Swedish Hens

[Lillefix]

Swedish didn't have gender neutral words before?

I don't understand the problem, I guess. If someone is coming to my party, and I don't know the gender of this person, there is no need to create a new word in Polish, English or German. Words already exist to handle this situation. For example, in English you would say, "Oh, so they're coming to my party? Who is this person?". In Polish you defer to the word you're using. So if the word is "person", that's a male word, so you say "he". Or you can actually avoid using any sort of gender-specific word and just say: "Person coming?" or something similar.

Can something like this not be done in Swedish? Why the need for a new word? And why now, after hundreds of years after the language first came into use?

Those are very timely questions(Swedish and English are very comparable, there's not much lost in translation), and I think the answer to all this is politics.

 

[Lohrenswald]

"Person" is a male word, but you still have to say "her" if it's a woman

Does any language you speak have a gender neutral singular third person preposition, Warpus?

 

[thecrazyscot]

"Person" is a male word, but you still have to say "her" if it's a woman

What? How? "Person" is a gender-neutral word.

 

[warpus]

"Person" is a male word, but you still have to say "her" if it's a woman

You don't though. If you don't know the gender of the person, and you just say "person", in Polish you would say "he", because the word "person" is a male word. You would definitely not say "she" if you didn't know the gender of the person, unless you're guessing, or if you're using a different word than "person".. For example, if this person was late to your party, you could say: "Is this cow coming??" or "Is this {expletive} coming?" and in some cases you could then say she, because "cow" is a female word and so on.

Does any language you speak have a gender neutral singular third person preposition, Warpus?

I'm not sure, I don't now enough linguistics to really say - but my point is that there already exist words to handle virtually every situation. So I just don't understand why this "Hen" word is necessary.

Mind you someone said it's due to politics, and that seems like a good answer to me, because nothing else makes sense. Then again, I don't understand any of Swedish - maybe there is indeed such a need for such a word in the language.

 

[thecrazyscot]

Furthermore, "person" is derived from a feminine Latin root.

 

[Lohrenswald]

You don't though. If you don't know the gender of the person, and you just say "person", in Polish you would say "he", because the word "person" is a male word. You would definitely not say "she" if you didn't know the gender of the person, unless you're guessing, or if you're using a different word than "person".. For example, if this person was late to your party, you could say: "Is this cow coming??" or "Is this {expletive} coming?" and in some cases you could then say she, because "cow" is a female word and so on.

I was talking about swedish. At least, if it's like norwegian, which I think it is in this regard, "person" is a masculine noun, but there is no basis to refer to someone as "he" just because she previously was refered to as "person"

"This person, what did she do?" for example

 

[thecrazyscot]

In that case, everything I said was irrelevant.

 

[warpus]

I was talking about swedish. At least, if it's like norwegian, which I think it is in this regard, "person" is a masculine noun, but there is no basis to refer to someone as "he" just because she previously was refered to as "person"

"This person, what did she do?" for example

Ah, I see. It works in Polish, because.. Well, I'm not sure, that's how the language just works I guess. If you're talking about X, and X is a masculine word such as "person", then you say "he".

It's not to imply that the person is male, or that all people are male or something, but in Polish words are either male, female, or neuter - just the way the language is structured, it's not related in any way as far as I know to actual penises or vaginas.

 

[sophie]

Swedish didn't have gender neutral words before?

I don't understand the problem, I guess. If someone is coming to my party, and I don't know the gender of this person, there is no need to create a new word in Polish, English or German. Words already exist to handle this situation. For example, in English you would say, "Oh, so they're coming to my party? Who is this person?". In Polish you defer to the word you're using. So if the word is "person", that's a male word, so you say "he". Or you can actually avoid using any sort of gender-specific word and just say: "Person coming?" or something similar.

Can something like this not be done in Swedish? Why the need for a new word? And why now, after hundreds of years after the language first came into use?

Person sounds really stilted, and isn't something I'd typically use unless I was trying to be really diplomatic. I'd ordinarily just use "they" as a gender-ambiguous, impersonal pronoun. The problem isn't a lack of genderless pronoun, it's a lack of easy-to-use, intuitive gender-ambiguous pronoun. The main problem with using a word like "person" is you often end up having to tie yourself into all sorts of syntactic knots to make the sentence work. English has a gender-neutral pronoun "it" but you don't really call people "it". So you need a pronoun that is "gender-ambiguous", not "gender-neutral" which implies an objectification of the (grammatical) object of conversation. English itself introduced a gender-ambiguous pronoun to solve a problem in almost the exact way Swedish has done here. "Ze" which has the benefit of being both gender-ambiguous and intuitive; you can slot it in anywhere you'd use a 3rd person singular nominative pronoun (and zem(?) for objective pronouns). However unlike "hen" Ze has not seen adoption by major news or academic publications. English speakers tend to favor "he or she", "s/he", or "they", however, again, these end up stilted and awkward syntactically.

