Summons

[Silverkiss]

I never used summoners... I do use mages, but I just don´t like summoners, prefer to spend time training other units and/or mages.

 

[daladinn]

ok , i was the one mithrus had done this too because i wanted to see how many it would take for him to kill it. here is the thing though...

there is absolutely NO way that ANYONE other then the 2 civs with summoning could realistically use a force like mithrus was useing offensively. defensively when you can make use of your own roads and such these things are wicked ugly with a move 5 they are insane. take them into hostile territory and that move 5 only means one thing.... that they are within easy strikeing range when the summons are NOT present.

currently there is no stronger defensive force then the summons. but let me break down wahts really happening for a bit more understanding.

1 - eater of dreams - the most feared unit of the game capable of summoning soo many wraiths you will prolly have a heart attack AND being capable of every single summoning promotion. OH and BTW these wraiths will most likely last 3 rounds for a total move of like 12. only 3 allowed.

2 - summoners - the T4 summoning unit capable of summoning the highend summons and having teh bonus of +2 move range on these summons make them highly effective. fortunatly you can only have 3 of these.

3+4 - high priests and inquisitors - the T4 summoning unit that makes people fear the ashen viel. capable of summoning both wraiths and balors as well as useing pilar of fire and ring of fire. the lack of spell extension can be bothersome offensively.

5 - conjurors - T3 here you see the dreaded sand lion and the chaos maurader. both highly useful and capable of getting spell extension.

6 - ritualists - T3 here if you went for ashen veil again you have access to sand lions and nightmares. here you also gain the respected ring of fire spell.The BIGGEST thign to note however is the rate of xp gain on the ritualists (its insane).

for various reasons as above it makes Os-gabala insanely powerful as a leader , even more so if you ever let her manage to get the ashen vel religion. nothing worse then fast exping summoners with the summoning trait.

however and in conclusion you always have to deal with the fact that moving in hostile territory is at best slow in the current settings. until some of the horse fixes from mania make it into the live FFH little can relaly be done. summoned and conjured units will always be your best DEFNSIVE units and until you can manage the summoning trait thats all they are really for (unless you have basically won by overkill regardless).

 

[eerr]

summoning trait is one of the problems-cut it down to an extra turn(2 instead of 3 net) with the summoning trait to cut this in half(make heroic str II give an extra turn on summons additionally, so 3 turns isn't out of the question-but not spammable)

aside from this, empowered promotions nerfed the summons just fine-

its the ais that can't deal with defending or attacking summoned creatures.
in multiplayer its fairly balanced

 

[loki1232]

Well its easy enough to destroy a summonign civ simply by attacking them early on.

 

[Sureshot]

maybe if summoning let your summons last 3 turns BUT the 1 summon per summoner thing was applied on 1 turn summons as well (i dont think it is). then 3 turn summons wouldnt mean 3 times the number of summons, just longer lasting summons like the trait implies.

 

[MrManNo1]

I don't really think there's a problem with summoning. However, I like Sureshot's idea of limiting a Summoner trait's number of summons.

 

[Nikis-Knight]

maybe if summoning let your summons last 3 turns BUT the 1 summon per summoner thing was applied on 1 turn summons as well (i dont think it is). then 3 turn summons wouldnt mean 3 times the number of summons, just longer lasting summons like the trait implies.

Then what would be the advantage? On turn 2 & 3, your summons would simply have less strength, and therefore be weaker than a non-summoner civs' summon units.
Yes, they could be promoted, but a fresh summons would probably still be better more often as not.

edit: well, I guess then they would be able to attack from farther away. But not too much of an advantage, imo.

 

[Sureshot]

also as soon as they die you can summon a new one, and promotions are usually a high point, bringing them back to nearly 100% health and getting them atleast 1 promotion

so, you can still somewhat do the "store up" method, but only with 2, since you attack with one to soften, it dies, then you summon the other one and attack the same turn

distance too,ability to promote, and 2 per turn if you get it killed, id say thats still pretty useful

 

[Nikis-Knight]

ah, okay, good point. Might be worth a test.

 

[Sureshot]

also, it would promote variety, you could summon 3 different summons and still do what you could before, but it would take more magic spheres

 

[eerr]

also, it would promote variety, you could summon 3 different summons and still do what you could before, but it would take more magic spheres

only one of each summon max?
then what would the point in having 3 mana of one type....
or maybe you can summon a max of one of each kind of summon for each mana you control(if i didn't word that right, it would be one water elemental and one djinn per one water mana)

 

[Silverkiss]

What she meant was 1 summom alive per summoner... If you have 3 summoners and 1 water mana, you still can summom 3 water elemental. But you won´t be able to summom Water Elementals again with those 3 summoners until the first water elementals die.

 

[Gamestation]

Would increasing the upkeep cost on arcane units make the game seem more balanced? Summons are more effective when there are many conjurors and summoners which is something that only a human player would shoot for. The person who goes for the heavy magic path will suffer in tech and/or production because of how expensive keeping the adepts and up would be. Or that's what I'm thinking would happen if upkeep cost was raised on arcane units.

 

[eerr]

What she meant was 1 summom alive per summoner... If you have 3 summoners and 1 water mana, you still can summom 3 water elemental. But you won´t be able to summom Water Elementals again with those 3 summoners until the first water elementals die.

Would increasing the upkeep cost on arcane units make the game seem more balanced? Summons are more effective when there are many conjurors and summoners which is something that only a human player would shoot for. The person who goes for the heavy magic path will suffer in tech and/or production because of how expensive keeping the adepts and up would be. Or that's what I'm thinking would happen if upkeep cost was raised on arcane units.

just remember- some of these things may be tough to code, try to find easy alternatives to hit summons with the nerf bat-without actually turning them into living(or undead) nerf balls

 

[Sureshot]

the code already exists for non-one-turn summons

 

[eerr]

the code already exists for non-one-turn summons

i suggested going the easy route for 3-2 turns of summons for summoner civs already-i was just saying that keeping track of summons, and additional upkeep for units would have to be coded, though its not impossible or anything.
(to echo what kael has said elsewhere)

 

[Gamestation]

Another mod managed to change upkeep costs of units so it should be possible to get it into this mod.

Here it is: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=175762

support for Great Peoples set to -3.

 

[katika]

You can only have as many skeletons/tigers as you have units that can cast that spell, so applying this to all summons should be very easy.

 

[eerr]

You can only have as many skeletons/tigers as you have units that can cast that spell, so applying this to all summons should be very easy.

but then, its not that simple....
if the summons stick around for three turns-
then you can have three summoners in three corners of your empire able to summon an army of say, three demons at just one of those summoners.
or using just one of three for all three summons so that one can maximize his combat.
it doesn't seem like an intended side effect

though it does seem like a soultion to the "triple horde" effect

 

[Silverkiss]

Thats not a problem...

The fact that you can always summon another creature each turn (as is now) is worse than being able to summom 3 creatures in 3 turns...