Term 5- Judiciary: Law and Sleepless Nights

[Chieftess]

If you take a look at the archives, and look at the DG1 and DG2 PIs, you will see they they were done in a speedy manner. A post was posted in the PI thread (then judiciary), and a PI thread would be made within a few hours. That thread would be up for a certain amount of hours (I think 72?), then a guilty/innocence poll was put up. If they were guilty, then a sentencing poll.

 

[donsig]

No, this position is completely wrong, both factually and in common sense. The ruling in question said that the sitting justice who is taking part in a CC may not participate in cases related to the CC the justice is participating in. Neither the ruling nor CoL D.2 says that the office is vacant, so article G does not apply. This concept corresponds very closely to the real world. A judge who recuses himself/herself from a case steps aside for that case only and does not give up the bench.

According to the previous judicial review:

Therefore, in answer to the question, NO, this Court feels that allowing a sitting Justice to take an advocate role in the case, and then vote on the outcome, is a basic violation of the principles outlined in Article F, requiring impartiality by the Court. If the Justice wishes to take an advocate role in the case, they should appoint a Pro Tem for the entire Citizen Complaint process. Once the entire process is completed, and the final outcome known, the Justice returns to fulfill his normal duties. According to the same Article F of the Constitution of Fanatica, there shall only be one Chief Justice and two Associate Justices at any time. Therefore if a Justice appoints a Pro Tem to fulfill their duties in a Citizen Complaint process, they relinquish their position until the Citizen Complaint is complete.

Read the last sentence. Now explain to me the difference between *relinquish their position* and vacating their office.

 

[DaveShack]

Well, we're arguing the JR case which we ought not do here, but it is necessary to attempt to convince you of the erroneous assumption under which you're pursuing the JR, to keep us from getting wrapped around an even bigger tarball.

According to the previous judicial review:
Read the last sentence. Now explain to me the difference between *relinquish their position* and vacating their office.

You're trying to say that temporarily relinquishing the position is in conflict with permanently vacating the office, such that the office has to be vacated permanently and the vacant office apopintment process has to be followed.

I'm saying that this ruling, as well as CoL D.2, by making the pro-tem position temporary, means that article G does not apply. A Law (CoL) is allowed to clarify an Article (Constitution) in the cases where provisions for such a clarification are present. Article F makes exactly the provision which is needed. Appointing a pro-tem does not vacate the justice position under Article G.

Please, just present the prosecution, let justice be done, and we can all move on.

 

[ravensfire]

If you take a look at the archives, and look at the DG1 and DG2 PIs, you will see they they were done in a speedy manner. A post was posted in the PI thread (then judiciary), and a PI thread would be made within a few hours. That thread would be up for a certain amount of hours (I think 72?), then a guilty/innocence poll was put up. If they were guilty, then a sentencing poll.

Ah yes, everything in the good old days was so much better.


Like that's never been heard from you before...

-- Ravensfire

 

[Bootstoots]

Our current CC system would work if we had an active judiciary (which we were lacking in terms 3, 4, and to some extent 2). We could finish these CC's quickly with the remedy phase, given the right judiciary, but that doesn't seem to be happening. However, if we're constantly unable to fulfill the CoS requirement for the proceedings to be carried out in an expedient manner, we may want to look to going back to a system similar to the DG1 and 2 PI systems.

 

[donsig]

I'm saying that this ruling, as well as CoL D.2, by making the pro-tem position temporary, means that article G does not apply. A Law (CoL) is allowed to clarify an Article (Constitution) in the cases where provisions for such a clarification are present. Article F makes exactly the provision which is needed. Appointing a pro-tem does not vacate the justice position under Article G.

Please, just present the prosecution, let justice be done, and we can all move on.

CoL D.2.a cannot nullify Article G. (When you say article G does not apply. you are attempting to have a law over-ride the constitution and that is a Of course it is quite obvious that many of you out there in demogame land just don't get it.

And don't accuse me of holding things up. I did my investigation in term three when Peri was CJ.

 

[Cyc]

Well, I'm glad we got that squared away...

Personally, I don't see why we're waiting 9 days after my opointment as Associate Justice pro tem to start these proceddings. But there must be a good reason.

On to the CCs.

AJ Cyc pro tem

 

[tao]

Because of this ramble

The Following is a Joint Plan between the Department of "Defense" and the Ministry of Internal Affairs.
This plan calls for the following:
Increased output of defensive units by all able cities. Definition of "able"- Ability to create a shield per turn output of 30 shields (a 3 turn infantry). If there is not a drastic increase of defensive units, MIA will begin a draft, drafting units in every major (greater than or equal to size twelve, or an "able" city) city if need be for three consecutive turns.

as Governor of Audiac I urgently request a Judicial Review on who is allowed to order drafting. CoL C.1.b.4 assigns the decision on pop rushing to the Governor. And drafting IMHO is the pop rushing of industrial and modern times. Thus it is NOT within the perview of DoD and/or DP.

The issue is urgent, because it should be clarified before the next turnchat. Thank you.

