwhelming and time consuming. It would feel better, perhaps, to have more fewer, more powerful choices.

On the magnitude: the fact that you can choose the belief means you will always get 'the best' out of the ziggurat, so it needs to be budgeted a bit lower than other UBs. But overall CBP has pretty good UBs, and that's good because it feels cool to build them. So I think that many of the bonuses are just are perhaps a tad weak: consider God of the Moon, most of the time this is only +2 culture, maybe +4 and if you are crazy lucky +6. Now look at Rome's UB.

Thanks a lot! And yes, there are a lot of choices to pick from, and I don't plan on adding many more (1 or 2 tops, I'm thinking a trade based one and an exploration based one). BUT, I don't want to get rid of any that we have right now really. I think once you get used to playing them, you'll already know which god you want before the wondow pops up, kinda like the pantheon system is. Since it's all brand new, I think it seems more overwhelming than it is.

Agreed that a lot of the resource-based ones are pretty weak, especially compared to other UBs. We're going to be balancing them out for a while here after we get the "flat" patrons (i.e. Mushdamma, god of Buildings) in a good power spot, because it'll be easier to shoot for that level of power for the more situational ones.

Another thought, perhaps change the resource based ones to improvement based ones as in the Pantheon system. So "mines on improved resources" instead of gold, silver, iron, copper.

I don't really see a reason to do that, as most of the time you're going to be picking a ziggurat only after the city is fairly developed as it is. The pantheons requiring you to improve resources are so you don't get huge bonuses out of the gate without spending time on it (I.E. India, Vanilla Celts, etc). Chances are, by the time you start building a Ziggurat in any city you have a worker headed there or already improving tiles, and the resource ones are what you're going to be upgrading first.

 

[Funak]

I mean if we don't have any problems with it, I could easily change Sirsir to the god of Fishermen, because honestly I think that's probably what he was. Ancient Mesopotamia wasn't known for it's impressive fleet of war ships haha.

Yeah that was pretty much what I thought. I was fine with one Naval god, but two of them?

I like the war guys, though +10% production still seems a little on the weak side, maybe it could be +15XP and +15%Hammer

I have a hard time placing value on it, both those effects stay powerful throughout the game.

For the last one, if we do make it an economic buff rather than military, I like option 2 and 4. I would like to see +1C on sea, as the general theme with Ziggurats is that Sumerian Religion==Culture. If we do 4, we could have the +1C on sea tiles and sea resources get +2C, unless thats too OP (now that I type it out it doesnt seem pretty damn stronk)

Sounds like a bit too much. Sea-tiles are more common than river-tiles for example so that would give this effect a pretty big advantage over for example the Tabya(even if the Tabya have bonus to buildings, bonus production and unlocks one era ahead of the ziggurat)
I guess you could try 1 culture on every sea-tile, but I would definitely stop at that, extra yields on top of resources after that would probably be going too far.

UA: Not a fan of free workers. It's crazy strong in the early game, and I'm basically giving them away later on. At the moment the specialists are all giving production, what's the word on this?
I do like the free pop.

I would consider ditching free workers and transferring that power into the free pop by upping the base by 1. So start with 3 in ancient, 4 classical, etc. One thing that happens, especially in the expansion cities of the classical and beyond, is that I hit this point where I have more people than tiles to work. Labourer doesn't seem to receive the UA bonus however, would be a nice solution if it did. Further, whatever yields you decide on (though I advise against 2 production, v. strong as Funak noted) perhaps add some culture, that would give a little boost to border growth and that would help too.

I like the free workers, and I don't think they are the real reason why the UA feels overpowered, as noted earlier, the free workers are just pretty much a less flexible version of the Carthaginian free gold from settling. It is meant to be powerful early on and fall off later (having the worker spawn at the new city is going to give the effect some value on terra/archipelago maps later on, but that's about it).
The longterm effect is meant to be the specialist bonus, the problem I see is that the specialist bonus comes online before the worker/pop bonus starts falling off, meaning you're seeing too big of a powerspike early on. Think this would be solved by gating the production on the specialists to unlocking later on, possibly starting with 0 and getting +1 at classical era and +1 at medieval(or renaissance)

UU: Is almost strictly dominating the Spearman. Same tech, no combat downside, only a tiny increased production cost, no iron requirement. I think one of these things needs to change.

Could probably increase the hammer cost slightly, I'm not really that worried about a unique unit strictly dominating a non-unique unit, it is fairly common.

