Tech Tree Discussion

[Hydromancerx]

Ok thanks for clearing that up.

 

[strategyonly]

I love how you're dating everything here Vokarya. Makes me think we might want to display that milestone and its date somewhere in the new tech popups. Something to say straightforward what event we've based the achievement of the tech on. Cool stuff man!

I actually really like POP-UPs, especially the ones that give you chooses of what to do as it effects you the player and HOW the game in interacting.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@Vokarya

I have been piloting out where units sit on the tree (see here) and I noticed something since you remade the Industrial Era. There use to be a bigger gap between the Police Squad and the Police Car. Now they sit with ...

Police Squad
Req Tech: Criminology (X60 Y3)
Strength: 30

Police Car
Req Tech: Motorized Transportation (X61 Y15) AND Radio (X61 Y11)
Strength: 40

Motorized Transportation use to be father apart at the end of the Industrial Era. What should I do to spread them apart? I am also unsure if Criminology flows through Radio and/or Motorized Transportation anymore.

In fact that's one of the other issues. You helped reduce many redundancys before but then when you move the techs they might not be redundant anymore and thus not list a tech requirement they should have, but don't because it was redundant to list it before.

 

[Vokarya]

So here's the middle of the Modern Era. More than anything else, this is the Space Age. Just about all the early space-related technologies are here. Again, italic technologies are the ones that are broad enough that they can be moved to other places.

Tech Date Event
Advanced Rocketry 1957 First ICBM (Soviet R-7)
Satellites 1957 Sputnik I launched
Conglomerates 1960 Company diversification
Laser 1960 First laser operated
Astrogeology 1961 Shoemaker founds planetary science
Astronautics 1961 Gagarin goes into space
Hydroponics 1961 Nutrient film technique developed
Semiconductors 1961 First sales of integrated circuits
Ecology 1962 Silent Spring launches ecological movement
3D Modeling 1964 CAD systems in use
Modern Warfare 1964 US engagement in Vietnam
Stealth 1964 SR-71 Blackbird
Astro Environmental Systems 1965 First extravehicular activity in space
Fuel Cells 1965 Fuel cells used in Project Gemini
Modern Seismology 1965 Acceptance of plate tectonics theory
Composites 1966 Nomex developed
Counterculture 1967 Summer of Love
Modern Sports 1967 Super Bowl I
Fire Suppression 1968 National Park Service begins allowing fire as ecological process
Climate Models 1969 First climate model at NOAA
Computer Networks 1969 ARPANet launched
Legalized Gambling 1969 First Las Vegas megaresort
Lunar Exploration 1969 Apollo Program
Robotics 1969 Stanford Arm, first computer-controlled robotic arm
Aquaculture 1970 Commercial fish and shrimp farms in operation
Fiber Optics 1970 Practical fiber optic cables developed
Ion Propulsion 1970 SERT-II test in orbit
Recycling 1970 Recycling symbol developed
Microprocessor 1971 Intel 4004 (first single-chip microprocessor)
Space Stations 1971 Salyut I launched

Modern Warfare is the hardest tech to place on this list. I went with the beginning of the American involvement in Vietnam. The units here are really all over the map in terms of their historical introduction; we have everything from the hydrogen bomb, introduced in the 1950's, and the Modern Carrier (I prefer the name supercarrier, but that's a personal choice), which first appears with USS Forrestal in 1955, all the way to the Thermobaric Tank, which didn't appear until the 1980's (and seems way too strong for its current placement), and the Stealth Fighter, which by reading its XML and pedia text, is supposed to represent the F-35 Lightning II fighter, which is still not in service. So that doesn't help. I think something needs to be moved around, but I have no idea what.

I also have never really liked the prerequisites for this tech -- I think 7 is way too many -- and what I would like to do is collapse it to a more reasonable 4; Amphibious Warfare + Guerrilla Warfare + Mechanized Warfare + Supersonic Flight. This ties up the very-late Industrial Era war techs, while Supersonic Flight keeps the tech in the middle Modern Era instead of the early part of the era. There's already a 4-tech chain to Supersonic Flight: Modern Physics - Aerodynamics - Jet Propulsion - Supersonic Flight.

