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Team 1 Starting Position

Discussion in 'Team Kazakhstan' started by Sullla, Nov 26, 2008.

  1. Kaleb

    Kaleb Deity

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    Thanks for that grid donsig, handy.

    In a similar vein to damnrunner I think we should focus on growth and commerce (ie bulbs) for our capital.

    I'm fine with REX if it brings us a broader mix of resources. The availability of Silver, Gold or Gems early would be an incredible boon and compensate for the lack of an early religion, as would Wine to a lesser extent. Ivory would be great but I doubt we'll have any given our proximity to tundra, furs on the other hand are much more likely (as might whale although that won't help us early). I don't mind over-extending slightly to get these resources.

    Regarding early wonder, the only one I'm particularly keen on is the Pyramids because we'll be wanting to run a fair few specialist and the happiness bonus will also help us significantly.

    In terms of early teching - I would aim on getting Pottery ASAP as we want cottages on those river tiles to start making use of financial trait and planting the seeds for long-term commerce growth. It also means we can get granaries to help us get more use of whipping.

    Regarding building up a tech-monster capital, I agree with damnrunner that an early Academy will be worth setting aside some early scientists for. Other than that though I would prefer to avoid running specialists in our capital.

    I wouldn't bother with espionage and just run tech as high as we can always.

    We should focus our capital on commerce with a view to bureacracy and Oxford. We will likely to be the first to get Oxford given our half-price Universities. So I would plan our tech line against that.

    Such a tech path also gears up to be the first to Confucianism or Taoism.

    If we don't have any non-calendar happiness resources nearby and no stone for the Pyramids, we may need to re-assess trying to get an early religion as without it our cities won't be able to grow far and we'll get problems with 'we cannot forget your cruel oppression.
     
  2. damnrunner

    damnrunner Emperor

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    I am in agreement with Kaleb that we should look towards being the 1st to get Oxford. This is also on the way to liberalism which I think we should also aim for. Course that is a long ways down the line.

    Regarding specialists, Kaleb is right. We should not run any in our capitol and should focus on working those cottages. We should therefore look to build a Great Person Farm as either our 2nd or 3rd city. I do, however, suggest that we consider trying to build the Great Library in our capitol. It will give the biggest research boost there, and I have generally found it useful to have two cities producing great people - especially early on in the game when they are relatively cheap.

    That said, what sort of GP mix do we want. 1st should be a GS, but after that? GSs are generally the most useful but a GP or two would be useful to bulb Philo or CoL. Later in the game a few GEs are also great (iron works), but after Pyramids and Great Lib I don't see any early wonders that are especially useful and would warrant spending a GE on. GA's are great for war and we should keep a few on hand for when we capture enemy capitols, but it sounds like we are expecting a fairly peaceful game.
     
  3. Kaleb

    Kaleb Deity

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    heh. I wouldn't be so sure about that! We should be spaced out enough early on that there won't be any early rushes but I'm sure it will be warfare that will separate the men from the boys.

    I am in agreement with Kaleb that we should look towards being the 1st to get Oxford. This is also on the way to liberalism which I think we should also aim for. Course that is a long ways down the line.

    I think it's ok to run some scientists to get the GS. We may need to run some GP in the capital early on as we'll probably hit our happiness cap fairly soon with all that food resource.
     
  4. Bolkonski

    Bolkonski Prince Bolkonsky

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    Notwithstanding all the excellent ideas in this thread I am becoming increasingly concerned about the initial direction we are likely to take, so much so that I feel the necessity to bring some points to members attention.

    First we have no guarantee that this will be a peaceful game, in fact it may be quite the opposite. I suggest that everyone reads the following 10 Mistakes Offline Players Make When Playing Online paying especial attention to the section entitled Fail to build a Military.

    Now, we have two civilizations with early UUs; the Persians and the Mayans with Immortals and Holkans. The Persians start with Hunting and Agriculture, which is not so bad, but the Mayans will have Hunting and Bronze Working. This should set alarm bells ringing. If either one of these are neighbours - and there is a fifty percent chance that one will be - there is a significant possibility that we could be involved in an early war.

    I strongly suggest that until we find out who our neighbours are our first task should be to do what we need to defend ourselves. That means aiming for Hunting and Bronze Working, finding and developing a Copper mine and the necessary trade routes to use it, building Barracks and then producing Spearmen and Axemen.

    Once we know the lie of the land, then we can decide what we want to do next.
     
  5. donsig

    donsig Low level intermediary

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    Another great article Bolkonski. The plan suggested by jkpsmp1 (with its two warriors by turn 23) looks much better after reading that article.
     
  6. Indiansmoke

    Indiansmoke Deity

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    This goes without saying that we need to explore, find where strategic resources are, where our opponents are and have sentries....Through demographics we can follow opponent's power graphs and see if they are building military or not.

    But this is a big map for 5 people and chances are we will not be very close with anyone...