UB: It's super awesome. The religious icon popup (choose new belief one) always makes me so happy. I would suggest you keep a lid on the number of Deities though, its quite overwhelming and time consuming. It would feel better, perhaps, to have more fewer, more powerful choices.

They do need some work, even if you don't drop the number down, you probably need to make each of them feel more standout and more unique. You kinda still want a choice there, but the choice should be simpler.
If you settle a coastal city you should maybe be deciding between 3 or 4 different ones, booster coastal tiles, boosted naval production, boosted improvement or some free specialist.

On the magnitude: the fact that you can choose the belief means you will always get 'the best' out of the ziggurat, so it needs to be budgeted a bit lower than other UBs. But overall CBP has pretty good UBs, and that's good because it feels cool to build them. So I think that many of the bonuses are just are perhaps a tad weak: consider God of the Moon, most of the time this is only +2 culture, maybe +4 and if you are crazy lucky +6. Now look at Rome's UB.

Yeah some of them are clearly under-tuned, work in progress, some are probably crazy over-tuned, the scientist one for example. I don't even remember which one the God of the Moon is, but yeah, God of Marshes is another one.

Another thought, perhaps change the resource based ones to improvement based ones as in the Pantheon system. So "mines on improved resources" instead of gold, silver, iron, copper.

Yeah I was kinda on this level as well, no idea if it would break the immersion however, but then again God of Wine and Festivals could probably have been associated with Tobacco, Sugar and other plantation resources if the ancient Sumerians had access to those things . I mean Festivals is a pretty broad term.

 

[Sun Pope]

Little thing about the War Guys :
I would find it frustrating to have a +15XP on one version and +X% prod on another, because you actually want to have both of those together.
(Yes, you will want to have aboth a wine-booster and a sugar-booster in a wine-and-sugar-city, but I feel like this issue is diferent).

On the other hand, I don't think that +10-15% prod is actually felt by the player. the +15XP is good (15 more than 10 or even 20, because it fits with the usual levels). And if it doesn't feels enough (but I doubt it), I would more easily go toward a misc promotion or a yield boost than prod boost.

Yeah, we're gonna lump the XP and % production together, at 15 each to start I think. We can adjust this later after i release the new patch.

Sounds like a bit too much. Sea-tiles are more common than river-tiles for example so that would give this effect a pretty big advantage over for example the Tabya(even if the Tabya have bonus to buildings, bonus production and unlocks one era ahead of the ziggurat)
I guess you could try 1 culture on every sea-tile, but I would definitely stop at that, extra yields on top of resources after that would probably be going too far.

Cool, works for me.

They do need some work, even if you don't drop the number down, you probably need to make each of them feel more standout and more unique. You kinda still want a choice there, but the choice should be simpler.
If you settle a coastal city you should maybe be deciding between 3 or 4 different ones, booster coastal tiles, boosted naval production, boosted improvement or some free specialist.


Yeah some of them are clearly under-tuned, work in progress, some are probably crazy over-tuned, the scientist one for example. I don't even remember which one the God of the Moon is, but yeah, God of Marshes is another one.

Yeah, besides balancing we should try to make them more unique, but remember a lot of the uniqueness is already in the fact that you can pick them, so we don't necessarily have to make each patron revolutionary.

Yeah I was kinda on this level as well, no idea if it would break the immersion however, but then again God of Wine and Festivals could probably have been associated with Tobacco, Sugar and other plantation resources if the ancient Sumerians had access to those things . I mean Festivals is a pretty broad term.

Well, the actual God was the god of Alcohol (Apparently Sumerians had discovered how to make beer?), but i changed it to include incense and renamed it to festivals as well since we really don't have a Whiskey or Beer resource. I suppose I could have used wheat but thats a bit of a stretch

How about making it the god of indulgence instead, and make it do something with wine, tobacco, sugar, and incense or something?

Also, what do you guys think about my proposed labourers UA? (Its a few posts up)


-Pope

 

[Funak]

Also, what do you guys think about my proposed labourers UA? (Its a few posts up)

I like the existing one

 

[Sun Pope]

I like the existing one

I think you may be the only one

I honestly think it's okay because it's not the whole UA, but the +2 Production is OP and rather than make it scale by era, I'd rather kill two birds with one stone, maybe three.