 

[Vokarya]

@Vokarya

I have been piloting out where units sit on the tree (see here) and I noticed something since you remade the Industrial Era. There use to be a bigger gap between the Police Squad and the Police Car. Now they sit with ...

Police Squad
Req Tech: Criminology (X60 Y3)
Strength: 30

Police Car
Req Tech: Motorized Transportation (X61 Y15) AND Radio (X61 Y11)
Strength: 40

Motorized Transportation use to be father apart at the end of the Industrial Era. What should I do to spread them apart? I am also unsure if Criminology flows through Radio and/or Motorized Transportation anymore.

The problem is that Criminology right now is a really broad tech. I put the tech itself at 1872, which is when the Bertillon system of measuring criminals was invented, but police forces are earlier in the century, with the London Metropolitan Police being an 1829 establishment. I don't believe the tech system is fine-grained enough to support two separate techs for this.

Criminology, Motorized Transportation, and Radio are all at the same level of tech difficulty. None of them go through each other (Motorized Transportation and Radio share a common ancestor tech at Steel, and you have to go back to Assembly Line to get a prereq in common with Criminology). I think if you put both Motorized Transportation and Radio on the Police Car, that might be enough. The only other thing I can think of is to break the requirement between the Police Squad and Police Station and move the Squad earlier; Firefighting might work for that.

In fact that's one of the other issues. You helped reduce many redundancys before but then when you move the techs they might not be redundant anymore and thus not list a tech requirement they should have, but don't because it was redundant to list it before.

I think that's just something we will have to look for as it's reported. If someone sees something odd, they can post it as a bug and then we can fix it.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@Vokarya

I tracked down what I thought was a un-redundacy. The Police Station made it so you have to have Criminology researched if you want to make the Police Car.

Also I don't want to move the Police Squad earlier because it needs the Police Station. Plus on the tree its the Police Car that is Over powered for that era. So I think that moving it back would be a better idea. Somewhere halfway between the Police Squad (X60) and Police ACP (X73).

Some possible techs Armored Vehicles (X65), Automatic Weapons (X65), Plastics (X65), Guerrilla Warfare (X66) or Electronics (X68). Which one do you think would fit?

 

[Vokarya]

@Vokarya

I tracked down what I thought was a un-redundacy. The Police Station made it so you have to have Criminology researched if you want to make the Police Car.

Also I don't want to move the Police Squad earlier because it needs the Police Station. Plus on the tree its the Police Car that is Over powered for that era. So I think that moving it back would be a better idea. Somewhere halfway between the Police Squad (X60) and Police ACP (X73).

Some possible techs Armored Vehicles (X65), Automatic Weapons (X65), Plastics (X65), Guerrilla Warfare (X66) or Electronics (X68). Which one do you think would fit?

I think Armored Vehicles works the best. That would cover the general improvements to vehicles needed to produce a true police car.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Sounds good. I will post in the other thread then.

 

[Vokarya]

So at this point I have the new Modern Era mapped out (Superconductors was a sticking point, but I've solved it) and I'm moving to remap the Transhuman Era along the lines of what I did for the Classical and Medieval Eras; columns equate to techs needed to reach the column, but not changing prerequisites too much.

The significant changes that I want to make are moving the basic Lunar techs (L Colonization, L Manufacturing, L Tourism, and L Trade) to the Transhuman Era. The question is: how far along the Transhuman Era should the Lunar techs start?

The primary sticking point is the placement of Advanced Environmental Systems, which is the prerequisite tech for Lunar Colonization. Currently, AES has prerequisites of Orbital Flight + Space Stations, which places it nearly towards the end of the Transhuman (level 13 out of 14 - the Transhuman Era, along with the Prehistoric and Galactic Eras, have more total levels and generally fewer techs per level than the basic BTS Eras). If we leave AES where it is, that's going to leave the Lunar techs pretty much hanging on their own in the space where the rest of the Transhuman techs end and the Galactics begin.

