Team GONG Embassy

[donsig]

Well, it seems BABE has been doing the research and passing the techs onto GONG. Let's offer them their choice of motorized transport or flight. My guess is BABE is working on motorized transport and so they will take flight. (No pun intended.)

I'd change the paragraph about keeping our soldiers close to home. How about something along the lines of we are working to form a coalition against FREE?

 

[dl123654]

I would still much rather stay neutral.

I can see this turn around on us and make us FREE and SABER's next (joint) target.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

The big worry, in my head, would be what GONG does if FREE leaves and comes after us.

I think giving them either Motorized transport or Flight makes sense and I'm ok with that, but I'd like to tie it to them, somehow, coming to our aid if FREE attacks us, which would mean that if they made peace, they would make it with the agreement that such a peace would be considered null and void if war breaks out with between FREE and The Council, based on aggressiveness by FREE (where we would have to define aggressiveness - I think a stack of transports within landing range of Council lands is fine, myself)

If we DO become a joint target from FREE and SABER, then we gift GONG and BABE to modern times and see what happens. 3 on 2 would make it interesting.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

btw - I think we should consider bombing FREE transports - and perhaps we should see if we can bring SABER in on the battle, too.

 

[General_W]

New letter from GONG...

Dear Team Council,

We understand it is difficult to hastily reply to diplomatic contact without discussion, but we still hope to hear from you and our door is always open. We have again prevented any breakout on our island by Team Free and they now have only one town on our shores as you will observe when you get the turn. We have inflicted more than 8-times the amount necessary to provide Team Free with maximum level-4 war-weariness and they will receive even more next turn. We are prepared to stay at war with them for as long as we survive. We also will continue to support beneficial mutual trade.

Team Gong is determined to not be an aggressor nation and our long lasting partnership with the Babes contains no military clause whatsoever. Team Gong's advice to the Babes long ago was to not waste time on a pointless early war with little to no chance of success, but our advice was not heeded. While this is unfortunate we do not control their destiny, but do believe their Team seeks a change of direction now.

We have sent an accepted MPP to you this turn, that should allow you to obtain war-happiness if Free attacks us next turn. We understand the difficulty and discussion required to take such a step, but do feel it would be in your Team's best interests. Team Free has payed a heavy price for failing to over-whelm Gong quickly and the time to stop them is now. If they are allowed to rebuild by destroying Gong, they will learn much from their mistakes and with superior production of veteran units be in position to win the game in our opinion. Their attack was most fierce, but our resistance even more determined. We are willing to provide even more details and discussion of this matter and hope to hear from the much esteemed Council soon.

Best Regards,
PrinceMyshkin
Team Gong

I found this letter just as I was heading off to bed, but I went ahead and shot back this quick note:

Hey PrinceMyshkin,

Just wanted to let you know that I got both of your letters, and have posted them for discussion.
We ARE talking about how we might be involved with this... but our team can be rather slow.
I just wanted to send you a quick note to let you know we're not ignoring you!

Great work on repelling the invaders! Here's one Councilor that's rooting for you

Best,
General_W

So... an MPP with Gong?

What do we want to do with that?! Has GONG lost enough culture for us to feel safe signing something like that?

 

[Paul#42]

How does a MPP provide us with wh?
IIRC if a MPP is applied we would dow FREE and not vice versa.
In that case we'd provide some wh to FREE...

And we don't need any wh as long as we don't lose at least 3 of our luxury deals.

GONG had lost at least their capital and about half of their culture buildings. Most of them would have got double culture (1000 years old) soon. They are definetely no threat in this game to win by culture.

FREE had achieved their (and our) aim but payed quite a price for it by getting ww . If they don't get reinforcements soon, they won't get any persistant gain. We should check their supply routes and consider to sink some ships if they should reinforce. Submarines would be great to avoid the escort.

 

[tomasjj]

MPP?
Gut feeling says no.

Aid by tech, tied in with an alliance like AT says, sounds a better option.

Staying back might just paint us as sneaky, but then again, that is what we are, trying to fly under the radar.
I think we might see an attack on us within the next 8-10 turns if we start to meddle. Unfortunately there seems to be no way of aiding GONG with techs without getting called on it. Or could we offer cash to speed their research...sound a bit of a waste I know.

