Tech Tree Discussion

[Hydromancerx]

@ls612 & Vokarya

Can one of you tweak tech please?

Sikhism
Cost: 2406
Location: X45 Y9
Req Tech: Critical Thought AND Hinduism AND Islam

This puts it in a more historical time period.

 

[Koshling]

@ls612 & Vokarya

Can one of you tweak tech please?

Sikhism
Cost: 2406
Location: X45 Y9
Req Tech: Critical Thought AND Hinduism AND Islam

This puts it in a more historical time period.

Are you sure you want to make it dependent on the actual religion techs rather than the immediately prior techs to those? Doing so reverses the position of making the actual religion techs dead ends to encourage religion founding to be spread over more players. If you force a player to tech BOTH (entirely useless apart from this prereq need) dead end techs for islam and hinduism it will strongly encourage the founder of those religions to also get Sikhism, which was what we were trying to get away from by making religion techs dead ends in the first place

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Are you sure you want to make it dependent on the actual religion techs rather than the immediately prior techs to those? Doing so reverses the position of making the actual religion techs dead ends to encourage religion founding to be spread over more players. If you force a player to tech BOTH (entirely useless apart from this prereq need) dead end techs for islam and hinduism it will strongly encourage the founder of those religions to also get Sikhism, which was what we were trying to get away from by making religion techs dead ends in the first place

Christianity already requires Judaism so they are not all dead end techs anyway.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Also Hinduism and Islam come so much earlier than Sikhism. By the time you get to the new spot for Sikhism and have not researched Hinduism or Islam (or both) they be very cheap to research. Not enough to give you an advantage over the other person who researched the tech when it was more expensive.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Religion founding may be broken again. Something changed during the v25 process. The AI will attempt an early Religion, Druid or Shaman but after that plain ignores everything else. Current game with only 5 AI I expected an even spread. But that's not the case. I've founded 8 religions and can found 10 more. While the AI will occasionally ask to trade for a religion I've already founded.

I've purposefully left those other religions alone like Ngaii, Yoruba, Hindu, Zoastra, etc. ( I founded Tengrii and Judaism early)to see if the 4 remaining AI will research and found one of them I left open. No go.

So whatever changed in the "code" and Techtree during v25 has broken the "spread" that was occurring during v 24.

JosEPh

 

[Koshling]

Religion founding may be broken again. Something changed during the v25 process. The AI will attempt an early Religion, Druid or Shaman but after that plain ignores everything else. Current game with only 5 AI I expected an even spread. But that's not the case. I've founded 8 religions and can found 10 more. While the AI will occasionally ask to trade for a religion I've already founded.

I've purposefully left those other religions alone like Ngaii, Yoruba, Hindu, Zoastra, etc. ( I founded Tengrii and Judaism early)to see if the 4 remaining AI will research and found one of them I left open. No go.

So whatever changed in the "code" and Techtree during v25 has broken the "spread" that was occurring during v 24.

JosEPh

The desire to trade for them has been fixed on the more recent SVNs (last few days).

The lack of founding is probably an indication that the value of religions in the tech decision needs up-weighting a bit more - I'll tweak it. I could confirm this if you had BBAI logs...? (would need logs from a play of maybe half a dozen turns so that it is likely to capture some AI tech decisions, which occur whenever an AI gets a new tech and has to re-choose)

 

[JosEPh_II]

@Koshling,

Here's your BBAI logs.

Anything else?

JosEPh

 

[Koshling]

@Koshling,

Here's your BBAI logs.

Anything else?

JosEPh

Would make searching them a lot easier if I knew which religious techs were available (not founded) and close (i.e. - the ones the AIs are likely to be considering in their tech tree evaluations). Any ideas which are the best candidates here?

 

[JosEPh_II]

These are the founded: Druid, Shaman, Tengrii, Judaism, Hellenism, Christianity, Shinto, Buddhism, Mesopotamism, Asatru. The AI founded the 1st 2. I've founded the following 8. (I could've by now founded 10 more).

The rest are all available especially the early ones like Ngaii, Naghulism, Yoruba, Hindu, Confucianism, Sikh, Kemetism, Andeanism, etc.

The Brazilians and Huns founded the 1st 2. The Navajo have adopted Christianity from me, The Ethiopians has yet to declare a religion and It's 210AD on a Normal speed game that is in the Ren Era. (1 AI was wiped out by the Barbs, Barb World is On)


JosEPh

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Currently, I am thinking that the fact that the linking techs give no benefit at all may be a factor. I can easily come up with a set of buildings for Scriptures but for the others I don't have any ideas.

