Tech Tree Discussion

Thunderbrd said:
I noticed that riding archery seems really late in the tree for its usefulness... can that be moved back a bit somehow?
Click to expand...

Do you have any proposals on new requirements or a new location? Right now its ...

Mounted Archery
Req: Horse Breeding
Location: X30 Y19

Horse Breeding -> Mounted Archery

Horse Breeding
Req: Equine Domestication AND Animal Riding AND Military Training
Location: X28 Y19

From the looks of it its Military Training that pushes both back so much. The question is do we want it to need Horse Breeding?

We could possibly change it to ...

Mounted Archery
Req: Equine Domestication AND Animal Riding AND Archery
Location: X21 Y19

And then chnage Horse Breeding to ...

Horse Breeding
Req: Mounted Archery AND Military Training
Location: Same

Which in turn means Calvary Tactics should only need to require Flintlocks since having Mounted Archery would be redundant.

What do you think?

EDIT: However if we did this then the Chariot Archer would get less time to be around. It would go obsolete very fast. Possibly even not even get made with Chariotry where it is.

Yeah it looks like it would totally mess up the upgrade path for that line if we made it earlier.
 
Hydromancerx said:
EDIT: However if we did this then the Chariot Archer would get less time to be around. It would go obsolete very fast. Possibly even not even get made with Chariotry where it is.

Yeah it looks like it would totally mess up the upgrade path for that line if we made it earlier.
Click to expand...

No offense but WHO really cares, the chariot was NOT a good unit for combat anyways.

From what i am reading about 2100–1100 BCE, By the 4th century BCE, ALL chariotry had ceased to have military importance, replaced by cavalry everywhere.
Also only Asian nomads, the Chinese, Assyrian, Hittites, and Egyptians were known to use this type of chariots (Charioteers).
 
One thought that I've had: what we think of as fundamentalism is very much a 20th century concept, perhaps dating to the publication of The Fundamentals in 1910. What is currently in the tech tree as "Fundamentalism" might better called Theocracy or something along those lines. Then Fundamentalism could be added to the late Industrial era in order to flesh out the religious content of the latter half of the game.
 
strategyonly said:
No offense but WHO really cares, the chariot was NOT a good unit for combat anyways.

From what i am reading about 2100–1100 BCE, By the 4th century BCE, ALL chariotry had ceased to have military importance, replaced by cavalry everywhere.
Also only Asian nomads, the Chinese, Assyrian, Hittites, and Egyptians were known to use this type of chariots (Charioteers).
Click to expand...

They were quite useful in ancient times, the Egyptians used them to destroy tribes on their borders who had only infantry. The Hittites then stole that technology to subdue most of Mesopotamia. The Chariot only went the way of the dinosaur when Cavalry became good enough to outmanuver them and had enough charging strength to be more devastating. This came shortly after the birth of Christ and led to the era of Medieval Knights.
 
Dancing Hoskuld said:
Don't you mean why isn't World View - Slavery at the tech Slavery rather than at trade? They actually require both! Markets and selling probably should require trade but the others probably don't need to.
Click to expand...

I know it requires both. My problem is, that you can't actually have Slaves until you have Trade (which unlocks the Worldview). So what is Slavery (tech) good for if you can't have Slaves then? ;) I think you can leave the Slave Market at Trade, but move the Worldview to Slavery.
 
ls612 said:
They were quite useful in ancient times, the Egyptians used them to destroy tribes on their borders who had only infantry. The Hittites then stole that technology to subdue most of Mesopotamia. The Chariot only went the way of the dinosaur when Cavalry became good enough to outmaneuver them and had enough charging strength to be more devastating. This came shortly after the birth of Christ and led to the era of Medieval Knights.
Click to expand...

Isn't that what i said wrote, but in different words:rolleyes:
 
Faustmouse said:
I know it requires both. My problem is, that you can't actually have Slaves until you have Trade (which unlocks the Worldview). So what is Slavery (tech) good for if you can't have Slaves then? ;) I think you can leave the Slave Market at Trade, but move the Worldview to Slavery.
Click to expand...

Which is a bug not a tech discussion. I am testing that change at the moment.
 
Hydromancerx said:
Do you have any proposals on new requirements or a new location? Right now its ...

Mounted Archery
Req: Horse Breeding
Location: X30 Y19

Horse Breeding -> Mounted Archery

Horse Breeding
Req: Equine Domestication AND Animal Riding AND Military Training
Location: X28 Y19

From the looks of it its Military Training that pushes both back so much. The question is do we want it to need Horse Breeding?

We could possibly change it to ...

Mounted Archery
Req: Equine Domestication AND Animal Riding AND Archery
Location: X21 Y19

And then chnage Horse Breeding to ...

Horse Breeding
Req: Mounted Archery AND Military Training
Location: Same

Which in turn means Calvary Tactics should only need to require Flintlocks since having Mounted Archery would be redundant.

What do you think?

EDIT: However if we did this then the Chariot Archer would get less time to be around. It would go obsolete very fast. Possibly even not even get made with Chariotry where it is.

Yeah it looks like it would totally mess up the upgrade path for that line if we made it earlier.
Click to expand...
See... all that looks much better. Cavalry Tactics could also require Horse Breeding. Horse Breeding should also be necessary for the heavier Mounted Infantry and Knights as that's when breeding skills on horses were truly put to the test to breed animals capable of fearless battle - the horse archers strike me as riding horses that tend to bolt and they used that to their advantage rather than trying to change it.