 

[Paul#42]

Unfortunately there seems to be no way of aiding GONG with techs without getting called on it. Or could we offer cash to speed their research...sound a bit of a waste I know.

Gifting money won't be detected so that sounds like an option to me.
While they cannot use it to rush units (in Feudalism) maybe they could use some money to upgrade outdated units? warrior, MDI -> guerilla was something I had in mind when I saw one 1/4 MDI and a couple of warriors out there...
At least they have Leo's - if it's not burned...

On the other hand it's almost realistic that BABE might get MotTrans soon.
Maybe it's not that obvious that they got it from us as long as we give it to BABE first

 

[donsig]

On the other hand it's almost realistic that BABE might get MotTrans soon.
Maybe it's not that obvious that they got it from us as long as we give it to BABE first

But I also think we should send flight to FREE. Who is going to get upset if we do this? FREE? Aren't we considering attacking them anyway? We've been cruising along assuming we're still best buddies with SABER but we haven't had much discussion with them lately about anything. The best way to prevent a SABER/FREE alliance is to knock one of them down a peg or two. Even if we think FREE is not a threat to win we remve a major threat if we knock down their research capability. Getting flight to GONG allows them to continue to escalate FREE's war weariness. Let's send them flight and not even be sneaky about it. Picture a Roundtable headline about the GONG FREEdom fighters.

As for an MPP, I'd say no simply because I do not know how war weariness / war happiness works. Paul is right, we would declare war on FREE if we accepted that MPP. Perhaps we should send a note back to GONG saying we decline(d) the MPP because we think it would give us war weariness.

I'm against sending gold. We need the gold for our own research and as a war chest if we are attacked. We'll have computers next turn and may want to upgrade some infantry.

 

[Paul#42]

The trouble with giving flight to GONG (you don't nean FREE, right? ) is that they will inevitably give it to BABE and BABE might use it against SABER. That might annoy SABER which is not good...

Tanks imo are much more important for both of them so I'd rather settle for gifting MotTrans for the moment - if we find a consense to take part in the conflict.

 

[tomasjj]

Donsig: We are not ready to fight FREE are we?
When do we think we will be so?

And I would be careful to piss off SABER just yet, wait until they have boots on the ground with BABE and when we have more forces...but that is not possible as GONG need help now...

 

[Paul#42]

We are not ready to attack FREE on their homeland but we could hurt them on the seas without getting blown away immediately...
FREE won't be able to attack us (back) without getting a bloody nose either, especially if we started by sinking some loaded transports...

But this would imply focussing on military thus delaying research. I'd rather keep the current balance for the rest of the game...

But trading MotTrans (and only Mot Trans) to GONG via BABE does not sound too risky after I thought it over again...
SABER won't be able to prove that we gave it to them although they might get the suspicion that we did...

 

[donsig]

If SABER puts boots on BABE's ground there may not be time enough after that to help them. (Think of last game.)

Could we not gift flight to GONG with the stipulation that they not pass it on to BABE? Isn't it also in SABER's interest to have GONG continue to ratchet up FREE's war weariness? GONG needs bombers to do that well. Of course if SABER is planning to ally with FREE then they won't want us to give flight to GONG.

 

[Paul#42]

If GONG gets flight and does not pass it to BABE, SABER and FREE will smell the rat even quicker...

Don't you think that tanks are better than bombers in their situation? Once they cleared their continent, fighters and bombers might kill invasion forces on sea, but on land they are too vulnerable imo...

 

[General_W]

I'm kinda liking the idea of declining the MPP - even if they're right about the War Happiness - we'd really rather stay under the radar, unless someone is getting an overwhelming victory.

However - I DO like the idea of giving GONG flight (with a strict promise to NOT give it to BABE).
And then, give MotorTransport to BABE - perhaps in exchange for some kind of non-aggression (& Non-tourism ) arrangement. [and if they give it to GONG... well, that's not our fault]

Saber won't be able to prove we gave MotorTransport to BABE... FREE could have easily and plausibly done that... and let's face it, we don't have an active treaty with them right now anyway, through no fault of ours.
It's also not provable that we were the ones who gave flight to GONG... but even if we did, so what? Only FREE would be upset by this, and they haven't had a treaty with us in a long time.

Maybe we can even get consensus on this approach?

