Tech Tree Discussion

Not to make a pun but there is a lot of "empty space" in the Galactic era. Since we are not going to be doing anything with it for a long while they should at least be orderly until we do stuff with them. I think the single space between existing columns is more than enough for now.

I agree with this. We have 73 Galactic techs (less if we move the Lunar techs out), and 270 spaces of Galactic Era to put things in. We could do some more with spreading out the techs so there are fewer of them per column.
 
A few months ago, I proposed moving the Classical Era technologies around in order to make them more consistent with the actual numbers of prerequisites you need in order to research them, evening out the spacing for if/when we need to place new techs, and assign a consistent cost by column to Classical techs like we currently have with the Prehistoric and Ancient Eras. The first post is Post 872 in this thread. I'm not proposing any changes of prerequisites or era (with one exception), just adjustments to the location and then adding a new base cost scheme.

To summarize the previous post: each tech has a "level" based on its prerequisites. All of the techs that have Advances to the Classical Era are level 1; if you have all level-1 Classical Era techs, the list of techs you can research makes up level-2; and so on. The Classical Era tops out at level 6. Then I have assigned the different levels to columns so that techs flow into each other consistently.

I have done some modifications to my original scheme, based on Hydro wanting to keep religion techs next to their triggering techs. This is possible with most techs, except for Zoroastrianism, since it shares Monotheism with Judaism. Judaism will get the slot right next to Monotheism, and Zoroastrianism will be right next to it.

So, here is how the levels break down into the columns:

Level 1
Level 1 has 12 techs. In order to leave the most possible space in each column, I have it broken down Level 1 into 7 techs in column X27 and 5 techs in X28.

I put Judaism and Zoroastrianism in X27 so as to put them right next to Monotheism in the Ancient Era. I put Ship Building and Meditation in X28 so that Asatru and Buddhism will flow nicely into them.

Then I fill out X27 with 5 of the currently-cheaper techs from that level. The remaining 3 techs fill out X28.

What I wound up with is the following.
Spoiler :
In X27:
  • Alphabet
  • Currency
  • Glass Blowing
  • Judaism
  • Mathematics
  • Monarchy
  • Zoroastrianism
In X28:
  • Athletics
  • Cloud Patterns
  • Horse Breeding
  • Meditation
  • Ship Building
Level 2
Level 2 has 13 techs. A 3-7-3 split will work nicely. This will put 8 total techs in column X28, 7 total techs in X29, and 3 techs in X30, leaving the rest for level 3 technologies.

I start here by putting Asatru and Buddhism in column X29 so they will be next to Ship Building and Meditation. Likewise, Hellenism and Combat Sports go in X29 so they can be next to Athletics.

I then put the three cheapest remaining techs (Geometry, Iron Working, and Road Building) in X28, the three most expensive remaining techs (Construction, Literature, and Mounted Archery) in X30, leaving the last three techs to X29. This is what the final result looks like:

Spoiler :
In X28:
  • Geometry
  • Iron Working
  • Road Building
In X29:
  • Aristocracy
  • Asatru
  • Buddhism
  • Calendar
  • Code of Laws
  • Combat Sports
  • Hellenism
In X30:
  • Construction
  • Literature
  • Mounted Archery

Level 3
Level 3 has another 12 technologies. I originally had them split 5/7, but a 4/8 split works just as well, putting 7 techs in column X30 and 8 in column X31.

I work this level from both ends: Astrology and Naghualism go in X30 so they can be next to Calendar in X29. Spice Trade and Ancient Medicine are in X31 so they can be next to Drug Trade (I've already determined level-4 is X32 by itself). Calligraphy is X31 so it can be next to X32's Aesthetics and Insurance. Meritocracy is X31 so it can be next to X32's Confucianism and Philosophy.

Construction is X30, so all of its immediate neighbor techs (Andeanism, Ancient Ballistics, and Concrete) are in X31. Likewise, Mounted Archery is in X30, so I put Stirrup in X31 right next to it. Stirrup doesn't actually require Mounted Archery, but this leaves the horse technologies next to each other. This leaves only 2 techs to get forced into X30.

This is what I wound up with:
Spoiler :
In X30:
  • Astrology
  • City Planning
  • Democracy
  • Naghualism

In X31:
  • Ancient Ballistics
  • Ancient Medicine
  • Andeanism
  • Calligraphy
  • Concrete
  • Meritocracy
  • Spice Trade
  • Stirrup

Level 4
I already decided that the 7 Level 4 technologies (Aesthetics, Canal Systems, Confucianism, Drug Trade, Insurance, Philosophy and Siege Warfare) make an excellent column by themselves. This makes up the new column X32.