Bird one: The current UA is boring and OP. (Hey Korea you have a friend now)

Bird two: Settling cities late game nulls the population boost sometimes, as you dont have enough tiles to work all the citizens and they starve, bringing the pop down as fast as it was gained. For the player, this is easily fixed by buying tiles if you have the money, but the AI probably wont be able to see this. Also, I don't want to force people to buy tiles, so giving the labourers food production would stabalise your population as well as let you play around with them early game even when you dont have to

Bird Three?: Labourers aren't used really by any other civ, so this could make sumer more unique in playstyle

 

[Funak]

I think you may be the only one

I honestly think it's okay because it's not the whole UA, but the +2 Production is OP and rather than make it scale by era, I'd rather kill two birds with one stone, maybe three.

Bird one: The current UA is boring and OP. (Hey Korea you have a friend now)

Well, the boring part as you mentioned is the +2 production to specialists, which isn't exactly going away with your suggestion.

I don't think laborers is a very fun mechanic personally, I might be alone on this however.

Bird two: Settling cities late game nulls the population boost sometimes, as you dont have enough tiles to work all the citizens and they starve, bringing the pop down as fast as it was gained. For the player, this is easily fixed by buying tiles if you have the money, but the AI probably wont be able to see this. Also, I don't want to force people to buy tiles, so giving the labourers food production would stabalise your population as well as let you play around with them early game even when you dont have to

Bird Three?: Labourers aren't used really by any other civ, so this could make sumer more unique in playstyle

Haven't actually ran into this problem, I settled all my cities in ancient era or classical giving me exactly +1 pop .
Well I did settle 3 cities in renaissance era, but those were using Pioneers which still does not provide extra pop so I didn't run into a problem there either.

I really don't think running out of tiles is an actual problem unless you're settling the desert/mountain or purposely avoids building monuments/specialist-buildings. And you're using settlers in the modern era.

 

[Sun Pope]

Well as usual funak it seems we are at a disagreement Ill see what the rest of the peanut gallery thinks before I change it to your balance fix or my idea, and if noone can agree with each other Ill have to use some executive power

 

[Funak]

Well as usual funak it seems we are at a disagreement

Well, if we weren't this would not be any fun, would it?

 

[Sun Pope]

True, as much as I like to have absolute power I see the value in being told I'm wrong when I am heheh

 

[hokath]

I'm not really that worried about a unique unit strictly dominating a non-unique unit, it is fairly common.

Can you give me some examples?

Dawn of Man: Cities start with extra population based on era, and start the game with a worker. Labourers produce +2 Food and Specialists Provide +1 [Yield]

Labourer and Specialist stuff still scaling with era? If not then +% production sounds good. I kind of like the whole (over)population theme though, maybe make it food (or %growth)? You've got a lot of options tbh.

I would just drop the worker altogether.

 

[Sun Pope]

Can you give me some examples?


Labourer and Specialist stuff still scaling with era? If not then +% production sounds good. I kind of like the whole (over)population theme though, maybe make it food (or %growth)? You've got a lot of options tbh.

I would just drop the worker altogether.

Most UU's are just better than the non-unique option of that general area...for example minutemen totally outclass pikemen and the Panzer is way more useful that an infantry.

Nah, the Labourer/Specialist would stay flat. i'm leaning towards %production for specialists and flat food Labourers. I could make the labourers produce more food per era, but their production already goes up with techs so it might be overkill.

I think one worker is fine, but if AI gilga continues to dominate 10/10 times on the next patch I'll drop it after alpha.

 

[Sun Pope]

Progress update: I am now making just one worker spawn when the capital is founded. This seems to be a middle ground between the parties involved with the disbanding of this aspect totally and the party that wants a worker in each city. We can change it anytime in the future, so lets just try it out. Gods are being balanced and shaped more. Look below for more info. Specialists brought down to +1Production for now, I'm working out how to make it a percent. Labourers give +2 Food. I know not everyone likes this, but lets try it out. Vulture is unchanged, as I haven't noticed my wars using them being significantly easier against the AI. We'll keep an eye on their power though. Still working on the Leader Icon, and Gilgamesh now says something when you first greet him.

Now, let's get the Deities in a comprehensible list.

So, we now currently have this list for the next patch:

"Specialist Line"

Nabu (Wisdom): +2 Science, Scientist slot
Mushdamma (Buildings/Crafts): +4 Hammer, Engineer
Papsukkal (Messenger): +4 Gold, Civil Servant
Anu (Heavens): +4 Culture, Artist

Notes: Papsukkal has gold because IDK what else goes with Civil Servant. (Maybe +1 Paper?) Any ideas? If we change it, we could also add a god that gives +4G and a merchant slot.



