donsig
Low level intermediary
Had to play the save. Sent to SABER with the following:
Note to SABER: Diplomatic pouch to follow shortly.
Note to SABER: Diplomatic pouch to follow shortly.
Team Saber Embassy
- Thread starter General_W
- Start date
Let's not forget that each team has at least 24 hours to play the save, and can request, without consequence, more time.
Just because the save is in our mailbox doens't mean we have to hurry diplomacy: on the contrary! Holding up the save (up to our alloted 24 hours) gives us a chance to accomplish MORE diplomacy
Playing the save as fast as it arrives is a tool that is well suited to many situations, but not all. I have full confidence that Donsig used his best judgement here, but I just wanted to go on the record about this
Just because the save is in our mailbox doens't mean we have to hurry diplomacy: on the contrary! Holding up the save (up to our alloted 24 hours) gives us a chance to accomplish MORE diplomacy
Playing the save as fast as it arrives is a tool that is well suited to many situations, but not all. I have full confidence that Donsig used his best judgement here, but I just wanted to go on the record about this
General_W
Councilor & Merlot Noble
still no more people weighing in 
Well, I'm going to give this till the morning then.
Goodnight Council!
(no matter what, will send something when I get up 7-8 hours from now)
Well, I'm going to give this till the morning then.
Goodnight Council!
(no matter what, will send something when I get up 7-8 hours from now)
zyxy
Warmongering Fool
500 seems reasonable. And I'm not yet convinced that BABE is also trading with SABER...
I think it more likely they researched literature, in fact I think their collosus build was a fall back from building the great library (look at the timing, gong builds library, next turn saber build collosus, next turn they get literature).
It is difficult to decide what is a good price for those techs but agree we need to get something out before Saber play the save and put more beakers into their next tech.
One way of looking at it is what price would make it quicker (not neccersarily cheaper) for saber to gain those techs by buying them from us, this would be the high price, i.e. they can save the gold for each tech in 3 turns rather than research them in 4 turns, say around 800 gold. On the face of it this looks like we are offering them a good deal however that would ignore two things. Firstly there is the cost to Saber of putting a large amount of gold in our treasure, i.e. they may prefer to spend a few extra turns researching themselves rather than make us rich. Secondly although some of the techs would take 4 turns to research, they probably could do so whilst still running a healthy surplus in their treasury (hbr & myst), this gold could then be used for deficit research in the middle ages saving them some turns later.
I guess I just convinced myself that 500 gold seems fine.
I think someone mentioned that it may be best not to offer Saber anything however as well as the gold we also gain political points with Saber, I would rather have saber on our side than on babe/gong's.
It is difficult to decide what is a good price for those techs but agree we need to get something out before Saber play the save and put more beakers into their next tech.
One way of looking at it is what price would make it quicker (not neccersarily cheaper) for saber to gain those techs by buying them from us, this would be the high price, i.e. they can save the gold for each tech in 3 turns rather than research them in 4 turns, say around 800 gold. On the face of it this looks like we are offering them a good deal however that would ignore two things. Firstly there is the cost to Saber of putting a large amount of gold in our treasure, i.e. they may prefer to spend a few extra turns researching themselves rather than make us rich. Secondly although some of the techs would take 4 turns to research, they probably could do so whilst still running a healthy surplus in their treasury (hbr & myst), this gold could then be used for deficit research in the middle ages saving them some turns later.
I guess I just convinced myself that 500 gold seems fine.
I think someone mentioned that it may be best not to offer Saber anything however as well as the gold we also gain political points with Saber, I would rather have saber on our side than on babe/gong's.
donsig
Low level intermediary
I was hesitant to ask for an extension and so I went ahead an played the save last night. Our 24 hours would have been up at 2 am my time and I can't get online at home so I had to get it done before leaving work (and had some RL issues to deal with last night, too). I was banking on the General sending the letter to SABER so they'd see our offer before playing. Ooops!
General_W
Councilor & Merlot Noble
Ok – Thanks for weighing in! Those votes leave 500 gold slightly ahead.
500 Gold: 4 (General_W, Automated Teller, zyxy, Aigburth )
600 Gold: 2 (Donsig, tomasjj)
Since we can't delay any longer, I'm now sending this off!
SENT: to Saber gmail & to Dutchfire gmail
Title: “Tech Sale”
500 Gold: 4 (General_W, Automated Teller, zyxy, Aigburth )
600 Gold: 2 (Donsig, tomasjj)
Since we can't delay any longer, I'm now sending this off!