    For now we are discussing oppening strategy...don't think we will need to connect copper and get axes unless we are virtually next to someone.
     
  7. Indiansmoke

    Indiansmoke Deity

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    No need to panic and start chopping warriors at the beginning... We are on a plains hill with a plain forest hill in BFC..which means we can build a warrior in 3 turns (in size1) anytime if needed....

    We will need our forests to chop workers and settlers..

    Agriculture and improving the corn first is optimal..
     
  8. Kaleb

    Kaleb Deity

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    Re: bolkonski

    Sulla has designed this map and one of the few things we know about it is that civs will be spaced out far enough apart that early rushes will be highly unlikely.

    Any civ trying to do so will likely weaken themselves as much who they attack.

    Remember this isn't just any old mp game. It's likely to run many months so civs will be much less reckless and risk-taking.
     
  9. Bolkonski

    Bolkonski Prince Bolkonsky

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    I am not very reassured.

    We have no idea how far the nearest civ will be nor do we know what their intentions will be. We have no intelligence. We can watch the demographics but it could be too late to do anything by the time we were attacked.

    If I were playing either the Persians or the Mayans I would produce as many of my UUs as I could as fast as possible and attack my nearest rival as soon as could reasonably reassure myself of victory.

    I ran a couple of demo games playing Darius and Pacal. With the former I managed to destroy the nearest rival, who was quite a long way away, in 75 turns. With Pacal it only took 50 turns. Both times first I destroyed the relatively undefended second city and then conquered the capital.
     
  10. Jimmy369

    Jimmy369 Warlord

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    It is also easier to defend than to attack, especially early in the game. Early copper is important and having a couple of defenders early in the game is a must. The true way to punish the early warmongerers though, is to ensure that our research is up early. Then they are doomed for the rest of the game by falling too far behind in tech. Of the two, I would be more worried about Persian Immortals because they can move quick and get a good bonus. The Mayan unit seems to be a anti-rush defense, not an attack.
     
  11. damnrunner

    damnrunner Emperor

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    We will want a unit screen for barbarians which will also give us fair warning of any attack. Also by looking at the power graph it will be easy to tell if an opponent is build in up their military. Our proposed early tech plans give us bronze working and horses which give us decent defenses.

    My biggest concern is actually be an early attack by UU caravels that can carry military units. I would use that to burn 1 or 2 opponent cities which be a major setback.
     
  12. damnrunner

    damnrunner Emperor

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    A suggestion. Would anyone be interested to do some testing of the other teams' options. I don't have BTS so I can't really do this.

    Give them the same starting location as us (I don't expect they will be too different) and see what they can do in the 1st few dozen turns. This will give a good idea of who will likely win wonder races and what sort of early rush we could expect.
     
  13. coreybowman

    coreybowman Warlord

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    im in %100 agreement with bolkonski. the importance of building an strong miliary fast cant be overstated. its no fun to be leading in tech only to loose it all to under defended capitol. i think some teams may try a rush also. i think bronze working first is a must. we are going to need copper asap. then we know where our second city is going to be. after bronze working i think working one our economy is going to be a safer strategy. as a financial civ it does make sence to try to capitalize on that right away but i think with that trait we can afford to hold off and build a sound military first.
     
  14. Indiansmoke

    Indiansmoke Deity

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    There is no point to bronze first...we need agriculture first to grow and then bronze...of course we will defend and build army...this cannot be done from the start obviously!
     
  15. cav scout

    cav scout The Continuum

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    I have limited multiplayer experience but it seems these MTDGs are quite different from your standard multiplayer game. Early war seems unlikely (unless a team spots an opportunity just too good to pass up). The teams are going to be spread out and people are going to be cautious about an early pyrrhic victory that leaves them vulnerable to other teams. Until I read the transcripts for the last MTDG I would have never considered the early wonder gambit that I proposed.

    Could some of the demo game vets maybe share some of your experiences/thoughts?

    Getting down to the business at hand: I think the majority of people are for worker/agriculture as our first build and tech. Can we go with this or do we need a poll?
     
  16. damnrunner

    damnrunner Emperor

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    I agree - no matter what we do worker + agri will provide the best start as we explore with the warrior. For our second tech, I think bronze makes the most sense.
     
  17. Shogu

    Shogu Warlord

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    Yes food from corn then bronze
     
  18. Bolkonski

    Bolkonski Prince Bolkonsky

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    I suspect that this is the correct course of action.
     
  19. Sullla

    Sullla Patrician Roman Dictator

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    Hey, just want to remind all of you that the game is up, and you are currently on the clock for the first turn. I logged in with no problems, so you should be good to go! About 18 hours remaining - better get to work planning and playing that first turn. :)
     
  20. Bolkonski

    Bolkonski Prince Bolkonsky

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    Just logged in. Here is a screenshot of the starting position:
     

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