So I guess in summary I don't really see what the big deal is. In a world where people are more conscious of inclusivity, the problems of predesignated gender norms, and identity, why shouldn't we have a pronoun which reflects this new, updated reality?

 

[Borachio]

If there's a genuine linguistic need for a neuter pronoun, I'm pretty sure one willl emerge, if it hasn't already.

 

[sophie]

If there's a genuine linguistic need for a neuter pronoun, I'm pretty sure one willl emerge.

There is. I use the impersonal they all the damn time. I just wish we had a better alternative. Because "ze" kind of sounds dumb.

 

[Lohrenswald]

I've read some rather old books, and they often used the gender neutral pronoun "this" (actually norwegian "denne", but that means "this")

"I saw a person walking down the steet. This was wearing a black coat."

 

[Borachio]

There is. I use the impersonal they all the damn time. I just wish we had a better alternative. Because "ze" kind of sounds dumb.

Indeed. "They" is used in this way. Because of the linguistic need for it.

And you're right, "Ze" sounds dumb, and probably won't catch on because most people will think so too; and "they" is just waiting in the sidelines to be accepted as "the" singular 3rd person pronoun.

 

[Kyriakos]

Indeed. "They" is used in this way. Because of the linguistic need for it.

And you're right, "Ze" sounds dumb, and probably won't catch on because most people will think so too; and "they" is just waiting in the sidelines to be accepted as "the" singular 3rd person pronoun.

Ze germans.

 

[Borachio]

*groan*

Dear me!

 

[sophie]

I've read some rather old books, and they often used the gender neutral pronoun "this" (actually norwegian "denne", but that means "this")

"I saw a person walking down the steet. This was wearing a black coat."

I don't speak for all English speakers, but at least for me and the people I've talked to, I don't think I've ever seen "this" used on its own as a demonstrative pronoun. I'm sure it was used in the past, in the same way that German today has "diese/r/etc." and Dutch has "die/deze/dit/dat", but in English it's "this one" and "that one" now.

And again, there's a distinction between "gender-neutral" and "gender-ambiguous". English has a gender-neutral pronoun - "it". The problem is with the way gender-neutral is employed grammatically in English, gender-neutral terms tend to be associated with inanimate objects, and it's a bit of a faux-pas to call living things "it". Even beyond people. Note reactions you get when you try to call a cat or a dog an "it". I don't know for sure how different it is in other Germanic languages with a more robust grammatical gender system. English only uses grammatical gender to distinguish between literal genders - he/she, actor/tress, waiter/ress, etc. So in English you'd get a lot of glaring if you called a baby an "it". But, for example, in German, a baby is an it. It's "das Baby". It's "das Kind" and "das Mädchen" Not der or die Baby/Kind/Mädchen.

 

[Borachio]

Oh. I think you can call a neonate "it". If you're really, really careful.

"So and so's just given birth"
"Oh yes? And what is it?"
"It's a baby!"

*general hilarity*

 

[Cheetah]

I've read some rather old books, and they often used the gender neutral pronoun "this" (actually norwegian "denne", but that means "this")

"I saw a person walking down the steet. This was wearing a black coat."

"Denne (personen) var kledd i en svart frakk."?

It's correct, but it gives the impression of talking about someone "far" away IMO. So another level removed from the third person/object of the sentence. Akin to "kono" (this), "sono" (that) and "ano" (that, over there) in Japanese.

 

[classical_hero]

There is. I use the impersonal they all the damn time. I just wish we had a better alternative. Because "ze" kind of sounds dumb.

Because that is a stupid word. It makes no sense in English since our language is different and forcing construct to a language is far too artificial. I don't understand the need for a neutral word in English. We already have an impersonal word of "it". You confused gender neutral with impersonal.

 

[Lohrenswald]

"Denne (personen) var kledd i en svart frakk."?

It's correct, but it gives the impression of talking about someone "far" away IMO. So another level removed from the third person/object of the sentence. Akin to "kono" (this), "sono" (that) and "ano" (that, over there) in Japanese.

Despite the avatar I don't know Japanese

Men ja: "Denne var kledd i en svart frakk"

It's all over the place in for example the translations of Agathe Christie's books.