Tech Tree Discussion

[Publicola]

There are a number of large megalithic structures that predate sedentary communities. Current theory is that they were built at an annual meeting point of nomadic tribes.

That may be true, but take a look at the megalithic structures that actually show up in the game:

Gobekli Tepe -- constructed between 9000-7000 BC
Stonehenge -- constructed between 3000-2000 BC
Hill of Tara -- constructed sometime after 3000 BC
Moai Statues -- constructed between 1250-1500 AD

I may be forgetting one or two, and I know I'm omitting the Druidic/Shamanistic 'cathedrals,' but this is fairly comprehensive. With the exception of Gobekli Tepe, all of the in-game megalithic wonders can be dated to the Bronze Age, firmly within the Neolithic (post-agricultural) period. Only the Gobekli Tepe really fits the 'shortly before sedentary communities' timing that we have in-game.

 

[Arakhor]

I may be forgetting one or two, and I know I'm omitting the Druidic/Shamanistic 'cathedrals,' but this is fairly comprehensive. With the exception of Gobekli Tepe, all of the in-game megalithic wonders can be dated to the Bronze Age, firmly within the Neolithic (post-agricultural) period. Only the Gobekli Tepe really fits the 'shortly before sedentary communities' timing that we have in-game.

Publicola, the Bronze and the New Stone Age were really not the same thing and didn't start everywhere at the same time. For instance, in Sumeria, the first cities and (thus the Bronze Age) were starting around 5,500 BC, but in Britain, the Neolithic Era had yet to commence (in roughly 4,500 BC).

Stone, wood and pottery sculpture happen long before metal working!

Sculpture is in the column after Metal Casting, which suits the large Greek statuary which came around in the Classical era, so if you don't want it to have Metal Casting as a prerequisite, that's fine, but given its position in the tech tree, metal working can easily have been discovered by this time.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Sculpture is in the column after Metal Casting, which suits the large Greek statuary which came around in the Classical era, so if you don't want it to have Metal Casting as a prerequisite, that's fine, but given its position in the tech tree, metal working can easily have been discovered by this time.

I did not realise there was a strict requirement for time in the order of the techs! Other than grouping them by era.

 

[Arakhor]

You're saying that a tech that occurs to the left of another tech is not necessarily an earlier tech?

 

[JosEPh_II]

I did not realise there was a strict requirement for time in the order of the techs! Other than grouping them by era.

Say what DH???

When Hydro, ls612, and Vokarya worked on the Tech tree this was the way they had it set up. Each column represented a linear progression In the Era.

JosEPh

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

You're saying that a tech that occurs to the left of another tech is not necessarily an earlier tech?

Correct.

Say what DH???

When Hydro, ls612, and Vokarya worked on the Tech tree this was the way they had it set up. Each column represented a linear progression In the Era.

JosEPh

But one up one and left is not in the same line and so does not have to be exactly correct in time.

Lets face it they can't be vertically correct in time order since some will learn all military techs as far as they can before going back and learning the cultural techs.

 

[Arakhor]

Then you really need to talk with Thunderbrd, as he's setting it up (quite logically) so that techs to the left are easier to gain than techs to the right.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Then you really need to talk with Thunderbrd, as he's setting it up (quite logically) so that techs to the left are easier to gain than techs to the right.

I have. It is yet another reason that I should stop contributing to C2C as of v36 release.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I have. It is yet another reason that I should stop contributing to C2C as of v36 release.

Something has to define the reason for the tech cost. Something has to establish a basis. If there isn't that, then everything is just jumbled chaos.

Sure some civs won't adhere to the chart perfectly and they shouldn't. But just how much documentation do we want to have to, as modders, leave behind in our wake to explain why there are odd discrepancies in the research costs? Future modders must understand any variations I think. Players should be able to research and discover the reasons for variations from the norm.

I'm not saying we can't modify things according to various reasoning but the game will benefit from establishing base rules for modding. One example is that tech research times were speeding up tremendously in the late classical and throughout the middle ages (when in fact the middle ages was arduous for humanity to cross) and it was hard to understand why... but when you look at the progression chart as it was recently established it becomes obvious. Well... ONE reason becomes obvious anyhow.