Levels 5 and 6
Level 5 is 10 technologies, and level 6 is only 3. Therefore, if I split Level 5 into 7 techs in column X33, and add the remaining 3 to level 6's 3 techs, it will make a good column X34.

I start by putting the Level 5 technologies that are directly required for Level 6 techs in X33 (Drama for Music and Poetry, Mosaic Working and Machinery for Paved Roads). Then I pick 3 of the remaining Level 5 techs to fill in X34. Smithing and Weather Lore are the two most expensive remaining techs, and I pick Vassalage over Sanitation to bridge the gap between the Classical Era and the Medieval Era.

Also, I want to move the Taoism tech from the Medieval Era to here. Historically, Taoist schools were active before 1 CE, so that places this tech in the Classical Era. Sikhism has already left the Classical Era for the Renaissance, so I can put Taoism off Philosophy without it being near any other religions.

This is what I wound up with:
Spoiler :
In X33:
  • Drama
  • Floristry
  • Jainism
  • Machinery
  • Mosaic Working
  • Sanitation
  • Taoism
In X34:
  • Music
  • Paved Roads
  • Poetry
  • Smithing
  • Vassalage
  • Weather Lore

I know that's a lot of text, but I want to explain what I am trying to accomplish.

If this is agreeable, the next post will cover assigning the technologies to their spaces within the columns, and how I settled on the cost scheme.
 
As of current tech tree, you can beeline almost straight through the middle of it, leaving about half behind.

Infact in my current game, i am at Music, and the lead AI is 18 "GRIDS" ahead of me, thats GRIDS!!! He is already past Encyclopedia tech :blush::(
 
Just as a generality, techs fly by too quickly. Modern era before 1ad? I'll put carriers on the AI's coast before they can research metal ships. Is there any way to introduce a mechanism to make it -really- difficult to research techs that nobody else can yet research? IE: if you're far ahead of the rest, make it hard to get further ahead of them.

I know civ4 comes prepacked with something like this, but with so very many techs in this mod, I feel it needs something much more restricting that gets applied if a tech can only be researched by one civ. Like a massive 500% cost in beakers, to make it five times longer to research until someone else unlocks the ability to also research that tech.

I would absolutely love an option like this when setting up a custom game. the way I play, with early conquering and focusing on stargazing, code of laws, literature, astrology, astronomy, education, etc... deity isn't a real challenge. part of that is due to the play of the AI, but part of it is also due to teching so rapidly.
 
Just as a generality, techs fly by too quickly. Modern era before 1ad? I'll put carriers on the AI's coast before they can research metal ships. Is there any way to introduce a mechanism to make it -really- difficult to research techs that nobody else can yet research? IE: if you're far ahead of the rest, make it hard to get further ahead of them.

I know civ4 comes prepacked with something like this, but with so very many techs in this mod, I feel it needs something much more restricting that gets applied if a tech can only be researched by one civ. Like a massive 500% cost in beakers, to make it five times longer to research until someone else unlocks the ability to also research that tech.

I would absolutely love an option like this when setting up a custom game. the way I play, with early conquering and focusing on stargazing, code of laws, literature, astrology, astronomy, education, etc... deity isn't a real challenge. part of that is due to the play of the AI, but part of it is also due to teching so rapidly.
Increase overall % of tech costs across the board on gamespeed infos and turn up the global define that controls the strength of tech diffusion and you have a similar mechanism to what you're talking about. (I completely agree with this assessment btw.)
 
Is there any way to introduce a mechanism to make it -really- difficult to research techs that nobody else can yet research? IE: if you're far ahead of the rest, make it hard to get further ahead of them.

I played an onlinegame called "icewars" a long time ago. They had such a mechanism:
If you research a tech way before others, the techs hat a cost of up to 200%. So maybe if you reearch fission in 1500 they would cost 200% breakers. if you research it 1890, its 120% and so on.
And they had a mechanism for newer players: if 100 Player researched a tech, it only costs 95%, if 1000 had it, it was 70% and if 4000 players researched it, tech tech cost was only 20% (I think).

Maybe you could use this as an idea how to solve those problems...
 
Increase overall % of tech costs across the board on gamespeed infos and turn up the global define that controls the strength of tech diffusion and you have a similar mechanism to what you're talking about. (I completely agree with this assessment btw.)

That's what the EraInfos modifier was all about. Unfortunately, even though I know that this issue exists and have values that would fix it calculated, both Hydro and SO are opposed to making it go any slower, so my hands are tied.

@Vokarya:

I like those ideas, and would not be opposed to implementing them in the Long Freeze.
 
