Tech Trading w/ AI (Prince)

[Xerhid]

I am unable to keep up with AI in Tech. Yes, I think I have enough cottages. I think I am primarily losing my edge because I don't know how to trade effectively.

I am reluctant to trade for the following reasons:
(1) I don't want my rivals to have access to building/units that will further their goals
(2) I am afraid that once I trade away my tech, the AI will whore it to all the other AIs, which basically leads to concern (1)
(3) I am afraid that once I make my tech trade, the AI will more effectively trade it with other AIs and garner a greater tech advantage
(4) It seems that the AIs almost always arrange tech exchanges that benefit themselves' rarely do I get an even exchange

Could someone more experienced than me share your advice on tech trading? I just can't seem to do it properly.

 

[BenniusCaesar]

I think that as well! They always trade with each other before me! The only way to get them to trade techs with me first seems to be if I'm the only one who has it.

 

[beestar]

To answer your question #2, sell it to as many AI as possible at the same time. That way you can be the one to reap the benefits. You may have to give it away at what you think of as a discount ... Forget about getting an even exchange, a poor exchange is still better than getting nothing for it, which is what will happen if you wait too long and let the AIs trade it with each other.

As for your rivals having access to useful tools: you may want to specifically research not so useful techs for the sole purpose of trading. I find Music and Drama to be good ones to give away since they don't seem to help the AI very much. Other good ones are religious techs like Pacifism, which lose much of their real value after the associated religion has been founded. Same goes for the techs that give away bonuses like free Great People (Physics, Liberalism, etc.). Shop 'em around and you may be able to get two or three different techs for your "useless" tech.

I rarely want to give away military techs, and the AIs rarely seem to give them up until they're obsolete, so those aren't really good for trading.

I'm not a Civ superstar but this works for me on Prince level.

 

[Xerhid]

I guess another question I have is this:

Is tech trading with AI an important strategy? I mean, MORE OFTEN THAN NOT, will reasonably planned tech trading with AI further your goals in the game, or is the jury still out?

In other words, say I play a game identically in every way, except in one I tech trade and in one I don't tech trade. Obviously it is much more complex than that, but what are the opinions (experiences) out there?

 

[tempuraki]

trading techs definitely helps, especially when you can trade one tech to several AIs for different techs. So you lose one tech to everyone, but you get 3 or 4 different techs back.

Sometimes I even trade non-deadend techs to AIs so they can do the research for me. For example I would sometimes trade Scientific Method to others so that someone will research Biology for me, while I push for Electricity.

 

[kamigawan]

Agree with beestar. If you decide to give up a tech no one else has, trade it to everyone and pick up a whole bunch of techs in return. Even if it means trading for below its actual value, or selling it for cash...you will still benefit because your diplomatic relationship to that civ will improve. Just be careful if you are going for diplomatic victory, about who you trade with.

As for fairness of deals: most deals offered by the AI are not in your interest, and moreover, they really really need that particular tech for their current goal. Instead, pick techs you think are less strategically important for that time and trade at a time when you want.

Remember that offering up a tech and asking "what will you give me for this" usually still gives better offers than asking "what do you want for" or "what would make this deal work". This is fixed somewhat in 1.52 compared to prepatch, but it is still the best option.

 

[Wodan]

Tech trading is critical, especially on higher levels.

Let's see... I can research all the techs in the game myself, or I can research 1/3 of them and get the rest for free.

Which is better?

Wodan

 

[beestar]

Remember that offering up a tech and asking "what will you give me for this" usually still gives better offers than asking "what do you want for" or "what would make this deal work". This is fixed somewhat in 1.52 compared to prepatch, but it is still the best option.

By the way, has anyone ever gotten a better deal than "what will you give me for this"? It seems that you can't do any better than that.

One one hand it takes some of the fun of negotiating out of the game, but I prefer it because there's no longer any trial-and-error trying to figure out the maximum the AI will give up.

 

[bonscott]

By the way, has anyone ever gotten a better deal than "what will you give me for this"? It seems that you can't do any better than that.