What I was thinking is to move Advanced Environmental Systems to Commercial Spaceflight + Marine Architecture. This is about 1/3rd of the way through the Transhuman Era. (The column designations are getting yanked around right now; Modern Era now runs up to X82).

At that point, I can pull Lunar Colonization back into the middle of the Transhuman Era, or I can pick another prerequisite for Lunar Colonization that would put it pretty much anywhere in the era.

Let me know what you think would work best.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@Vokarya

The primary sticking point is the placement of Advanced Environmental Systems, which is the prerequisite tech for Lunar Colonization. Currently, AES has prerequisites of Orbital Flight + Space Stations, which places it nearly towards the end of the Transhuman (level 13 out of 14 - the Transhuman Era, along with the Prehistoric and Galactic Eras, have more total levels and generally fewer techs per level than the basic BTS Eras). If we leave AES where it is, that's going to leave the Lunar techs pretty much hanging on their own in the space where the rest of the Transhuman techs end and the Galactics begin.

Advanced Environmental Systems
This is basically all the scifi style airlocks and artificial atmosphere you see in space movies. Which is why the Orbital Factory and Zero G Sports Arena are there. They are taking modern tech and placing it in space. Note that these systems are much better than the old Space Station style systems. In short its stuff we don't quite know how to do yet but would if we had more experience in space.

Orbital Flight and Space Stations are obvious requirements because you need to take the stuff you learned from space stations a long with the transportation of Orbital Flight.

What I was thinking is to move Advanced Environmental Systems to Commercial Spaceflight + Marine Architecture. This is about 1/3rd of the way through the Transhuman Era. (The column designations are getting yanked around right now; Modern Era now runs up to X82).

At that point, I can pull Lunar Colonization back into the middle of the Transhuman Era, or I can pick another prerequisite for Lunar Colonization that would put it pretty much anywhere in the era.

Let me know what you think would work best.

Hmm. I like the idea of Commercial Spaceflight instead of Orbital Flight and I assume Space Stations just makes it redundant. I don't think you need Marine Architecture. But it probably would not hurt to know that kind of thing.

I will take a closer look at this soon. I suspect that since Commercial Spaceflight is new and it was not accounted for with the existing Space Tourism tech. In fact I am not sure what the different between the two techs are.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@Vokarya

How about this ...

Advanced Environmental Systems
Req Techs: Commercial Space Flight
Location: X83 Y3

Notes: No need for Marine Architecture requirement.

Marine Architecture
Req Techs: Advanced Environmental Systems AND Genesis Biology AND Unmanned Naval Vehicles

Notes: I flipped it around where this tech needs Advanced Environmental Systems. See?

Lunar Colonization
Req Techs: Advanced Environmental Systems
Location: X84 Y3

Notes: New location and removed redundant techs.

Lunar Tourism
Req Techs: Lunar Colonization
Location: X85 Y3

Notes: New location and removed redundant techs.

Lunar Manufacturing
Req Techs: Lunar Colonization AND Powered Exoskeleton
Location: X85 Y7

Notes: Same requirements but new location.

Lunar Megastructures
Req Techs: Lunar Tourism AND Lunar Manufacturing AND Orbital Megastructures
Location: X99 Y1

Notes: Same requirements just moved over.

Lunar Trade
Req Techs: Planetary Economics AND Solar Propulsion AND Mass Driver AND Orbital Flight

Notes: Added back in the loop Orbital Flight. The location depends upon the othe techs. Somewhere in the Galactic Era.

So what do you think? I think I accounted for all the loose ends of techs.

 

[Vokarya]

@Vokarya
Advanced Environmental Systems
This is basically all the scifi style airlocks and artificial atmosphere you see in space movies. Which is why the Orbital Factory and Zero G Sports Arena are there. They are taking modern tech and placing it in space. Note that these systems are much better than the old Space Station style systems. In short its stuff we don't quite know how to do yet but would if we had more experience in space.

Orbital Flight and Space Stations are obvious requirements because you need to take the stuff you learned from space stations a long with the transportation of Orbital Flight.