As for timelines... true that other modders have established that as a good measure of how to place techs along the X columns. But also true that we can't be too stickler to that either. More important, imo, is the rationale for what stands as a prereq for what.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Also, if you move Education from (49,11) to (49,8), Acoustics from (50,5) to (50,11), Printing Press from (51,9) to (51,5) and Humanism from (51,11) to (51,9), you'll get a much nicer-looking transition between the Renaissance and Industrial Eras.

Done but not on SVN yet.

Canaanism and Mesopotamism should require Polytheism as they are polytheistic. Both will need to be moved after Polytheism.

edit Druidism is an Animist religion so should also go after Animism. We need two more religion techs Shamans (have Shamanism) and Pantheism.

 

[Arakhor]

Canaanism and Mesopotamism should require Polytheism as they are polytheistic. Both will need to be moved after Polytheism.

edit Druidism is an Animist religion so should also go after Animism. We need two more religion techs Shamans (have Shamanism) and Pantheism.

Well, that's going to hurt gameplay isn't it, as suddenly Hinduism, Kemetism, Canaanism and Mesopotamianism also spring into life at roughly the same time? Hindism and Kemetism are currently at the end of the Ancient Era, so with this idea, it'll mean that you get no religions at all until you reach Ngaiism and then a couple of techs later, you suddenly get four more.

It also drags out Druidism by at least four columns and makes it comparable with Shamanism. Is that really what you're after?

Moreover, if that's the expected design philosophy, why does Ngaiism require Dualism, when it seems to venerate a single supreme deity?

 

[Yudishtira]

Something has to define the reason for the tech cost. Something has to establish a basis. If there isn't that, then everything is just jumbled chaos.

Sure some civs won't adhere to the chart perfectly and they shouldn't. But just how much documentation do we want to have to, as modders, leave behind in our wake to explain why there are odd discrepancies in the research costs? Future modders must understand any variations I think. Players should be able to research and discover the reasons for variations from the norm.

The problem is that it forces everything worthy of a tech, that is discovered at the same point in time, to be in effect equally complex. That's seriously wrong. I don't want to denigrate any tech that others like, but Cubism for example was much easier to invent than Aviation (they may not be in exactly the same column, but hopefully you get my drift).

As for documentation, it actually becomes less necessary when the tree makes more intuitive sense...

 

[Thunderbrd]

The problem is that it forces everything worthy of a tech, that is discovered at the same point in time, to be in effect equally complex. That's seriously wrong. I don't want to denigrate any tech that others like, but Cubism for example was much easier to invent than Aviation (they may not be in exactly the same column, but hopefully you get my drift).

As for documentation, it actually becomes less necessary when the tree makes more intuitive sense...

One could equally as argue that Cubism is easier to develop than Agriculture.

This is a game and it must be developed in a scientific manner. I'm not saying that we can't or even shouldn't have variations in costs based on factors such as the perception of complexity. But if the game doesn't have a progressing tech cost that expands at a rate we should be able to expect the average player to progress their research ability at then we keep twisting dials at random to try to achieve a balance.

Establishing a fairly smooth progression curve in costs means we can then look at whether or not research and commerce providing sources are too strong or not strong enough to fairly match that progression without always second guessing if it's just the cost that's out of whack.

So we have two opposing forces to balance. One being the cost and the other being the amount of research being generated. If we have both of them lacking an anchor then we can only apply art and not a scientific method. In such a method you must anchor as many controls as you can.

It's much harder to measure the expected amount of research since there's so many factors to consider there (civics, number of cities, the plots the player has accessed and is working, buildings, etc...) so if we create an improved set of 'controls' where we can (establishing a solid definition of the expected average scientific output to achieve techs as the game progresses), it begins to give us the ability to then focus in on the strongest research generating or reducing factors to enact better balance where balance continues to lack.

Once we've begun to have most techs take roughly the same amount of time throughout the whole game for an average player who's only researching an x layer once all techs of the previous x layer have been completed, with some natural tolerances to variation, then we can begin to vary the tech costs by factors such as you point out.

