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Team 1 Starting Position

Discussion in 'Team Kazakhstan' started by Sullla, Nov 26, 2008.

  1. cav scout

    cav scout The Continuum

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    No problem, save attached.

    Please note that i'm not patched up to 3.17, I hope this file will load for those of you who are.
     
  2. Indiansmoke

    Indiansmoke Deity

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    Edit...actually it does load :)
     
  3. Indiansmoke

    Indiansmoke Deity

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    After doing some testing, with the test file that cav scout provided it looks like worker first is the way to go!!

    Tech path: agriculture, bronze, wheel pottery.

    No early slaving...

    The 6 food tile that improved corn gives seems too good to be delayed.

    The results were... settler came out on turn 30... second worker on turn 33 and pottery teched at turn 34.

    Build order...worker by working corn, then workboat by working corn (and plains hill as soon as size 2), worker improves corn and then mines unforested hill..chops river...and chops second river
     
  4. Kaleb

    Kaleb Deity

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    Sorry to fuss, but what we should do is: explore NW - then settle where we are if this explore doesn't reveal any new resource

    Ooh goody, I want to get into that test save too! Only real reason I can see to go for the clams first off if what you say is true, is because we'll get more :commerce: at the start - this could then help us in the race to get an early religion. If we focus on growth now though, hopefully this will put us in a strong position to get a religion later.

    Smoke: how long did it take to get settler and pottery going the other route (ie. workboat, workers, chop forest, farm etc)
     
  5. Indiansmoke

    Indiansmoke Deity

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    What I realized from testing the start is that you actually don't get any more commerce by going workboat first!!!

    That is because if you start with worker you work the corn which gives 1 commerce...while with workboat you work plains hill....so that is 6 commerce lost in the beggining.

    You make up for it by working the clam, but then with worker first you grow faster so you work more tiles (that hill gives a commerce). So overall you might lose very little commerce by going worker first...not even worth comparing to the benefit of working a
    6F 1C tile as soon as possible.

    As for early religion...how early? We have to go agriculture, bronze for sure...then wheel pottery seems the best way...after pottery we can go for religion depending on the situation....but going for an early religion before wheel pottery would be bad IMO.....even if both early religions are lost because we went pottery, we can grab mono or col, because we will be teching very fast with the cottages....
     
  6. Kaleb

    Kaleb Deity

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    Ok, I'm sold on the idea of going worker 1st by working the corn. 6:food: 1:commerce: is massive.

    One other little thing to think about: in 3.17 you get more Barb galleys. It really is a factor on higher difficulty levels as your food resources will often get pillaged. Is it much of a factor on Monarch though?

    exactly. CoL would probably be the natural option as if we have a well cottaged capital CS and Bureaucracy will be really sweet! Also if we just miss out on Conf then we can have another bite of the cherry by going for Taoism.

    Another thing to think about is that we may want to start exploring along the coast early. If we find another civ along the coast we should think of getting sailing so we can trade with them and open borders.
     
  7. donsig

    donsig Low level intermediary

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    What are the chances someone will get CoL before us, like through the Oracle?

    We really get 6 food on that corn with a farm? Given the two expansive teams we're facing we do need to do whatever we can to expand fast. Expanding and getting bronze working seem to be more important now than getting a religion.
     
  8. Provolution

    Provolution Sage of Quatronia

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    I agree with worker working the corn first, that is the best way for the next turns.
     
  9. Herviov

    Herviov Chieftain

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    I'm going to look around that save. I'm coming with my results in an hour or so.
     
  10. Herviov

    Herviov Chieftain

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    I applied a different strategy. Tell me if you like the results:

    Worked the clam tile and built workboat. Worked plain hill when second pop.
    Research: Bronze/agriculture/wheels/pottery (pottery on 34th turn)

    Got the work boat after 13 turns
    Adopted slavery
    Rushed the worker to be in synch with agriculture
    Got a warrior due to late rush
    Got the barrack started (a third)
    Settler rushed on turn 33 out at 34
    pop=1 but will grow very quick (both clam/corn/hill ready)

    Briefly: More tech, settler a little later, slavery adopted and population is low. Who likes it?
     
  11. Herviov

    Herviov Chieftain

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    I looked back at the results from Indian smoke and he did have teched Bronze. Ignore my previous post

    The corn strategy appears to be the best

    3 pop./good tech/early settler/early second worker/city ready to hatch a couple of warrior for defence.
     
  12. Kaleb

    Kaleb Deity

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    Yeah, I think corn/worker first is way forward. As long as we have the techs we need for the worker we don't need to rush tech as the only benefit for that would be if we are after an early religion.

    If we get (stone and) pyramids we have even less need of religion with the +3 for happiness. But if we don't have stone and don't have any happiness resources then not having a religion may start to hurt.
     