Hmm. I like the idea of Commercial Spaceflight instead of Orbital Flight and I assume Space Stations just makes it redundant. I don't think you need Marine Architecture. But it probably would not hurt to know that kind of thing.

I will take a closer look at this soon. I suspect that since Commercial Spaceflight is new and it was not accounted for with the existing Space Tourism tech. In fact I am not sure what the different between the two techs are.

What I see is this: Space Tourism is one-shot trips, where a very rich person is paying for a one-time ride into space with a government program. Commercial Spaceflight is where space flight has gotten to the point that it is no longer restricted to governments. I think Orbital Flight is where space travel is routine.

Space Stations is redundant with Commercial Spaceflight, and I added Marine Architecture as another tech that gives experience working in inhospitable environments.

 

[Vokarya]

@Vokarya

How about this ...

Advanced Environmental Systems
Req Techs: Commercial Space Flight
Location: X83 Y3

Notes: No need for Marine Architecture requirement.

Marine Architecture
Req Techs: Advanced Environmental Systems AND Genesis Biology AND Unmanned Naval Vehicles

Notes: I flipped it around where this tech needs Advanced Environmental Systems. See?

Lunar Colonization
Req Techs: Advanced Environmental Systems
Location: X84 Y3

Notes: New location and removed redundant techs.

Lunar Tourism
Req Techs: Lunar Colonization
Location: X85 Y3

Notes: New location and removed redundant techs.

Lunar Manufacturing
Req Techs: Lunar Colonization AND Powered Exoskeleton
Location: X85 Y7

Notes: Same requirements but new location.

Lunar Megastructures
Req Techs: Lunar Tourism AND Lunar Manufacturing AND Orbital Megastructures
Location: X99 Y1

Notes: Same requirements just moved over.

Lunar Trade
Req Techs: Planetary Economics AND Solar Propulsion AND Mass Driver AND Orbital Flight

Notes: Added back in the loop Orbital Flight. The location depends upon the othe techs. Somewhere in the Galactic Era.

So what do you think? I think I accounted for all the loose ends of techs.

I'd rather keep Marine Architecture on the prerequisites for Advanced Environmental Systems. I think the Marine work is less difficult than long-term space life, so you would get that first.

Anything Megastructures needs to stay Galactic. I think that is the appropriate era for something of that magnitude. I deliberately left it out; it's really not part of the discussion.

Here's my current Transhuman map:

x83 x84 x85 x86 x87 x88 x89 x90 x91 x92 x93 x94 x95 x96 x97 x98 x99 x100
y1 Biopunk Biomechanical Harvesting Military Robotics Disaster Robots Asteroid Belt Probes Asteroid Mining Advanced Environmental Systems Lunar Colonization Lunar Manufacturing Orbital Flight Invisibility
y3 Advanced Molecular Biology Biomathematics Molecular Medicine Genome Encyclopedia Replacement Organs Jovian Exploration Lunar Tourism Solar Propulsion Magnetic Sails Supersonic Rails Skyroads Artificial Photosynthesis
y5 Ecological Engineering Genesis Biology Marine Architecture Advanced Digital Warfare Wireless Electricity Accelerated Germination Antigrav
y7 Unmanned Naval Vehicles Metamaterials Brain-Machine Interface Affective Algorithms Thought Scanning Holographics Nanobotics Interactive Glass Environmental Economics
y9 Exoplanet Discovery Commercial Spaceflight Liquid Metals Nanogenerators Plastic Electronics Nanoelectronics Advanced Computers Artificial Intelligence Universal Translator Personal Robots
y11 Imaginary Physics Organic Photonics Augmented Reality Genomic Health Care Fusion Internal Shockwave Engine Warmachines Androids Planetary Economics Lunar Trade
y13 Controlled Plasma Graphene Railgun Mass Driver Automated Services Automated Urbanization Vertical Farming Quantum Computing
y15 Online Community Rapid Prototyping Automated Traffic Direct Merchandising Virtual Society Hypersonic Flight Ontological Engineering Biomimetics Superstrong Alloys Cyberpunk
y17 Digital Warfare Micromechanics Microgenerators Ubiquitous Computing Mesh Networks Megacorporations Novus Chemistry Bionics Exocortex Networks Cyberimmunology Cybernetics Species Uplifting Homo Superior
y19 Flash Memory Powered Exoskeleton Gene Enhancement Gene Jurisprudence Rapid Recuperation Anti-Aging Medicine Smart Drugs Regenerative Medicine DNA Computing

Blue techs are moved from the Galactic Era. Red is a new tech. These are the changes to the prerequisites.