One one hand it takes some of the fun of negotiating out of the game, but I prefer it because there's no longer any trial-and-error trying to figure out the maximum the AI will give up.

Sometimes I'll get a better deal *in my eyes*. For example, I might ask what will you give me and they offer up a tech and say 300 gold. I'll take the 300 gold off their side and add in a 2nd lower level tech, say horseback riding (something I rarely research but always trade for). More often then not if you have good relations they'll say no prob.

To the original poster, tech trading is *critical*. You just can't win on higher levels without it. My keys to tech trading are forging good relations early on by trying to get open borders with everyone and such. Make good friends and perhaps the same religion as at least one of the other tech leaders and you'll get better chances of them willing to trade things to you.

If you don't have good relations then you won't do well in tech trading.

My favorite techs to trade away are:
Alphabet - sometimes I hold onto it for a short while but the AI will pay through the nose for it. After getting my first few critical techs I beeline for it and then trade it away for all the ones I skipped to get there.

Astronomy - AI likes to research this tech themselves but if you can beat at least a couple to it they will pay, even on Pangea maps where it might not do them any good.

Drama, Music - Just as posted above I usually get these first as the AI rarely goes that way. Get a free great artist plus you can trade them away for things such as guilds and other critical techs you skipped.

Liberalism - I'll get it first about half the time. Sometimes I forget to go down that part of the tech tree or I'll skip it if at war. Again, AI loves this tech and you already got the free tech for it. Even if someone beat you to it, once you get it see what other AI's don't have it yet, they'll pay.

Communism, Fasism - Again, AI likes the techs. But I'll wait until I've gotten a bit of a lead on building any wonders opened up if I really want them.

Flight - I'll only trade this away once I've gotten far enough to build bombers myself but there are usually a few AI that haven't researched it yet.

One thing that I rarely see is the AI's all sharing their techs as I see some people complain about like in Civ 3. If I trade a tech to just 1 civ for example, I don't find all the others getting it right away. The AI doesn't "team up" against the human player in Civ 4, at least what I've seen up to Prince level. But then I usually have religiously diverse games with at least 2-3 "blocks" of religions and trading rarely will cross those lines.

 

[Xerhid]

Sometimes I'll get a better deal *in my eyes*. For example, I might ask what will you give me and they offer up a tech and say 300 gold. I'll take the 300 gold off their side and add in a 2nd lower level tech, say horseback riding (something I rarely research but always trade for). More often then not if you have good relations they'll say no prob.

To the original poster, tech trading is *critical*. You just can't win on higher levels without it. My keys to tech trading are forging good relations early on by trying to get open borders with everyone and such. Make good friends and perhaps the same religion as at least one of the other tech leaders and you'll get better chances of them willing to trade things to you.

If you don't have good relations then you won't do well in tech trading.

My favorite techs to trade away are:
Alphabet - sometimes I hold onto it for a short while but the AI will pay through the nose for it. After getting my first few critical techs I beeline for it and then trade it away for all the ones I skipped to get there.

Astronomy - AI likes to research this tech themselves but if you can beat at least a couple to it they will pay, even on Pangea maps where it might not do them any good.

Drama, Music - Just as posted above I usually get these first as the AI rarely goes that way. Get a free great artist plus you can trade them away for things such as guilds and other critical techs you skipped.

Liberalism - I'll get it first about half the time. Sometimes I forget to go down that part of the tech tree or I'll skip it if at war. Again, AI loves this tech and you already got the free tech for it. Even if someone beat you to it, once you get it see what other AI's don't have it yet, they'll pay.

Communism, Fasism - Again, AI likes the techs. But I'll wait until I've gotten a bit of a lead on building any wonders opened up if I really want them.

Flight - I'll only trade this away once I've gotten far enough to build bombers myself but there are usually a few AI that haven't researched it yet.

One thing that I rarely see is the AI's all sharing their techs as I see some people complain about like in Civ 3. If I trade a tech to just 1 civ for example, I don't find all the others getting it right away. The AI doesn't "team up" against the human player in Civ 4, at least what I've seen up to Prince level. But then I usually have religiously diverse games with at least 2-3 "blocks" of religions and trading rarely will cross those lines.