I've also always thought that the Chariots should be stronger than the early riding and riding archery units so perhaps it could necessitate a tweaking of the upgrade paths there.

But leaving it as is makes the horse archer pretty much negated by the time you can get it. Their power, even if not all represented as strength, is not much greater than that of a basic rider, which has already by then become effectively countered by fully effective spears.
 
Dancing Hoskuld said:
Kemetism is still coming far too late. It should be changed to require Stargazing and (Polytheism or Cat Domestication or Mummification)
Click to expand...

I almost totally agree. I don't know how this fits with the tech tree, but I would think Polytheism would have to be the mandatory one. They were probably polytheistic before they were even Kemetic (well yes that is kind of what 'prerequisite' means - never mind). It was still Kemetism sort of under Akhenaten's sun-monotheism, but Kemetism as we know it couldn't have existed without there first being polytheism (imho).

While mummification was a Kemetic ritual, it was extremely peripheral to the 'practice' of the 'religion'. Something akin to the Delphic oracle or the Eleusinian Mysteries for Greco-Romans (and for that matter I suspect not all Scientologists are cryogenically frozen when they die). As for cats and Stargazing, I really don't know enough to comment on those as they relate to Ancient Egypt's religion.
 
Thunderbrd said:
See... all that looks much better. Cavalry Tactics could also require Horse Breeding. Horse Breeding should also be necessary for the heavier Mounted Infantry and Knights as that's when breeding skills on horses were truly put to the test to breed animals capable of fearless battle - the horse archers strike me as riding horses that tend to bolt and they used that to their advantage rather than trying to change it.

I've also always thought that the Chariots should be stronger than the early riding and riding archery units so perhaps it could necessitate a tweaking of the upgrade paths there.

But leaving it as is makes the horse archer pretty much negated by the time you can get it. Their power, even if not all represented as strength, is not much greater than that of a basic rider, which has already by then become effectively countered by fully effective spears.
Click to expand...

1. Horse Breeding already leads to Calvary Tactics through Flintlock tech. Having it would be redundant. Vokarya did a great job of reducing redundant tech requirements.

2. Chariots ARE stronger than early mounted units. Remember the Horseman / Camel Rider / Elephant Rider comes BEFORE Chariots. Its later that you get Mounted Infantry and then Horse Archers. It basically goes ...

Hoseman -> Early Chariot -> Chariot -> Chariot Archer -> Mounted Infantry -> Horse Archer

Note that they are on separate lines so those is more in the tech order than the upgrade order. There are 3 lines ...

Horseman -> Mounted Infantry ->

Chariot Archer -> Horse Archer ->

Early Chariot -> Chariot -> War Wagon ->

Each have their own specializations.

3. I think if anything the Horse Archer (and Horse Crossbowman) should be buffed if you think they are not useful enough where they are. Here is a timline ...

X17 = Horseman (6)
X24 = Early Chariot (4) and Chariot Archer (4)
X25 = Chariot (5)
X28 = Mounted Infantry (7)
X30 = Horse Archer (8)
X31 = Crossbow Horseman (8) and Light Calvary (8)
X32 = War Wagon (8)
X38 = Heavy Calvary (13)
X39 = Knight (11)
X40 = Mailed Knight (14)
X43 = Siege Wagon (12) and Cuirassier (15)
X45 = Dragoon (16)
X46 = Carabanier (21) and Lancer (18)
X52 = Calvary (27)
X63 = Trench Calvary (33)
 
If the number in brackets is the combat strength then I wonder why you say chariots are stronger than early units. 4 and 5 are both less than 6!
 
Chariots initial Promo is +50-75% vs melee so they are technically stronger than axe. But axe has been weakened over the last several versions. Str 5 axe kinda suck like str 6 light sword.

But to say the chariot is stronger than a Horseman, not really. Horseman is good against Archer and Chariot against melee. Horseman geerally takes out a base chariot.

JosEPh
 
Being strong against melee is a poor advantage when pretty much all strong units in the era are something else. Horsemen, Javelineers, Town Watchmen, Archers and Rangers are all more desirable than Axemen, and of those the only melee are Javelineers (Which is weird actually, since they upgrade from and to archery units), which have an inherent bonus against mounted. This means that Horsemen are far stronger in practice than Chariots.
 
MaXimillionZero said:
Being strong against melee is a poor advantage when pretty much all strong units in the era are something else. Horsemen, Javelineers, Town Watchmen, Archers and Rangers are all more desirable than Axemen, and of those the only melee are Javelineers (Which is weird actually, since they upgrade from and to archery units), which have an inherent bonus against mounted. This means that Horsemen are far stronger in practice than Chariots.
Click to expand...

Rather than +75% against melee how about +25% vs melee AND +50% grassland and plains attack?
 
Koshling said:
Rather than +75% against melee how about +25% vs melee AND +50% grassland and plains attack?
Click to expand...

I probably wouldn't personally build them even then, but it would make them much more viable. Aren't there a bunch more terrain types flat enough to make them useful though? Salt Flats, Barren, Scrub(?), Desert(?) and maybe a few others.
 
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