EDIT: @Paul - I don't think it's suspicious if GONG gets flight and doesn't trade it. Heck, if asked, we can even admit we made that trade! Only FREE would be upset... and hey - it's payback time for Hoover & ToE. It's possible Saber would even be grateful that we went out of our way to prevent Flight from falling into the hands of the BABEs.

 

[Paul#42]

I'm kinda liking the idea of declining the MPP - even if they're right about the War Happiness - we'd really rather stay under the radar, unless someone is getting an overwhelming victory.

I agree. Anybody in favor of taking the MPP?

However - I DO like the idea of giving GONG flight (with a strict promise to NOT give it to BABE).
And then, give MotorTransport to BABE - perhaps in exchange for some kind of non-aggression (& Non-tourism ) arrangement. [and if they give it to GONG... well, that's not our fault]

The letter I'd also favor and I think tanks are more important. Although sinking some ships with bombers has its merits, too...

Saber won't be able to prove we gave MotorTransport to BABE... FREE could have easily and plausibly done that...

FREE would not risk to let GONG get tanks. They could be sure that BABE would not hesitate to backstab them after their treacherous assault on their allies.

and let's face it, we don't have an active treaty with them right now anyway, through no fault of ours.
It's also not provable that we were the ones who gave flight to GONG... but even if we did, so what? Only FREE would be upset by this, and they haven't had a treaty with us in a long time.

I don't think it's just about treaties but also about who's good and who's bad. Right now SABER's next target would rather be FREE, either on their home or on GONG's continent if they should ever occupy it.
But if they feel threatened by us, this might turn faster against us than we'd like it to.

But still, I'd like to give MotTrans to BABE, because the third possibility is that they researched it on their own. SABER cannot argue that.

Maybe we can even get consensus on this approach?

EDIT: @Paul - I don't think it's suspicious if GONG gets flight and doesn't trade it. Heck, if asked, we can even admit we made that trade! Only FREE would be upset... and hey - it's payback time for Hoover & ToE. It's possible Saber would even be grateful that we went out of our way to prevent Flight from falling into the hands of the BABEs.

So here's a list of possible actions.
I think any demands like gold or non-agressive statements can be beglected because they need the gold and they will be gracious (and harmless) anyway...
Gentlemen, Please announce if you're pro or con (or ambivalent):

1. Gift MotTrans to BABE (Pro: General, Paul)
2. Gift Flight to GONG without restriction (Con: Paul)
3. Gift Flight to GONG with restriction not to pass it to BABE (pro: General. neutral: Paul)

 

[donsig]

I agree. Anybody in favor of taking the MPP?

I am not in favor of the MPP.

Gentlemen, Please announce if you're pro or con (or ambivalent):

1. Gift MotTrans to BABE (Pro: General, Paul) I am pro.
2. Gift Flight to GONG without restriction (Con: Paul) I am ambivalent.
3. Gift Flight to GONG with restriction not to pass it to BABE (pro: General. neutral: Paul) I am pro.

EDIT: So, If we reach consensus on either of the first two, will we sent it with accept? If we have consensus on the last we don't have time to talk to GONG, so would we sent it without accept and then ask them about our restrictions?

 

[tomasjj]

No MPP.

1. Aye.
2. No idea.
3. No idea.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

On techs:

I am in favor of gifting GONG and BABE with Motorized Transport and Flight, and I'm ok with doing that by giving them both to GONG, in the guise of defending them from FREE. Why? Because they are not real threats to win the game via space or culture and they are vulnerable to attack by FREE/SABER, who ARE threats to win the game by space. If either of those two get too strong, we are hosed.

Getting those two on our side would help us.

On MPP

I think we should consider this and not dismiss it out of hand. If we have an MPP with GONG, then if FREE stops their attack on GONG and attacks us, GONG re-attacks and FREE gets their war weariness back. Yes, we would be at war with FREE if they press, but I suspect that FREE may be done with their attack, anyway.

Basically, they did what we were planning to do at some point

I think I'd like to either accept it or go back to GONG and say "we are debating the MPP"

I'd also like GONG to research advanced flight for us (radar towers) in exchange for getting gifted (we would have to send them AT and Electronics as well, of course)

 

[Niklas]

I'm against the MPP. I'm also against gifting or selling anything to BABE, our relations with SABER are more important. I could see us gift or sell (with or without provisions) techs to GONG though.