Really excellent and thorough post. This answers my question perfectly. Thanks!

 

[ZippyRiver]

By the way, has anyone ever gotten a better deal than "what will you give me for this"? It seems that you can't do any better than that..

I did last game. It was on noble level though. I was trading with that shyster Bismark. The deal was similar but benefitted me a lot more.

 

[MyOtherName]

By the way, has anyone ever gotten a better deal than "what will you give me for this"? It seems that you can't do any better than that.

Yes. I have managed to add in gold, maps, or even another tech entirely.

Conversely, when I've asked "What do you want for this?", I've removed techs that it asked for, and still got it.

 

[bobtheflob]

Is tech trading necessary to beat the higher levels? I usually get annoyed because a) the ai seems to get the better end of the deal most of the time, and b) I constantly get demands to give away techs for free. I usually just play games with the no tech trading option and I can do fine through the prince level. Is it possible to beat higher levels without tech trading?

 

[cymru_man]

Is tech trading necessary to beat the higher levels? I usually get annoyed because a) the ai seems to get the better end of the deal most of the time, and b) I constantly get demands to give away techs for free. I usually just play games with the no tech trading option and I can do fine through the prince level. Is it possible to beat higher levels without tech trading?

If you actually turn tech trading off when you make the game, yes it is very possible.

If you leave the option on but avoid doing all trading...you don't have a hope

 

[VirtualM]

Alphabet - sometimes I hold onto it for a short while but the AI will pay through the nose for it. After getting my first few critical techs I beeline for it and then trade it away for all the ones I skipped to get there.

I prefer not to trade away the alphabet as long as I'm the only one having it. By doing so, I control the tech trading; everything must go through me. It allows to trade many of the same techs for back and forth, while keeping the good techs and the additional money for myself.
As a side effect, it ensures that all AI civs have more or less the same strength, which is perfect when they start attacking each other.

When another civ get the Alphabet, I try to trade it away as fast as I can.

 

[walkerjks]

Is tech trading necessary to beat the higher levels? I usually get annoyed because a) the ai seems to get the better end of the deal most of the time, and b) I constantly get demands to give away techs for free. I usually just play games with the no tech trading option and I can do fine through the prince level. Is it possible to beat higher levels without tech trading?

a) The AI will get a better deal (except with Mansa - he will sometimes make an equal trade). But if you trade the same tech to 3 different AIs for a slight loss, your net gain is far, far higher than the net gain of each of your three opponents.

b) If you trade new techs as soon as you get them, you won't get as many demands for techs. You get far more demands for free techs when you don't trade.

You certainly can win without tech trading at higher difficulty levels, but in my experience, it generally benefits the human player more than the AI.

 

[Stalker0]

Also look to the weaker civs for tech trading. CIV 4 makes it where a smaller nation dedicated can science can hold its own, and may go down a different tech tree then other civs. Feel free to trade at a loss with them, as they are not going to be a huge threat to you later in the game.

 

[Canadian Bacon]

One thing that is fun/evil to do is to trade techs that obsolete wonders to the AI that holds it. For instance, if an AI has built the Colossus, then trade them Astronomy (assuming you can get something out of it). That way you benefit, your opponent suffers, and you gain better relations.

 

[Kenji]

maybe give u an example...there are 8 civs, we got Math that no 1 has yet, but we lacking 10 techs that most of AI has...

1) go to Civ1 trade Math for Tech 1,2 (open tech to 7,8) yet they dont have 9,10
2) go to Civ2 trade Math for Tech 3,4 (open tech to 9,10)
3) go to Civ3 trade Math for Tech 5
etc etc
n+1) go back to civ1 trade Tech 9,10 for $$$
go on

so u trade Math for 10 techs and some $$$ that they will eventually get them cheap w/ other AIs

 

[TEP]

I suppose, if you play against only 3-4 AIs, tech trading will be less of an issue and the benefits will be smaller.
Also, I never seem to explore enough to have met more than a few AI civs until I'm past most of the tech's that people recommend as trade items.