Technology Trading - What Determines AI Willingness

[Doc TK]

For some reason, now that I'm playing on Monarch level it seems like I can't get the AIs to trade technology with me.

I've been looking for posts on this, but haven't found anything good, oh and the google search stinks. There was one good post that showed specific technologies that AIs generally don't want to trade:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=140952

But its not the specific technologies mentioned.

Generally the situation is:

* I've raced ahead to get Alpha - and can sometimes do some trading at that point on lesser technologies. I try not to trade Alpha if I can avoid it. Often writing is enough.

* I've now created one or two really great science cities with lots of cottages, maybe even Great Library.

* I've gone for paper, education, liberalism or something like that.

Now only one AI is willing to trade. I may have gone to war at this point with someone who I chose because no one else liked them. I'm all green with the other AIs in terms of attitude. I've tried games where I adopt a religion or not adopt (generally I don't). But it doesn't seem to have much impact.

Maybe one AI is very willing to trade a couple of their crappy low-end techs for something great. But none of the other AIs will trade with me. And I generally don't think it makes sense to only trade with that one AI.

I think that at lower difficulty, AIs were more willing to trade.

Is there a way to get them to trade?

What influences whether they trade or not beyond attitude?

Is there a general rule on what their positive attitude needs to be at to get them to trade?

Does it help to have a larger army?

If there's no answer, should I just go back and research those low end techs - or trade the one AI for them?

 

[katank]

The AI is coded to only trade a certain amount of techs in a game. No matter how good your relations, they will eventually stop. Thus, choose your trades carefully, trade only for things you need.

 

[bonscott]

The AI is coded to only trade a certain amount of techs in a game. No matter how good your relations, they will eventually stop. Thus, choose your trades carefully, trade only for things you need.

That would be incorrect. I can trade all the way to fusion no problem. Well over half my techs are done in trades.

As for the original question: What about religion? AI's with the same religion will be more apt to trade with you then not. You should form up a religious block with at least one of the tech leaders and go from there.

And just because you have all green in relations with an AI doesn't mean they'll trade with you. You gotta have some good plusses in there.

But find out *why* they won't trade techs with you. They'll tell you. Simply hover over the tech they have that's in red and they tell you exactly why they won't trade it to you.

 

[Theodorick]

There's actually a lot of techs that the AI won't give to you no matter how generous you are, and I even remember reading an article posted with code to back this up. I can't find this article though...

Can anyone point it out?

 

[Phyacis]

From experience I'd say its almost 100% based on how much they like you. Regardless of what the verbiage of their excuse may be, if they like you enough they will always trade with you. Fairly easy to prove, just pick one AI and do/give everything they ask for; once you're at +15 or so they wont ever refuse to trade a tech with you.

Note, to get to +15 the fastest way is to share a religion and share their favorite civic - the spiritual trait often makes it realistic to do this for a trade, then switch back - spiritual is the ultimate tech broker trait, and massively under-rated

 

[Thalassicus]

I'm pretty sure I've traded every tech in the game at some point, and the only limitations I've seen are:

Relations - "...don't like you enough"
Recent advance - "...don't want to start giving away this tech"
Too close in tech level - "...fear you're becoming too advanced"

Usually the 2nd one has been the limiting factor in my games. You can tell what's holding them back by hovering over the redded-out tech(s) on the diplomacy screen.

 

[BlueRenner]

Some AIs love to trade tech, some don't. If you dig through the XML, you'll see there is even a rating given to each tech to determine its overall strategic "value".

If you play with Mansa Musa, you'll find he will ALWAYS trade tech. Other AIs wait until they no longer have a monopoly to start flipping tech out. Their attitude has a lot to do with this, and basic leader settings (again, look in the XML). Getting a leader to Friendly almost always means they'll trade anything with you. Often, this is the only way to get them to trade very competitive technologies.

Lastly, if you're running away with the game and have a significant tech lead, the AI will shut down tech trading to try to slow you down. Nothing gets rid of this, save falling behind. ("We fear you are becoming too advanced")

- Bill

 

[ShaLouZa]

An AI won't trade a tech if that tech is needed to build a wonder and if it's building this wonder. They won't trade a tech which gives a military or social advantage either, but neither would you, he ? And of they don't like you, they won't trade, of course. Would you give gunpowder or guilds to your enemy ?

There's usually a good reason, it's not "hard-coded that way".

 

[aviator99_uk]

I also find tech trading very dificult. (Monarch) Sometimes you can make it work, but often the advantage it gives the AIs just overwhelms.

And you cannot 'red' your techs so you get red marks against you for not wanting to trade, so if you want to keep trading techs and keep friendly with other civs you have to whoremonger your techs, (but they don't).

To be succesful in tech trading it would seem you have to plan the whole game round that single issue, turn tech trading off and there are countless diferences which allow you to try diferent strategies within the game which are just not available when whoremongering techs is necessary simply to survive.

 

[bonscott]

In my current game I was able to trade for Rifling, Chemistry and Replaceable Parts all on one turn. I have pretty decent relations with most civs. I went down the path Education/Libralism/Economics and also got Military Tradition.

I traded Military Tradition and Education to a guy who was "annoyed" for Replaceable Parts.
Traded Military Tradition and Economics to another for Rifling and traded Education and some gold straight up for Chemistry.

Sure I didn't get as much in any single deal as I gave up but guess what. I'm now completely caught up in tech and should stick in the lead from here on out. I'll keep an eye on the other tech leaders to see what path they take and I'll probably grab a couple techs they aren't going for like Biology most likely. Then I'll be able to trade around once again.