SENT: to Saber gmail & to Dutchfire gmail
Title: “Tech Sale”
Spoiler :
I guess my waffling wasn't clear enough - I should have been counted in the 500g category 
General_W
Councilor & Merlot Noble
Had a fascinating chat with Dutchfire and then later Chamnix joined us:
Here's a summary:
I had to just use my best judgment on a lot of this, due to time-frame and opportunity. Hopefully everyone is ok with everything I said.
Now we just need to decide what to do on Engineering with Saber.
Let the debates rage!
Spoiler :
Here's a summary:
- They want to buy all 4 techs from us, and have the money stockpiled to buy 3 next turn!!
- I probed them for how close they were to BABE and wasn't overly happy with the lukewarm response, so I bounced the 100 gold discount for a promise not to trade Engineering to BABE deal… and they were warm to that proposal! A good sign! Now we have to decide if we want to offer that for real. I'd say yes.
- Chamnix pumped me for info, and I gave them some nuggets – designed to keep them friendly without revealing too much of great consequence.
I had to just use my best judgment on a lot of this, due to time-frame and opportunity. Hopefully everyone is ok with everything I said.
Now we just need to decide what to do on Engineering with Saber.
Let the debates rage!
donsig
Low level intermediary
I think it was a great discussion but you should tell them we jumped all over you for giving away 100g (especially when some of us wanted 600g to begin with). How about 50g off - they aren't gonna trade to BABE anyway.
The real trouble here is what will SABER do when they reach the middle ages? If they research engineering then chances increase that GONG/BABE get it through the GLib.
EDIT: Does SABER have contact with GONG?
The real trouble here is what will SABER do when they reach the middle ages? If they research engineering then chances increase that GONG/BABE get it through the GLib.
EDIT: Does SABER have contact with GONG?
General_W
Councilor & Merlot Noble
Good call Donsig! I like that! 
I agree it doesn't sound like they're very interested in trading in the first place – so we ought to be able to reduce the discount somewhat. I'll happily take the fall for that.
@Donsig – last time I asked, Saber did NOT know Gong. However, to be safe, I included them in the prohibition on trading Engineering.
I agree it doesn't sound like they're very interested in trading in the first place – so we ought to be able to reduce the discount somewhat. I'll happily take the fall for that.
Dear Saber friends,
Just a quick note to let you know that I've taken a bit of shellacking for offering a 100 gold discount for what many councilors believe is in your own best interest anyway (not trading with BABE). However, we'd still like to offer a 50 gold discount in exchange for your good faith promise to not trade Engineering to the BABE/GONG alliance.
Assuming that's ok(?) – we stand ready to transfer everything you need to know to advance to the Middle Ages for 450 gold.
When you arrive with your bonus tech, you'll be pleased to find that you're really not very far behind at all.
All the best,
General_W, speaking with the voice of The Council
@Donsig – last time I asked, Saber did NOT know Gong. However, to be safe, I included them in the prohibition on trading Engineering.
Great Chat, General!
It was nice to hear from Chamnix again... maybe we'll get lucky and he'll want to emigrate to The Council once Babe trouces them
I"m fine with the 50g discount for a no-trade clause on Engineering.
It was nice to hear from Chamnix again... maybe we'll get lucky and he'll want to emigrate to The Council once Babe trouces them
I"m fine with the 50g discount for a no-trade clause on Engineering.
General_W
Councilor & Merlot Noble
things have changed again! This just in...
For the sake of time, I have sent this response:
@Donsig – on our turn, please offer 20 gold and HBR to Saber with accept. Also – better start moving any spare forces to our coast near Saber… if BABE can’t land, they may opt to head for us!
@ all – I assume there’s no question about helping Saber. Our best case scenario here is that BABE lands, but is relatively quickly overwhelmed by Saber. If Saber is conquered by BABE, it will be very very very hard for any other team to win this game. BABE will become nearly unstoppable.
In the light of the latest developments, ignore my last post...
Let's just hope that they are going for SABER and not us...
We need to keep a firm eye on those galleys.
Should we take some counter measures and build some military to counter the eventual invasion, or do we feel absolutely confident that SABER will be the target?
Let's just hope that they are going for SABER and not us...
We need to keep a firm eye on those galleys.
Should we take some counter measures and build some military to counter the eventual invasion, or do we feel absolutely confident that SABER will be the target?
Interesting development.