"War Line"

Nergal (war): +15XP, +15% Production on land units
Ishkur (storms): +15XP, +15% Production on Naval Units

Notes: We've already talked about this a bit, but if you have anything to say say it now or momentarily hold your peace



"Y on Resource X/Tile X Line"

Lahar (Livestock): +2C on Cattle, Horse, and Sheep resources
Ki (Earth): +2C on Silver, Gold, Copper, and Iron
Sin (Moon): +2C on Perfume, Jade, Amber, and Lapis Lazuli
Ninkasi (Festivals):+1C/G on Wine and Incense (stacks with temple base)
Ningikuga (Marshes/Funak's Bane): +1Food and +3C on Marshes
Sirsir (Fishermen/Sea): +1C on sea tiles
Ngeshtin-ana (Cold/Snow): +2Food on Tundra, +3 on Snow
Enbilulu: +1 Faith on river tiles
Sumugan: +1 Faith and +1 Culture for flood plains

Notes: Ngeshtin-ana has been buffed greatly. Lahar changed to Horse instead of Bison. Ninkasi desc made clearer. Sirsir reworked. Lets balance these after the rest are done.



"Does nothing" Line

Erishkigal, Goddess of the Underworld
Azbu, God of Judgement/Humanity

Notes: These deities are cool, but I can't come up with much for them. I might replace Azbu with Asaruludi, the god of protection, and give it defense modifiers and city HP as well as a yield for defensive buildings. Any thoughts, especially on Erishkigal (because I want to keep her :} )?

I'll give us some time to work on these before the next version rolls out, so expect something around Wednesday.


Just a heads up, here are some Gods I would like to add, but probably not until the Beta.

"Proposed Deities"

Lilu, Wandering Goddess: Recon and naval units trained in this city gain +1 Sight and Movement. (Exploration God, could be cool. But not useful later on. Maybe come up with ways to make this a viable building and have the scouting stuff be extra on top)

Marduk, God of Fortune: +4G, Merchant slot (See "Specialist Line")


-Pope

 

[Funak]

Progress update: I am now making just one worker spawn when the capital is founded. This seems to be a middle ground between the parties involved with the disbanding of this aspect totally and the party that wants a worker in each city. We can change it anytime in the future, so lets just try it out. Gods are being balanced and shaped more. Look below for more info. Specialists brought down to +1Production for now, I'm working out how to make it a percent. Labourers give +2 Food. I know not everyone likes this, but lets try it out. Vulture is unchanged, as I haven't noticed my wars using them being significantly easier against the AI. We'll keep an eye on their power though. Still working on the Leader Icon, and Gilgamesh now says something when you first greet him.

I really don't understand why you would ever boost laborers, they aren't there to be used, they are there to convert food to production at a terrible rate once you've grown your city out of control.
The only two possibilities this can lead to is either that the laborers are good enough to actually use over regular tiles, which sounds really silly to me. Alternatively laborers are still not worth using over regular tiles, which means the UA does nothing.


About the worker situation, to me getting one free worker is not a compromise, it's just an out of place extra worker.
The extra workers in my suggestion followed a theme, they were based around expansion, if you expand fast and early enough you're not going to need to build workers. I have no idea what starting out with one worker would represent truth be told.

Now, let's get the Deities in a comprehensible list.

So, we now currently have this list for the next patch:

"Specialist Line"

Nabu (Wisdom): +2 Science, Scientist slot
Mushdamma (Buildings/Crafts): +4 Hammer, Engineer
Papsukkal (Messenger): +4 Gold, Civil Servant
Anu (Heavens): +4 Culture, Artist

Notes: Papsukkal has gold because IDK what else goes with Civil Servant. (Maybe +1 Paper?) Any ideas? If we change it, we could also add a god that gives +4G and a merchant slot.

Gold should be fine for Papsukkal. I'm somewhat on the fence if the numbers on all these should be brought down to +3, +4 and a specialist feels pretty strong.

"War Line"

Nergal (war): +15XP, +15% Production on land units
Ishkur (storms): +15XP, +15% Production on Naval Units

Notes: We've already talked about this a bit, but if you have anything to say say it now or momentarily hold your peace

I still do think that 15xp and +15% production is slightly too much, but we will see.

"Does nothing" Line

Erishkigal, Goddess of the Underworld
Azbu, God of Judgement/Humanity

Notes: These deities are cool, but I can't come up with much for them. I might replace Azbu with Asaruludi, the god of protection, and give it defense modifiers and city HP as well as a yield for defensive buildings. Any thoughts, especially on Erishkigal (because I want to keep her :} )?

