Team 1 Starting Position

[classical_hero]

Well if we place cities in the best spots we can use them to become commerce powerhouses and if we find an excellent food spot we can us those cities for GP farms so a lot will depend on what we find around us, so we need to be flexible. So if we find another high food spot we can thin about wonders in the capital, but if not then we are wasting opportunity to grow with our capital, with so much food around in that city.

 

[CommandoBob]

Just an FYI, I started this thread, Turns 0 to 10, as a place to record/log/post/discuss what we do on these turns.

 

[Provolution]

Then we agree to go for Great People.

 

[jkpsmp1]

I ran the test game multiple times looking for any other methods of getting more from what we have.

The best I came up with was -

Builds - worker turn 12 - work boat turn 17 - warrior turn 21 - warrior turn 22 (start warrior or barracks until city size 3, then switch to settler) - settler turn 31 - worker turn 37

Techs - Bronze turn 14 - Agriculture turn 21 - Wheel turn 28 - Pottery turn 34

working the corn - then add clams - then add river forest (until river mine is complete)

Worker - move SW - wait one turn - clear forest SW on hill - move N - clear forest on river - move N - build farm - move E - clear forest - move N - build mine

The build has the advantage of more warriors for defense or scouting. The warriors could be substituted by the barracks which would have 34 of the 50 points completed for it's build.

Thoughts?

 

[Provolution]

I think we should build barracks before multiple warriors. There is no need to foreclose that added bonus we need to get parity with Mayans and Persians. Also, we are considering building the Stonehenge.

 

[Indiansmoke]

I ran the test game multiple times looking for any other methods of getting more from what we have.

The best I came up with was -

Builds - worker turn 12 - work boat turn 17 - warrior turn 21 - warrior turn 22 (start warrior or barracks until city size 3, then switch to settler) - settler turn 31 - worker turn 37

Techs - Bronze turn 14 - Agriculture turn 21 - Wheel turn 28 - Pottery turn 34

working the corn - then add clams - then add river forest (until river mine is complete)

Worker - move SW - wait one turn - clear forest SW on hill - move N - clear forest on river - move N - build farm - move E - clear forest - move N - build mine

The build has the advantage of more warriors for defense or scouting. The warriors could be substituted by the barracks which would have 34 of the 50 points completed for it's build.

Thoughts?

That can be improved...my results are

worker turn 12 by working corn - start workboat by working corn, while improving corn with worker -
grow size 2 turn 18 working improved corn and plains hill, worker moves to unforested river hill to build mine -
turn 21 mine is ready, switch from plains hill to mined hill -
turn 22 workboat ready, bronze teched, worker moves to grassland river forest to chop, city builds warrior by working corn and mined hill -
turn 23 we grow size 3 working our 3 improved tiles -
turn 24 warrior finished we start settler -
turn 26 worker moves to other grassland river forest to chop -
turn 30 settler is out...4 turns to potery

 

[Indiansmoke]

Mysticism is the pre-req for Stonehenge, and yes it can be completed on turn 39.

Doing myst before bronzeworking doesn't slow us down at all- after the worker finishes the corn i have him mine two grassy hills. BW then finishes and I have him do a chop right before the settler finishes. The overflow from the chop goes into stonehenge and then a couple chops to finish it on turn 39. I can lay out the detailed micromanagement if anyone wants.

Note that a settler was completed before Stonehenge so we aren't sacrificing expansion. City two can churn out settlers or whatever. Stonehenge will also help our expansion big time with the free monuments in every city.

Getting our Great Person points flowing early is huge. I know the Great Prophet isn't the most desireable GP, but being able to bulb two religions before anyone else can get to them would be very good. We then switch to producing Great Scientists (or Engineers and rush pyramids etc.)

We have to play to our strengths to get ahead. The other teams will have early game gambits to maximize their advantages. If we just try to spam cities early we will shut down our economy and fall behind. This gambit catapults us ahead and would short circuit the other teams going for the oracle and mid religions.

What turn does the settler come out in this build order?

How do you escort him since you have not build any warriors?

 

[donsig]

cav scout can you give us a similar summary of your plan (showing what turn builds complete and techs are learned)?

It seems cav scouts settler would be ready before turn 30 since his plan does not call for building a warrior first. The downside is we'd either have to send the settler unescorted or arrange for our initial warrior to explore a little and then go on escort duty once the settler is ready. No matter which path we decide to take after we build our settler we must decide if we'll build a second warrior before the settler.

Can we explore enough surrounding terrain in 15 to 20 turns and have our starting warrior back in time to escort the settler? This may be a decision we cannot make until we see some more of the map.

 

[Provolution]

Actually the joke goes like this.

"Why did the circumciser get fired? Because he got the sack."

Anyway back to the starting position.
I think it might be best for us to go for a commerce start with the position that have. The main problem with doing this is if we do not have any happiness resources by that will help us to grow, since we need to have enough production to get stuff out so we need to use the to build some warriors for that. I do not see the need for us to try and get any wonders since it is better for us to expand first before we think of wonders.

Haha, I guess getting the sack is not "quite kosher" (Yeuh, that was an untasty food joke) I always have fun with Americans having institutionalized that as a word in their English.