• Asteroid Mining is a new tech. It requires Asteroid Belt Probes + Controlled Plasma + Powered Exoskeleton.
• Advanced Environmental Systems requires Commercial Spaceflight + Marine Architecture.
• Lunar Colonization requires Advanced Environmental Systems (no change).
• Mass Driver requires Asteroid Mining + Railgun (change Asteroid Extraction to Asteroid Mining).
• Lunar Manufacturing requires Lunar Colonization + Powered Exoskeleton (no change).
• Lunar Tourism requires Lunar Colonization (Space Tourism is redundant).
• Solar Propulsion requires Asteroid Mining + Lunar Tourism (change Asteroid Extraction to Asteroid Mining)
• Nanobotics is unchanged but moved to the Transhuman Era. Its only prerequisite is Nanoelectronics, which is in the middle of the Transhuman Era.
• Planetary Economics is unchanged, but since all of its prerequisites are now Transhuman, it can move to the Transhuman as well.
• Lunar Trade can add Orbital Flight: Mass Driver + Orbital Flight + Planetary Economics + Solar Propulsion.

I also want to, if possible, stop up what I call "backdoor" techs into a new era, where you can skip too many of the techs that are late in one era before you start the next. It's like what I did with Civil Service; the original requirements were too easy to reach during the Classical Era, so I created some new requirements that would force you to wait longer before you could get CS and thereby start the Medieval Era. I haven't done much analysis with the Galactic Era ever since we cleaned up the Transhuman Era and I wasn't sure what was happening next.

I'll do another post for Asteroid Mining and explain what I would like to see.

 

[Vokarya]

In the last post, I suggested a new tech called Asteroid Mining. This would be a precursor to Asteroid Extraction, which would stay in the Galactic Era. This is how I think the two are different:

• In Asteroid Mining, you send a spaceship to an asteroid. The miners work on the asteroid and ship the material back to Earth.
• In Asteroid Extraction, you bring an asteroid to Earth and an orbital facility dismantles the asteroid down to its component elements. This is much more reliable and generates more material.

So Asteroid Mining would have a new unit called the Asteroid Miner. This unit would have a mission ability called Mine Asteroids. After you use it, you would wait X turns and then find out the results:

• Disaster (small chance): You get nothing. The miners are lost.
• Dud (larger chance): The miners didn't find anything. You get an Asteroid Mining Crew unit that you can then upgrade back to an Asteroid Miner. The Mining Crew can't be built, but can upgrade to the Miner.
• Success (most likely result): The miners find material. You get an Asteroid Mining Crew and an Asteroid Material unit. The Asteroid Material can be used like a Caravan to produce something.
• Jackpot (small chance): The miners find a lot of stuff. You get your Mining Crew and multiple Asteroid Material units.

Asteroid Extraction would have a building (Orbital, of course) for taking apart asteroids. It would basically offer a very large hammer bonus, but it would be a consistent bonus.

 

[strategyonly]

Geez, you really moved a "few" techs back, it seem like it is "finally" coming together like (in lack of a better term) RL. I personally would like to Thank You and everyone for helping out on this "much needed" era, now the struggle begins.

 

[Vokarya]

Geez, you really moved a "few" techs back, it seem like it is "finally" coming together like (in lack of a better term) RL. I personally would like to Thank You and everyone for helping out on this "much needed" era, now the struggle begins.