I guess Underworld could give you yields in the city for destroying enemy units (like the Jellingstones, Colosseum, Burial Tomb and Acropolis, and probably something else I forgot), along with some slightly improved base-yields on the building. Not exactly amazing or anything, but I think it could get the job done.

I do feel like having one of the Patrons adding a point of happiness to the building could be fun, I just don't know what would be reasonable to have along with it.
Only unique building in the game right now that adds happiness is the Satrap's Court, adding +1 happiness, +1 'golden age point and gold' for every 5(6?) citizens along with +2 base gold.


"Proposed Deities"

Lilu, Wandering Goddess: Recon and naval units trained in this city gain +1 Sight and Movement. (Exploration God, could be cool. But not useful later on. Maybe come up with ways to make this a viable building and have the scouting stuff be extra on top)

Marduk, God of Fortune: +4G, Merchant slot (See "Specialist Line")[/QUOTE]
Not a fan of giving units the great lighthouse buff, in fact I feel like getting any unique improvements out of this unique building is slightly out of place. Anyways I argued about adding more movement and sight promotions into the game in the Venice discussion because it cheapens the things that already provide this effect. And I feel the same way about this.

Merchant based Ziggurat makes sense, there are already others that give specialists, having another one would be decent enough.
If this happens however I do believe that one of them would have to drop the +4 gold in favor of something else.

 

[Sun Pope]

I really don't understand why you would ever boost laborers, they aren't there to be used, they are there to convert food to production at a terrible rate once you've grown your city out of control.
The only two possibilities this can lead to is either that the laborers are good enough to actually use over regular tiles, which sounds really silly to me. Alternatively laborers are still not worth using over regular tiles, which means the UA does nothing.

Well you're probably right, but I still want to try it out. I think early game before you improve your tiles, working specialists could be useful to outproduce working tiles, and then later in the game when founding cities your extra pop wont immediately starve. I've upped the settle rate in the eras with pioneers (I think Sumer Pioneers give 6 pop (3 from pioneer and 3 from Ua) and then 7 two eras later) so if you settle near a mountain or desert you would immediately lose some of your UA from starving. The labourers giving food will stabalise that, if nothing else.

About the worker situation, to me getting one free worker is not a compromise, it's just an out of place extra worker.
The extra workers in my suggestion followed a theme, they were based around expansion, if you expand fast and early enough you're not going to need to build workers. I have no idea what starting out with one worker would represent truth be told.

Again, I'm not sure the free workers are pushing things over the top and causing AI gilgamesh to almost double everyones score, but I've done some testing and it's on average brought his power down a lot. we're still in alpha so we have to play around woth things

Gold should be fine for Papsukkal. I'm somewhat on the fence if the numbers on all these should be brought down to +3, +4 and a specialist feels pretty strong.

Hmm, I think you're probably right. Anyone else have an opinion?

I guess Underworld could give you yields in the city for destroying enemy units (like the Jellingstones, Colosseum, Burial Tomb and Acropolis, and probably something else I forgot), along with some slightly improved base-yields on the building. Not exactly amazing or anything, but I think it could get the job done.

I do feel like having one of the Patrons adding a point of happiness to the building could be fun, I just don't know what would be reasonable to have along with it.
Only unique building in the game right now that adds happiness is the Satrap's Court, adding +1 happiness, +1 'golden age point and gold' for every 5(6?) citizens along with +2 base gold.

Good idea on Erish, could work. As for happiness, I thought we were gonna stay away from that?

"Proposed Deities"

Lilu, Wandering Goddess: Recon and naval units trained in this city gain +1 Sight and Movement. (Exploration God, could be cool. But not useful later on. Maybe come up with ways to make this a viable building and have the scouting stuff be extra on top)

Marduk, God of Fortune: +4G, Merchant slot (See "Specialist Line")

Not a fan of giving units the great lighthouse buff, in fact I feel like getting any unique improvements out of this unique building is slightly out of place. Anyways I argued about adding more movement and sight promotions into the game in the Venice discussion because it cheapens the things that already provide this effect. And I feel the same way about this.

Merchant based Ziggurat makes sense, there are already others that give specialists, having another one would be decent enough.
If this happens however I do believe that one of them would have to drop the +4 gold in favor of something else.

Yeah, perhaps +1 paper for papsukkal, or a %production on diplo units. As for the scout god, I'm just throwing ideas out there for one