 

[Kaleb]

Can we explore enough surrounding terrain in 15 to 20 turns and have our starting warrior back in time to escort the settler? This may be a decision we cannot make until we see some more of the map.

Agreed, it may turn out we have a really good spot for a city nice and close by with little foggy areas for nasty things to pop out of. In that case we should push to get the settler ASAP without the warrior escort. Although the last thing we want is a wolf popping out of nowhere and munching our settler!

 

[jkpsmp1]

That can be improved...my results are

worker turn 12 by working corn - start workboat by working corn, while improving corn with worker -
grow size 2 turn 18 working improved corn and plains hill, worker moves to unforested river hill to build mine -
turn 21 mine is ready, switch from plains hill to mined hill -
turn 22 workboat ready, bronze teched, worker moves to grassland river forest to chop, city builds warrior by working corn and mined hill -
turn 23 we grow size 3 working our 3 improved tiles -
turn 24 warrior finished we start settler -
turn 26 worker moves to other grassland river forest to chop -
turn 30 settler is out...4 turns to potery

How is this better? My suggested start had 2 warriors built + the start of a thrid - with the settler 1 turn later.

 

[cav scout]

Ok, here are the details of my plan:

Spoiler :

0- Settle, work corn; start Worker, Agriculture.
9- Finish Agriculture, start Mysticism.
12- Worker completed, start Workboat; move Worker to corn and farm.
15- Finish Mysticism, start Bronze Working.
16- Farm completed.
17- Move Worker sw to grassy hill.
18- City grows, assign citizen to forested plains hill W of city; Worker mines grassy hill.
21- Mine completed, change citizen from forested plains hill to mine.
22- Workboat completed; start Stonehenge; Workboat nets clams; move Worker NE, NE to grassy hill.
23- City grows, assign citizen to clams; change production to Settler; Worker mines grassy hill.
26- Mine completed.
27- Finish Bronzeworking (don't adopt slavery), start Meditation; move Worker S to forest.
28- Worker chops forest.
30- Chop completed.
31- Settler completed (Stonehenge resumes); move Worker E to forest.
32- Worker chops forest.
34- Finish Meditation, start Priesthood; chop completed.
35- City grows, assign citizen to work 2nd mine, shift citizen from corn to forested plains hill W of city; move Worker S to forest.
36- Worker chops forest.
38- Chop completed.
39- Finish Priesthood, start Wheel; Stonehenge completed!, start Oracle. Move Worker NW, SW to forest.
40- Worker chops forest.
42- Chop completed.
43- Move Worker SW to forested plains hill.
44- Worker chops forest.
45- Finish Wheel, start Pottery.
46- Chop completed.
47- Worker mines plains hill; change production to Warrior.
49- Warrior completed, fortify him, Oracle resumes; change production to Warrior again; shift citizen from forested plains hill to corn farm.
50- Warrior completed, Oracle resumes again; mine completed.
51- Finish Pottery, start Polytheism; move worker NE to grassland and cottage.
52- Oracle completed!

 

[Indiansmoke]

How is this better? My suggested start had 2 warriors built + the start of a thrid - with the settler 1 turn later.

because you have grown slower and used chops before improving tiles..hence less tech also.

 

[Indiansmoke]

Ok, here are the details of my plan:

Spoiler :

0- Settle, work corn; start Worker, Agriculture.
9- Finish Agriculture, start Mysticism.
12- Worker completed, start Workboat; move Worker to corn and farm.
15- Finish Mysticism, start Bronze Working.
16- Farm completed.
17- Move Worker sw to grassy hill.
18- City grows, assign citizen to forested plains hill W of city; Worker mines grassy hill.
21- Mine completed, change citizen from forested plains hill to mine.
22- Workboat completed; start Stonehenge; Workboat nets clams; move Worker NE, NE to grassy hill.
23- City grows, assign citizen to clams; change production to Settler; Worker mines grassy hill.
26- Mine completed.
27- Finish Bronzeworking (don't adopt slavery), start Meditation; move Worker S to forest.
28- Worker chops forest.
30- Chop completed.
31- Settler completed (Stonehenge resumes); move Worker E to forest.
32- Worker chops forest.
34- Finish Meditation, start Priesthood; chop completed.
35- City grows, assign citizen to work 2nd mine, shift citizen from corn to forested plains hill W of city; move Worker S to forest.
36- Worker chops forest.
38- Chop completed.
39- Finish Priesthood, start Wheel; Stonehenge completed!, start Oracle. Move Worker NW, SW to forest.
40- Worker chops forest.
42- Chop completed.
43- Move Worker SW to forested plains hill.
44- Worker chops forest.
45- Finish Wheel, start Pottery.
46- Chop completed.
47- Worker mines plains hill; change production to Warrior.
49- Warrior completed, fortify him, Oracle resumes; change production to Warrior again; shift citizen from forested plains hill to corn farm.
50- Warrior completed, Oracle resumes again; mine completed.
51- Finish Pottery, start Polytheism; move worker NE to grassland and cottage.
52- Oracle completed!