 

[Koshling]

Currently, I am thinking that the fact that the linking techs give no benefit at all may be a factor. I can easily come up with a set of buildings for Scriptures but for the others I don't have any ideas.

I'd rather fix the issue in the AI (or at least not jump onto other fixes until I understand why the AI doesn't research them).

Having looked at Joseph's AI log a bit, armed with the information about which religions to look for the problem is pretty clear - all of the un-founded religions are showing up as having value, but it's evaluating far too low compared to other factors (notably buildings) for other techs, so it keeps choosing some other new tech over old religious ones.

I'll scale the religion value up to bring them more in line.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Well there should be no empty techs anyway. Every tech should provide something in its own right or it should be removed.

 

[Koshling]

Well there should be no empty techs anyway. Every tech should provide something in its own right or it should be removed.

Well, founded religions ARE empty techs in effect so the AI has to cope with them. Also we don't want the AI to just break if we are in the middle of developing an era and have a temporary unfilled-in tech in the tree.

 

[ls612]

Well there should be no empty techs anyway. Every tech should provide something in its own right or it should be removed.

Some of them have nothing for now but will get stuff as we fill them out. Those should be left in IMO, even though they look useless to the players.

 

[JosEPh_II]

@Koshling,

Glad you found something to work with.

The Original "one off" tech idea I proposed for the religions was to break up the clusters. But as the techtree was evolving Hydro and others decided that some of them needed to be prereqs for future religions and techs. What evolved was that ,for ex., once you research Monotheism and then the new tech Resurrection you now have access to not just Judaism but also Astaru and Zorast. Hence they made a mini cluster again.

But as long as the AI "valued" Founding a Religion (as in v24) this was not a big problem. And the Religions were being founded and spread out as intended. How the Founding Religions got undervalued I have no idea. But it happened during v25 development stage.

@DH,
I believe we had this conversation about the founding Religion's tech being Dead end before. And I thought you were okay with it. What changed your mind?

JosEPh

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

@Koshling,

@DH,
I believe we had this conversation about the founding Religion's tech being Dead end before. And I thought you were okay with it. What changed your mind?

JosEPh

I have no trouble with dead end techs and believe there should be more. What I don't agree with is intermediate techs giving no benefit. There are a number of these the intermediate religion ones are the latest. There are still some writing ones without benefits also. On the tech Scriptures I was going to add a book for each religion which can only be built where the Holy Shrine is, can be built by a Great Prophet or with and reduces crime on each building of that religion. Now all I need to do is figure out what book and how to do the anti crime stuff.

 

[Vokarya]

I have no trouble with dead end techs and believe there should be more. What I don't agree with is intermediate techs giving no benefit. There are a number of these the intermediate religion ones are the latest. There are still some writing ones without benefits also. On the tech Scriptures I was going to add a book for each religion which can only be built where the Holy Shrine is, can be built by a Great Prophet or with and reduces crime on each building of that religion. Now all I need to do is figure out what book and how to do the anti crime stuff.

I was thinking of creating a Scriptorum building for Scriptures tech -- +10% culture, +5% science, requires State Religion. I'd like to have it give bonuses based on the religions in the city and/or train Missionaries faster (without having to write out every single missionary), but I don't think those are possible with the current tags.

One thing we do not have is a <TechExtraHappy> tag for buildings. This tag would give a building extra happiness at certain techs. I wanted Parliaments to give extra happiness to Forum and Polis Council, but I don't think that is possible.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Maybe AIAndy can make one? Or several?

JosEPh

 

[Vokarya]

@ls612 & Vokarya

Can one of you tweak tech please?

Sikhism
Cost: 2406
Location: X45 Y9
Req Tech: Critical Thought AND Hinduism AND Islam

This puts it in a more historical time period.

I'll do it tomorrow. You may want to look at tweaking the Sikh buildings -- they give an XP bonus to Melee units, but we will be moving Sikhism to the Renaissance era, and new Melee units will not be very common at that point.

There are some other religion placements that I don't completely agree with. I think Christianity, Islam, and Taoism all need to show up earlier in the tech tree. I'll work up my ideas and post it probably really late tonight or tomorrow.

 

[Azurian]

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