When it takes me 6 rounds to research my first tech but I start getting into 1 round per tech later in the game and then more than one tech per round even later, then start suddenly hitting 4 round research times, I start feeling like we have a pretty big problem with this sort of balance. I don't think the whole of the problem is the tech costs but if we're to get a clear VIEW of where the problems lie, we need to anchor the costs first.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I agree with TB in that we need to set the baseline first. I am finding the tech length to study is not shortening as much as I progress now, which is a good thing. Before it was taking 14 turns in the Classical Era where turns are many years but 2 turns in the Renaissance where turns are a few years. This meant I was getting ahead of the AI faster and faster!

I also disagree with where some of the techs are but moving them is for another release.

 

[JosEPh_II]

@DH,
Thanks for your latest Commit. 100% agreement from the bleachers.

Sidenote: I do wish all Leaders with Religious preferences would not have such a head start to getting their favorite religion. But your recent changes, impo, are in the better direction. We had this once before and it worked.

Thanks again.

JosEPh

 

[Thunderbrd]

Sorry? How on earth is a point of theology a suitable tech to research?

The point of theology still relates to a point in human development, when a dawning recognition of the concept of a morality, thanks to the expansion of the frontal lobes of the brain, begins to develop.

I find it more poetic to give it that 'theological' moniker. 'Morality' sounds a bit flat. It also denies that the tech also means recognition of the potential for personal benefits by means of 'Immorality'.

It was theorized once in one of the novels I read long ago that Humanity's ability to lie was exactly what put it apart from the animal kingdom.

EDIT: We could alternatively call the tech 'Deception'. If I did that, I'd move the intended anti-crime unit to Cooperation. It would also be interesting to add an early crime here, "Lies" that gives a -1 Education.

If any Crime is initiated at GridX 2 and starts at mincrime level 50, then there must be a counter balance, an anti-crime unit or bldg. Else Crime as a whole will be even harder to handle in the earliest stages of the game. There is no counterbalance to Crime as a whole in the early part of the Tech tree in Preh Era. The only reason I've seen that crime does not escalate too rapidly in early Preh is because it's been made harder (takes longer) to get your initial city to size 2. 4% of 1 takes longer to build up than 4% of 2, 3, etc. (and this does not take in to account the diffusing property to adjacent tiles and then back to main city tile).

You would probably need to give Tribal Guardian a weak anti crime value to start, something like 2,1 or 1,1.

And if you happened to capture a city during early Preh (tribal guardian destroyed in Capture) then crime will really take off.

Edit: in previous post I stated there was a minlevel crime that started at 10 in Preh, actually that is not correct iirc it's 35 for pick pocket at Personal Adornment. (Will need to double check notes and tables on that)

JosEPh

I plan to add an early criminal unit AND an early crime fighting unit to that tech. As well as make that the point where the Crime Fighting Buildup I opens up (which the tribal guardian can already use but this will give an actual access point for it.)

Maybe we could move those first crimes to this tech to give it more 'flavor' if nothing else. It may also pick up some strategic promotions, moving their access to this tech. I know I want to see the first promo that gives a unit the ability to enhance crime move to this tech from warfare. But it should also get anything that may indicate the ability to set ambushes and such as well. I'll be looking for those.

As for min crime levels and min disease levels, anywhere from 1 to 50 would actually work for me. This would mean that the POSSIBILITY of crime or disease would start at at least 1 under the Advanced emergence system once converted from a mere 'advanced disease' system as it is now currently in the code (and it's also currently disabled but it's something I may be looking to repair and re-enact here very shortly.)

This was from the Crime modmod thread Joseph's got going. I also wanted to breakdown some other adjustments I'm wanting to make for full discussion.

x2
Add Tech 'Original Sin' (or 'Deception') at x2/y16
Add Watcher Unit unlocked at said tech.
Add Buildup (Crime Fighting) I unlocked at said tech.
Add Pariah Unit unlocked at said tech. (first 1pt crime unit - would love to make it impossible for him to stay inside the lands of his owner as he's an outcast)
Move the first crime generating promo here.


x3
Add Buildup (Disease Control) I to be unlocked at Herbalism.
Alternatively add Buildup (Crime Fighting) I and the Watcher (name is up for debate) to Cooperation as opposed to Original Sin/Deception. Watcher COULD thus take on a building prereq of the Watch Post (I think) building that unlocks at Cooperation.
Move Policing I to a later tech. See below.