  13. Herviov

    Herviov Chieftain

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    In that case: let's whip our way to early expansion
     
  14. cav scout

    cav scout The Continuum

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    Ok I have played a plethora of test games and I concur that building a worker first and going after the corn gives us the fastest start.

    The only reason we would want to work the clam first would be to get the :commerce: to compete for an early religion. Team 5 has mysticism, so they might be able to sweep all three early religions. We could compete for one of them but it would be kinda risky. I think it would be better to shoot for Confucianism and Christianity.

    We are philosophical and I see a chance for us to exploit this trait. If we go after early wonders we can get some great person points goings before anyone else. We could bulb both Theocracy and Code of Laws with Great Prophets, beating the other teams to these techs and religions. Here is how we do it:

    Build Order: worker -> workboat -> settler -> stonehenge (turn 39) -> warrior x2 -> oracle (turn 52)

    Tech: Agriculture -> mysticism -> bronze working -> meditation -> priesthood -> wheel -> pottery -> metal casting (turn 52)

    I have all of the micromanagement figured out and its extremely efficient and competive. We would probably end up foiling the other teams' slingshot strategies as well. What do you guys think?
     
  15. Indiansmoke

    Indiansmoke Deity

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    Ok it seems we all agree on worker first :)

    I am not fond to the idea of early wonders...every early wonder means less cities...and also great prophets I don't like much...i would much rather use philosophical to get early scientists...but lets wait and see if the map offers stone or marble..
     
  16. Provolution

    Provolution Sage of Quatronia

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    Let us think about how to leverage our philosophical and financial traits, when we do our moves. This means we want to leverage food for great people bonus, not for slaving. This means we need to mine those hills, not start some slaving commune.
    Our redcoats come way down into the game, so does the Stock Exchange. I say we run a robust strategy leveraging our land development with our two traits, not mess around.

    Also, we obviously need a strong port already now, which calls for a coastal location getting both clam and corn. Water is also a safe place to have food, during sieges.

    Gauging the competition, Persian, Maya, Dutch and Portuguese, gives us a run for the money also in the naval race. We are not likely to circumsize the world (I know its circumnavigate, in case some mediocre, smirk fellow tries to point out I dont know what circumsize is, but here it is, as a pun...), as the carracks will outrun and outcolonize us.
    Mayans and Persians are much stronger on the offense in the ancient era, so we need to preempt that with a good defense. The Dutch will be, as the Portuguese, a good ally, that we can defend ourselves against these savages (Persians and Mayans) that literally begs for being colonized and enlightened by the true Kazakhstani Britons (Borat would be a good name for our king, now that Cohen is British too).
     
  17. Kaleb

    Kaleb Deity

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    that reminds me of a story I heard once about a jewish circumcision expert. He made a slip one day and got the sack
     
  18. donsig

    donsig Low level intermediary

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    I wanted to compare the two suggested starts. They are the same to start: agriculture, build worker then work boat. Is settler next for both? :dunno:

    cav scout goes for mysticism (pre-req for Oracle?) before bronze working. Not sure if this is good or bad, as I know nothing about the value of slavery. I like the idea of getting Stonehenge. Those free monuments would almost put us on par with the the team that has the creative trait. Great Prophets are not so bad especially if we can get our own religion. Having stone would be a help - but would we really complete Stonehenge on turn 39? (I don't have BtS and can't try the test save.)
     
  19. classical_hero

    classical_hero In whom I trust

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    Actually the joke goes like this.

    "Why did the circumciser get fired? Because he got the sack."

    Anyway back to the starting position.
    I think it might be best for us to go for a commerce start with the position that have. The main problem with doing this is if we do not have any happiness resources by that will help us to grow, since we need to have enough production to get stuff out so we need to use the to build some warriors for that. I do not see the need for us to try and get any wonders since it is better for us to expand first before we think of wonders.
     
  20. cav scout

    cav scout The Continuum

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    Mysticism is the pre-req for Stonehenge, and yes it can be completed on turn 39.

    Doing myst before bronzeworking doesn't slow us down at all- after the worker finishes the corn i have him mine two grassy hills. BW then finishes and I have him do a chop right before the settler finishes. The overflow from the chop goes into stonehenge and then a couple chops to finish it on turn 39. I can lay out the detailed micromanagement if anyone wants.

    Note that a settler was completed before Stonehenge so we aren't sacrificing expansion. City two can churn out settlers or whatever. Stonehenge will also help our expansion big time with the free monuments in every city.

    Getting our Great Person points flowing early is huge. I know the Great Prophet isn't the most desireable GP, but being able to bulb two religions before anyone else can get to them would be very good. We then switch to producing Great Scientists (or Engineers and rush pyramids etc.)

    We have to play to our strengths to get ahead. The other teams will have early game gambits to maximize their advantages. If we just try to spam cities early we will shut down our economy and fall behind. This gambit catapults us ahead and would short circuit the other teams going for the oracle and mid religions.
     

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