Now you may ask "what? are you crazy trading away MT and allowing the AI to get Calvary!" Well, since half the AI's have it already, I simply traded it to the ones that didn't. I'm not at war currently so I don't care, let them beat each other up with cavs. Besides, me getting Rifiling and only 1 tech away from cannons (and a short hop to infantry) will allow me to beat back any invading cav force anyway.

 

[maltz]

In my games (Epic, usually Emperor and sometimes Immortal), I can get the AIs to trade with me with fewer problems after I employ the following strategies:

1) Early trades: I would skip most of the basic techs and head straight for Writing -> Alphabat -> Drama -> Music. These 4 techs usually fulfills my needs for all basic techs, up to Math and possibly Calendar. Most AIs, as long as they are not annoyed with me, would be happy to trade away the basic techs.

With Drama + Music, I can usually bribe a Civ to attack another. Usually I make my toughest competitors to go to war against each other.

2) Starting from the beginning, I used either axeman, or horse archer + swordsman rush, to get rid off two neighbors, and occupy their juicy capitals and maybe 1 nice city. Basically I keep the invasion going to finance my high upkeep and keep research at 70-80%. I would stop taking cities when I have about 5-6 in total. Even a continuous city raze can't afford the crazy city upkeep after that.

3) While the AIs are usually researching more religious techs (Theology, Philosophy) and perhaps Feudalism, I rush for maceman (machinery & civil service) and catapault, to eliminate yet another neighbor, and possibly another after that. I start to occupy the cities again since I can afford it.

At this point I would have establish the score lead. The AIs become less willing to trade with me, if they have anything to offer at all. To get civil service, I would research Currency, so I can still SELL my low techs to them. Selling techs is where 90% of my cash comes from.

After that I can still trade a few techs, but nothing much afterwards. The AIs lag too much behind. They become hopeless.

 

[Bezhukov]

There is a limit to how many techs the AI will trade to the player - not each AI, but the AI in general, but that limit goes up with "pleased" relations, and is eliminated with "friendly".

 

[Boppo]

There is a limit to how many techs the AI will trade to the player - not each AI, but the AI in general, but that limit goes up with "pleased" relations, and is eliminated with "friendly".

There are other considerations then. I have friendly Civs on a Monarch game that will not trade some techs with me.

 

[bonscott]

There are other considerations then. I have friendly Civs on a Monarch game that will not trade some techs with me.

Yes there are. Again, just hover over the tech that they won't trade and find out why.

 

[Doc TK]

I appreciate the input on this.

I honestly had never seen the "hover" message before. So I went back and looked. But, the message is something like "I'm not interested in trading that tech right now." or something equally lame and meaningless

I wish there was something a bit more specific about the requirements for them to trade so I could play to that a bit more.

I personally find it awefully hard on Monarch+ to keep up with the leaders unless I can trade technology.

 

[bonscott]

But, the message is something like "I'm not interested in trading that tech right now." or something equally lame and meaningless

Not meaningless at all. Actually this means that the tech unlocks something they don't want you to have just yet. Best example is that it unlocks a wonder which they are building and they want to finish it first or perhaps it unlocks a key resource or military unit they don't want you to have until they get a leg up with it first. Eventually they will trade it, once they feel they have the advantage over you in that area. Just like the you the human does (I hope anyway!)

 

[Landmonitor]

I'm currently playing a game on Noble as Mao. I arbitrarily picked Egypt as my friend, stopped trading with Civs they don't like, did open borders, and waited. Eventually, Hatty asked for a tech. I gave it to her. I gave her everything she asked for (In total, I think three techs, only one of which made me wince to give it away). Now, as long as I have a tech of comparable value, she'll trade techs she just researched and has a monopoly on (I'm not sure about just reserached, I check about every four turns, so at most three turns old). Anyway, that's how I got that to work. Once I adopted her religion, it got even easier. Now it doesn't matter though, since after taking out a neighbour, my momentum is carrying me far past hatty, but it'll end up being a fun Modern-Armour battle to betray her...

 

[Hans Lemurson]

I do a lot of "wheeling and dealing" with my technologies in order to stay on top, and after a while some of my friends had their technologies redded out with the justification of "We fear you are becoming to advanced". I think that this must have happened because I exceeded my trade-quota with them, since they were otherwise friendly (not by rating though) and there was no other reason against the trade.

"We fear you are becoming too advanced" is probably then the indicator for trade-quota overrun.

 

[BenniusCaesar]

There's actually a lot of techs that the AI won't give to you no matter how generous you are, and I even remember reading an article posted with code to back this up. I can't find this article though...

Can anyone point it out?

Don't know about the article, but I think communism is one of those. Just from my observation.

Also, definitely soem civs just like trading tech more than others. Because I have had games where Friendly civs who won't trade techs but Cautious ones will.

 

[Bezhukov]

"'We fear you are becoming too advanced' is probably then the indicator for trade-quota overrun."

It is, but its not civ-specific, its an overall quota. Say the limit is ten techs. So whether you trade 5 with Hatty and 5 with Genghis or all 10 with Hatty, neither Genghis nor Hatty will trade with you unless you're able to raise the limit by improving relations.

Communism has a wonder that sometimes takes awhile to get built, so that could account for the AI reluctance (I think the civic also makes the AI value it more. But I think I have traded for it (its been awhile since I usually make it a priority to research it first, however much violence the CivIV version does to the RL version ).