This is a bit risky...we will need at least 1 warrior before settler as our starting warrior will have to explore...and after settler we will need more workers warriors, to improve land and fogbust for barbs...

Also having 2 great prophet wonders early will pretty much guarandee that we get at least 2-3 prophets for our first great people and if we are unlucky evn 4-5...not ideal...we will need scientists not prophets...

The benefit of stonehedge is not that big...building a monument does not take long anyway and most importantly by going wheel pottery instead of mystisism priesthood, we will be teching much faster, thus will be able to get to monotheism or codes of law first...to get our religion.


Lets wait on this before deciding....you plan is teh same as mine until agriculture anyway, so we will have 9 turns to decide what we do....after having explored the map a bit as well..

 

[cav scout]

Yeah, I think worker and agriculture is the best start and we should be able to get a concensus for this. We can adjust fire as the game unfolds and go with whatever gambit looks best.

I know what you are saying about the settler unescorted. In my test game the warrior was able to explore for 25 turns and then swing back in to meet the settler. I didn't see any barbs until after turn 50.

As far as the great prophets, 4 is actually a good number. Two to bulb religions and two to create holy sites. I knocked a forge out after the oracle and specialized an engineer, 3rd GP I spawned was a great engineer. Could have done a library instead for a scientist. Don't think of the prophets as wasted GPs, they are a bonus because without the wonders we won't be generating any GP points at all until library/forge.

I know this is a hard sell since early wonders don't match up with most peoples playstyles. I just think we should use some sort of early game gambit. Those SANTCA guys are very likely to go for an oracle slingshot btw and i would love to spoil that!

 

[Indiansmoke]

@ Classical hero:

the screens you posted in the "how to play pitboss guide" are from a different map? Because everyone can see our staring position from the minimap!!!

 

[classical_hero]

Well it was just the test game, so it is no problem.

 

[Kaleb]

Lol, I hope the game starts soon or we'll be left to just continue chewing over various combos of how to run the first few turns!

 

[donsig]

We have three competing start proposals. Two (cav scout and Indiansmoke) are identical until turn 9 (start worker, research agriculture). The other (jkpsmp1) also starts a worker first but researches bronze working first.

Indiansmoke's and jkpsmp1's proposals seem similar through turn 34 as the same techs are gained (agriculture, bronze working, wheel and pottery). The latter plan makes the settler one turn slower but gets the work boat faster and pushes out two warriors thanks to earlier chopping. It seems our capital grows at the same rate even if we get agriculture later?

After turn 9 cav scout's plan diverges from the others in research (mysticism, bronze working, mediation and priesthood) and what is built (Stonehenge is begun and no warrior is produced to escort the settler).

I am leaning toward cav scout's plan but need to see some of the map before committing. I don't have BtS so I can't play with the test save, so can someone explain to me the difference between getting agriculture or bronze working first? I know the earlier we get bronze working the earlier we can chop to speed production. I thought getting agriculture first let us turn the corn tile into a farm generating faster growth for our capital.

I have gleaned what I can from the posted proposals:

Turn	cav scout	Indiansmoke	 jkpsmp1
9	agriculture	(agriculture?)	
...		
12	worker	        worker	         worker
13			
14			                 bronze working
15	mysticism		
16			
17			                 work boat
18	Size 2	        Size 2	
...			
21			                 warrior, agriculture
22	work boat	Work boat, BW    warrior
23	Size 3	        Size 3	
24		        warrior	
...		
27	bronze working		
28		        (wheel?)	 wheel
29			
30		        settler	
31	settler		                 settler
...			
34	meditation	pottery	         pottery
35	Size 4		
36			
37			                 worker
38			
39	Stonehenge,
        priesthood

 

[damnrunner]

We should skip Stonehenge. We will have enough room to expand as we are playing on a fairly large map. The only exception is if we find that we are right next to a creative nation.

Going for the Oracle could be useful but if so it should be our #1 priority. That is what other teams will be doing and if we build other stuff 1st we will not get it. I recommend against it.

I recommend a strategy that gets us cottages asap on all those nearby grassland river tiles. This makes best use of our finicial trait - and sets our capitol on the path towards being commercial powerhouse.

As to great people, we need to make use of our Philosophical trait from as easy on as possible. We should build/rush a library asap and run a great scientist (or 2) to put an academy in our capitol. The +50% research is essentially the same as running bureaucracy and is far cheaper. Getting this early will have a major impact on our research. The advantage will also not be as apparent on the powergraph/demographic page which will make our opponents underestimate our strength.

Early expansion. We should not over expand. Unless upkeep is significantly different in BTS, we should not build more than 5 or 6 cities or our economy will start hurting.

Pyramids. I suggest that we think about trying to get them as it will make our philosophical trait incredibly powerful. If someone could do some testing to see how early we could get them (with and without stone) that would be useful. We would probably want to build them after building two settlers. The 2nd city builds a library while the 3rd builds workers and military units. After the library is done the 2nd city builds another settler or military units. Any thoughts?

Espionage? I don't have BTS but do we want to divert any commerce to this from the beginning? Once we have our academy - and we will be the 1st civ to get one - we can afford to divert a bit of our commerce away from 100% research.