Of course we should help SABER, as per the DAB treaty. However, I would not go beyond that (such as advancing them to the MA without immediate payment) until we know for sure that BABE is attacking them. It does seem highly likely, but we only need to delay a turn to know for sure. 375 gp is fine by me.
And yes, I think a few military builds is in order, just in case.
Of course we should help SABER, as per the DAB treaty. However, I would not go beyond that (such as advancing them to the MA without immediate payment) until we know for sure that BABE is attacking them. It does seem highly likely, but we only need to delay a turn to know for sure. 375 gp is fine by me.
And yes, I think a few military builds is in order, just in case.
zyxy
Warmongering Fool
Let's hope those ships are not heading for us...
Well, we have guaranteed peace until turn 129. If BABE attacks before that, I would be very surprised.
Before that occurred, I was thinking of the GLib problem. We can of course quite easily neutralize the threat from GONG. But if they want to do the GLib tech elevator trick with BABE, then it gets difficult. But I got a somewhat wild idea how to deal with this.
First, let's try to understand what they would do. Their problem is to decide when to enter the GLib tech elevator. They will not be able to see which techs the other teams have (unless either BABE or GONG researches them too, which defeats the point of the tech elevator). The only thing they can see is age changes, wonder builds and units. (Or with an embassy, they can spy on infra). Even guessing research speed doesn't help too much, because they don't know when we trade.
So the best moment to execute the tech elevator is after at least two teams went to a new age. Now, they cannot wait for the modern age, because they would certainly be attacked and eliminated before that happens. So I think that if they want to execute the tech elevator, then they'll do it shortly after two teams enter the IA. Either that, or they'll gamble on some earlier moment.
To neutralize this, I think our only option is to destroy the GLib, preferably with a combined effort by all three scientific teams, as follows:
Well, we have guaranteed peace until turn 129. If BABE attacks before that, I would be very surprised.
Before that occurred, I was thinking of the GLib problem. We can of course quite easily neutralize the threat from GONG. But if they want to do the GLib tech elevator trick with BABE, then it gets difficult. But I got a somewhat wild idea how to deal with this.
First, let's try to understand what they would do. Their problem is to decide when to enter the GLib tech elevator. They will not be able to see which techs the other teams have (unless either BABE or GONG researches them too, which defeats the point of the tech elevator). The only thing they can see is age changes, wonder builds and units. (Or with an embassy, they can spy on infra). Even guessing research speed doesn't help too much, because they don't know when we trade.
So the best moment to execute the tech elevator is after at least two teams went to a new age. Now, they cannot wait for the modern age, because they would certainly be attacked and eliminated before that happens. So I think that if they want to execute the tech elevator, then they'll do it shortly after two teams enter the IA. Either that, or they'll gamble on some earlier moment.
To neutralize this, I think our only option is to destroy the GLib, preferably with a combined effort by all three scientific teams, as follows:
- Team 1 (most likely
GONGFREE) researches up to Astro, and possibly beyond. - Team 2 (most likely us) researches at top speed to MilTrad. This team will be the attacker, and will train a lot of horse, pike and galleys.
- Team 3 (most likely SABER) hoards cash and supports team 2 with it.
Upon reaching MilTrad, Team 2 receives techs up to Astro from Team 1, uses the cash from Team 3 for upgrading horse -> cav, pike -> musket, galley -> caravel, and attacks GONG. The goal of the attack is to raze the GLib town. Cavs vs pikes and perhaps knights is not overwhelming, but it's not bad odds either. We could even add our UU to the mix, althoug it is expensive. - If we time it right, then GONG gets techs up to Edu (and Eng) from the GLib, and then is attacked only a few turns later. Once GONG is under invasion, they may not gift the GLib town away! (That would deny conquest, which is against the rules, IIRC.)
- The biggest problem is that we cannot invade if GONG simply blocks their entire coastline. A backup is to attack BABE instead, but the same applies there of course.
- Of course SABER with their supercavs would be the best choice as attacker, but we have to make sure that the techs to MilTrad are known by only one civ. And SABER is not in the best position to research.
- It would be helpful if Team 2 built Leo's to lower upgrade cost.
- It would be helpful if one team explores the coastline of GONG.
- An attack on one of GONG/BABE probably incurs a DoW from the other. We can try to have a peace treaty with BABE in place when attacking GONG, to prevent this. Of course the other two scientific civs can be gifted up to MilTrad and Astro and join the attack as soon as it has started.
- There is the obvious problem of splitting cost and benefit between the three teams. Another obvious problem is that SABER cannot contribute much if they are under attack.
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