That's what the EraInfos modifier was all about. Unfortunately, even though I know that this issue exists and have values that would fix it calculated, both Hydro and SO are opposed to making it go any slower, so my hands are tied.

@Vokarya:

I like those ideas, and would not be opposed to implementing them in the Long Freeze.

When did i say that??
 
@ls612

Maybe we can make a poll. Everybody will vote what they want.

After vote count we will know what players want.
 
@ls612

Maybe we can make a poll. Everybody will vote what they want.

After vote count we will know what players want.

No offense but what good is a poll, all you have to do is, if you dont want it, turn it on or off. .
 
When did i say that??

I could swear that back in July when I increased some building and unit costs you said no more cost increases. But I may be remembering incorrectly, a lot has happened since then. :crazyeye: At any rate, I have a compromise in the Long Freeze thread, so please take a look at that.
 
I could swear that back in July when I increased some building and unit costs you said no more cost increases. But I may be remembering incorrectly, a lot has happened since then. :crazyeye: At any rate, I have a compromise in the Long Freeze thread, so please take a look at that.

I remembered you increased the building and unit cost for the prehistoric era which made everything so slow you could not even build anything before the the tech obsoleted the units you were making . For example you could get to Cooking tech before you finished building a termite mound.

Science modifiers for eras and difficulty could be useful. And as we said before increasing building costs in later eras is needed but overall prehistoric is balanced in building units and buildings compared to the science rate.

After that the values get skewed with each additional era.
 
I remembered you increased the building and unit cost for the prehistoric era which made everything so slow you could not even build anything before the the tech obsoleted the units you were making . For example you could get to Cooking tech before you finished building a termite mound.

Science modifiers for eras and difficulty could be useful. And as we said before increasing building costs in later eras is needed but overall prehistoric is balanced in building units and buildings compared to the science rate.

After that the values get skewed with each additional era.

Yeah, see my post on the Long Freeze thread about my plan for Gamespeeds. Combined with the Building cost changes I set out before, that should go a long way towards addressing JosEPh's issue of the "three mods".
 
I remembered you increased the building and unit cost for the prehistoric era which made everything so slow you could not even build anything before the the tech obsoleted the units you were making . For example you could get to Cooking tech before you finished building a termite mound.

Science modifiers for eras and difficulty could be useful. And as we said before increasing building costs in later eras is needed but overall prehistoric is balanced in building units and buildings compared to the science rate.

After that the values get skewed with each additional era.

In my proposals, I am not trying to change the total base beaker cost per era too much. That way I don't invalidate any calculations that have already been done, and you can apply whatever modifiers you want on top of the base.
 
I am re-posting this her fro our PM since I think it might be better than what we have. Also the requirements make more sense than Construction tech.

Andeanism
Req Techs: Dualism AND Stargazing AND Divination
Location: X24 Y19
Cost: Same as Stargazing

Looks good to me, but we should increase the base cost to 105 so it is the same as the rest of column X24.
 
No offense but what good is a poll, all you have to do is, if you dont want it, turn it on or off. .
I agree with having an on off switch for that "you are too far ahead in research" punishment. I personally would always have it off just like I have tech diffusion off for the same reason... I like everyone to have equal research opportunities... Someone who spends all their time turning commerce into gold has an unfair advantage because they get to hurry their warrior units to attack everyone then get rewarded for being technologically behind by getting new techs for cheaply.. UNFAIR!

I like it when civs need to find a balence between research and warriors. Otherwise... It's just now fair.
 
I agree with having an on off switch for that "you are too far ahead in research" punishment. I personally would always have it off just like I have tech diffusion off for the same reason... I like everyone to have equal research opportunities... Someone who spends all their time turning commerce into gold has an unfair advantage because they get to hurry their warrior units to attack everyone then get rewarded for being technologically behind by getting new techs for cheaply.. UNFAIR!

I like it when civs need to find a balence between research and warriors. Otherwise... It's just now fair.

Yeah, I'd be fine with it being toggleable.

I would personally never use it as it's basically punishing me for doing good and I really am not a fan of such things.

This is especially seeing as turtleing up and teching past everyone is pretty much always my default strategy.
 
Yeah, I'd be fine with it being toggleable.

I would personally never use it as it's basically punishing me for doing good and I really am not a fan of such things.

This is especially seeing as turtleing up and teching past everyone is pretty much always my default strategy.
The problem is that that way tends to end any games far before the later eras.
If we want to fight the "Three mods" issue, then the challenge needs to be kept up. And one solution is to make it hard to run away too far by giving you a penalty if you are too far ahead (or any of the AIs is too far ahead). This means you can still get ahead but the further ahead the harder it gets unlike now when it actually gets easier and easier when you have a headstart.
 
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