x8
Move tech Conduct here to x8/y19 with prereqs of Games and Cultural Identity
Add Policing I to Conduct and Move Policing II further down the tech tree - see below.
Move Build Up (Crime Fighting) II further down the tech tree - see below.
Add Enforcers unit here (Bldg Prereq of Elder Council). Upgrade of the Watcher unit. (Similar upgrade to Wise Woman upgrading to Healer.)
Healer is here at Naturopathy already - good
Disease Control I at Naturopathy already - good


x24
Remove Town Watch from Masonry, see below.


x25
Dualism was here but since it was moved I've adjusted the plan.
Medicine Man (New Human Healer (primarily an upgrade in disease control rather than actual unit healing) fits in at Folk Medicine, which currently has no benefit for non-Asian civs otherwise.)
Move Disease Control II here at Folk Medicine
Build Up (Disease Control) II here at Folk Medicine


x27
Patrols (New Law Enforcement Unit at Dualism)
Move Policing II here to Dualism
Build Up (Crime Fighting) II at Dualism


x35
New Tech: Law Enforcement at y15
Preq Code of Laws and Military Training
Town Watch moves here to Law Enforcement (and is adjusted to match proper progression)
Policing III opens up at Law Enforcement
Build Up (Crime Fighting) III opens up at Law Enforcement


x36
Apothecary unlocks at Ancient Medicine currently - good
Disease Control III moved to open up at Ancient Medicine
Build Up (Disease Control) III moved to open up at Ancient Medicine
Replace Code of Laws Preqs on techs that have it with Law Enforcement Preq


x44
Move Guard from Engineering


x46
Move Guard here to Charters
Move Policing IV here to Charters
Build Up (Crime Control) IV to Charters


x50
Surgeon opens up at Anatomy as is - good
Move Disease Control IV here to Anatomy
Build Up (Disease Control) IV here to Anatomy


x53
Remove Policing IV and Build Up (Crime Fighting) IV (placed earlier)
Remove Disease Control III (placed earlier)

x54
City Guard opens up here and I intend not to move it.


x56
Remove Disease Control IV (placed earlier)


x58
New Technology: Elixirs and Tonics (x58/y17)
Preqs Microbiology and Biology
New bldg:Snake Oil Salesman
Add to Modern Sanitation Preqs
New Unit: Doctor at Elixirs and Tonics
Disease Control V at Elixirs and Tonics
Build Up (Disease Control) V at Elixirs and Tonics


x59
Move Sheriff


x62
New Tech: Deputization (or Deputies) (x62/y11)
Preq of Rep Democ & Military Tradition
Move Sheriff and Outlaw here from Steam Power (Outlaw maintains prereq of Cavalry Tactics)
Move Sheriff's Office here from Railroad
Add to prereqs for Firefighting and Wildlife Conservation
Policing V at Deputization
Build Up (Crime Control) V at Deputization
Moving Sheriff here to Deputization


x68
Medic at Medicine is here (good)
Disease Control VI (move here to Medicine)


x69
Police Squad is already here at Criminology (good)
Policing VI at Criminology (new promo)


x70
Police Car is already at Motorized Transportation (good)
Ambulance I is already at Motorized Transportation (good)


x75
Police APC is already at Mechanical Warfare (Good)


x76
Ambulance II is already at Logistics (Good)


x80
Add Police Helicopter (new unit) to Vertical Flight
Policing VII (new promo) at Vertical Flight
Add Modern Healthcare prereq to Medevac Helicopter and Modern Medevac Helicopter
Disease Control VII (new promo) at Modern Health Care


x84
Ensure Modern Medevac Helicopter unlocks here at Modern Warfare


x87
Remove Policing V and Build Up (Crime Fighting) V (they've been moved to earlier in the tree at this point.)
Add new Swat Team unit to Forensics
Add Policing VIII to Forensics


x90
Disease Control VIII at Bioinformatics
New Unit: Medical Lab Tech at Bioinformatics


x94/x95
Move Police Mech to Disaster Robots but retain Mechs prereq
Add Policing IX at Disaster Robots


x105
Medevac Dropship at Skyroads +
Disease Control IX


Going beyond this plan into Disease Control X and Crime Control X somewhere in the Galactic should wait til more development takes place there but we should be on the lookout for the perfect opportunity one more upgrade to both anti-disease and anti-crime units. That would round it out in finale imo.