This is pretty much the end, though. The only thing I think we should do with the Galactic Era is move everything about 6 columns to the right to make room for all the spreading-out I did with the Modern and Transhuman Eras. I don't think the Galactic Era is ready for any real work until we have something we can actually do with it.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

One thing that you may consider is the idea of capturing near earth asteroids and mining them. There are already companies looking int this sort of thing. Some plan to move the rock into orbit and then move the mine to the asteroid others are looking at having the mining facility at the stable Lagrange points and moving the rocks there. This sort of technology is probably based somewhere about the same time as Lunar Colonies but should be easier because you don't have to go down the well again.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@Vokarya

I'd rather keep Marine Architecture on the prerequisites for Advanced Environmental Systems. I think the Marine work is less difficult than long-term space life, so you would get that first.

Fair enough. I can go along with that.

Anything Megastructures needs to stay Galactic. I think that is the appropriate era for something of that magnitude. I deliberately left it out; it's really not part of the discussion.

It was on my tree. I see you have redone a lot of the tech tree. We have just come to the same conclusion that Megastructures are for the Galactic Era.

Asteroid Mining is a new tech. It requires Asteroid Belt Probes + Controlled Plasma + Powered Exoskeleton.

Why not just move back Asteroid Extraction? Or is it linked to too many techs? Er nevermind I just read your 2nd post. Yeah that makes sense.

Mass Driver requires Asteroid Mining + Railgun (change Asteroid Extraction to Asteroid Mining).

Ah ok. Cool. I like how you moved it earlier.

Solar Propulsion requires Asteroid Mining + Lunar Tourism (change Asteroid Extraction to Asteroid Mining)

So the Asteroid Mining gives a reason to make the Solar Propulsion. Cool.

Species Uplifting

Oh good I see you fit that in there too.

Lunar Trade can add Orbital Flight: Mass Driver + Orbital Flight + Planetary Economics + Solar Propulsion.

Yep. Just like I suggested.

I also want to, if possible, stop up what I call "backdoor" techs into a new era, where you can skip too many of the techs that are late in one era before you start the next. It's like what I did with Civil Service; the original requirements were too easy to reach during the Classical Era, so I created some new requirements that would force you to wait longer before you could get CS and thereby start the Medieval Era. I haven't done much analysis with the Galactic Era ever since we cleaned up the Transhuman Era and I wasn't sure what was happening next.

Yeah. That is a problem. I personalty like having bottleneck techs like Sedentary Lifestyle. Its just hard to get them to work.

Asteroid Extraction would have a building (Orbital, of course) for taking apart asteroids. It would basically offer a very large hammer bonus, but it would be a consistent bonus.

Well in game terms Asteroids are Terrain Features just like Forests or Jungles. So I would say that one could "Chop" an Asteroid and get a similar bonus to the nearest "city". Note that we could have Space Outposts (Think Deep Space 9) to act like cities in space in the solar system map. And then on the Galactic map it would go to the nearest star system like in Final Frontier.

In fact it might be cool to do the same for Nebula gas and collect the gas.

CONCLUSION

You new chart looks awesome. I am not sure how you do it but great job! I full approve your proposal.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Can we please make the Clock Punk tech dependent on the Clock Punk culture being active! I just researched it in my latest game only to find out that the culture is not active. Same goes for all the other dead end techs.

So the Druid tech for example should only be in games where the Druid religion is. To do this change

		<TechInfo>
			<Type>TECH_DRUIDISM</Type>
			<Description>TXT_KEY_TECH_DRUIDISM</Description>
			<Civilopedia>TXT_KEY_RELIGION_DRUIDISM_PEDIA</Civilopedia>

to

		<TechInfo>
			<Type>TECH_DRUIDISM</Type>
			<Description>TXT_KEY_TECH_DRUIDISM</Description>
			<AndDependencyTypes>
             			<DependencyType>RELIGION_DRUID</DependencyType>
 			</AndDependencyTypes>
			<Civilopedia>TXT_KEY_RELIGION_DRUIDISM_PEDIA</Civilopedia>

Or do you want me to do it.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@Vokarya

Here is an icon/button for your new Asteroid Mining tech.