As I hope is visible here, the point is to try to increase the anti-crime and anti-disease in a more gradual and somewhat comparable manner to each other throughout the tech tree.

There's also a solid plan in this to get unit upgrades to pop at the same time further anti-crime and anti-disease promos are unlocked - makes it much easier to upgrade everything and since they are now woken by doing so, you can promote those that you've been holding off on promoting. Might even teach the AI to do this as part of the project

Another side to this project would then be to work on what DH and I have been talking about for some time now which is the more advanced law vs criminal units inside cities dynamics. And I'd like to also now circle back to fleshing out the Advanced Disease system into an Advanced Properties system as AIAndy suggested long ago. Would work nicely to go in tangent with these developments.

All is open to discussion.

 

[Yudishtira]

This was from the Crime modmod thread Joseph's got going. I also wanted to breakdown some other adjustments I'm wanting to make for full discussion.

x2
Add Tech 'Original Sin' (or 'Deception') at x2/y16
Add Watcher Unit unlocked at said tech.
Add Buildup (Crime Fighting) I unlocked at said tech.
Add Pariah Unit unlocked at said tech. (first 1pt crime unit - would love to make it impossible for him to stay inside the lands of his owner as he's an outcast)
Move the first crime generating promo here.


x3
Add Buildup (Disease Control) I to be unlocked at Herbalism.
Alternatively add Buildup (Crime Fighting) I and the Watcher (name is up for debate) to Cooperation as opposed to Original Sin/Deception. Watcher COULD thus take on a building prereq of the Watch Post (I think) building that unlocks at Cooperation.
Move Policing I to a later tech. See below.

All is open to discussion.

I like all of this (ie. what I've quoted) a lot, except for the new tech. Watcher and Pariah are actually good names, perhaps the best possible. Just put it all at Cooperation (or somewhere similar) and forget about the new tech (imo).

 

[Thunderbrd]

I like all of this (ie. what I've quoted) a lot, except for the new tech. Watcher and Pariah are actually good names, perhaps the best possible. Just put it all at Cooperation (or somewhere similar) and forget about the new tech (imo).

What you stated in the other thread doesn't cover the ground that it did take an evolution that made us what we understand ourselves to be today as Humanity to develop the capacity for Deception. Lower animals can be selfish all day long but it took something special to become 'deceptive'. I'm happy to call the tech that and make a few adjustments there. I like the idea that we could promote here that it took us learning how to lie, cheat and steal (and murder) to figure out then how to truly cooperate.

Additionally, Cooperation is pretty busy as it is I think.

 

[Hydromancerx]

That may be true, but take a look at the megalithic structures that actually show up in the game:

Gobekli Tepe -- constructed between 9000-7000 BC
Stonehenge -- constructed between 3000-2000 BC
Hill of Tara -- constructed sometime after 3000 BC
Moai Statues -- constructed between 1250-1500 AD

I may be forgetting one or two, and I know I'm omitting the Druidic/Shamanistic 'cathedrals,' but this is fairly comprehensive. With the exception of Gobekli Tepe, all of the in-game megalithic wonders can be dated to the Bronze Age, firmly within the Neolithic (post-agricultural) period. Only the Gobekli Tepe really fits the 'shortly before sedentary communities' timing that we have in-game.

The tech rate in which the cultures those are from is highly different. The Rapa Nui for instance did not reach the Copper Age at all even though Europeans reached them in their late Renaissance Era ships.

In short the date they were invented is irrelevant. Its the technological level that is. Its like saying that if the Amish built a wonder today that it should be considered an early Transhuman era wonder. When really it should be more of an Early industrial era wonder due to their frozen state of technology (mostly).

 

[Arakhor]

Well, even if you set "Deception" as a column 3 tech, descended from Language and level with Cooperation, I still think that you're stretching "human psychology as a tech" almost to breaking point. Behavioural modernity obviously was a massive thing (and what literally sets us apart from animals and early humans), but given that we're already representing those with Language and Cooperation, I think it becomes very difficult to justify such high granularity of tech "research".