 

[Stuck_as_a_Mac]

I would actually like to second this review. I was speaking with Chieftess in the chat (sorry. no transcript) and neither of us knew whose job it was, hers, mine, the DPs or the governors. A review would actually be helpful here as it would help in the determining of what MIA can actually do.
PS- tao: request for units still stands, regardless of the outcome of this review.
SaaM

 

[Cyc]

I was in error on the 19th of this month, when I said "I didn't see why we were waiting 9 days after my appointment as Associate Justice pro tem to start these proceedings. What I should have said was "I don't see why we're waiting 12 days to start the proceedings."

I can also see why Chief Justice Zarn never gave the outline of procedure or time schedule for these CCs, that I requested on the 13th. He never intended to hold court on these CCs. This Judiciary has just been a repeat of the Terms 2-4 Judiciary. Nothing ever gets done. Thanks for wasting my precious time.

AJ Cyc ~ pro tem

 

[Zarn]

I was in error on the 19th of this month, when I said "I didn't see why we were waiting 9 days after my appointment as Associate Justice pro tem to start these proceedings. What I should have said was "I don't see why we're waiting 12 days to start the proceedings."

I can also see why Chief Justice Zarn never gave the outline of procedure or time schedule for these CCs, that I requested on the 13th. He never intended to hold court on these CCs. This Judiciary has just been a repeat of the Terms 2-4 Judiciary. Nothing ever gets done. Thanks for wasting my precious time.

AJ Cyc ~ pro tem

That's bull. This demogame like always is full of people that never itend to play a game but to kill one another. Why should I wastes any more time on the prosecution or defense, if neither one is willing to do anything or even talk to me? I came in the Judiciary to help out, yet no one wants to go theough these CC's. All everyone wants to do is complain about who is going what on the Judiciary. There was a schedule, but I shouldn't have to take these attacks from people. I have enough stress in my life. I try to help, people try to make it hard on me, wht should I stay. I came back to the Demogame in hpes that people got into the actual spirit of the game. How foolish was I to believe that people would try to actually enjoy the game.

 

[Cyc]

That's bull. This demogame like always is full of people that never itend to play a game but to kill one another. Why should I wastes any more time on the prosecution or defense, if neither one is willing to do anything or even talk to me? I came in the Judiciary to help out, yet no one wants to go theough these CC's. All everyone wants to do is complain about who is going what on the Judiciary. There was a schedule, but I shouldn't have to take these attacks from people. I have enough stress in my life. I try to help, people try to make it hard on me, wht should I stay. I came back to the Demogame in hpes that people got into the actual spirit of the game. How foolish was I to believe that people would try to actually enjoy the game.

No, that's not bull, Zarn. You guys did not do these CCs because you claimed lack of participation. You claimed you couldn't find people to fill the positions. Well, we had all of the needed positions filled almost 2 weeks ago. Even though I specifically posted in this thread for a schedule and an outline of procedures, you ignored the request. If we had started these 10 days (or even a week ago) we'd be done by now. But nothing was ever done about them. Well, except for donsig's latest display of donsigism, which should have been ignored. He should not be able to throw up roadblocks anytime he wants. I supported you as CJ up until recently, Zarn. All you had to do was post a thread in the citizen's forum and post a notice here. That's it...

But just like Peri and ravensfire, nothing ever gets done. Period. I'm sure there are a lot of good excuses, most of which we've all heard before. But those still don't get the work done. Bottom line, another ineffective Judiciary. No bull about it.

 

[Zarn]

So you still choose to be ignorant about this. I gave the defense time to investigate. Solve your own problems for now on. If you didn't get the hint, I resigned (in protest of the way people are acting here). Like I said, I have enough stress as it is. Why did I even bother rejoining this game? It's not even a game, it's like an anger fest.

Edit: Also, your approval really means nothing to me. No one likes me at all (at least on CFC), so what's the approval of just one man of a 'job' in the Demogame?

 

[gert-janl]

I gave the defense time to investigate.

The investigation of the defense is completed, so I would like to ask the Court to start the CC proceedings.

 

[Cyc]

The investigation of the defense is completed, so I would like to ask the Court to start the CC proceedings.

Too late, gert-janl, Zarn has quit. It's obvious Zarn didn't want to run the CCs because of political reasons, so now that he either has to start them or defend his actions (did you really need two weeks to prepare the defense?), he's decided to ship-wreck the entire process by resigning.

Life at CFC...

Thanks for trying to get me on board, gert-janl.

 

[Black_Hole]

it wasnt because of political reasons cyc, he has had a whole lot of stress yet he has gotten the most done since term 1. he needs some slack. Sorry to see you go Zarn.

 

[donsig]

it wasnt because of political reasons cyc, he has had a whole lot of stress yet he has gotten the most done since term 1. he needs some slack. Sorry to see you go Zarn.

Maybe he's gotten the most done since term 2...

 

[DaveShack]

Cyc -- a simple "when are we getting these CC's moving" would have sufficed. Now they're stuck in limbo yet again. Perhaps a softer touch next time.

 

[Cyc]

Cyc -- a simple "when are we getting these CC's moving" would have sufficed. Now they're stuck in limbo yet again. Perhaps a softer touch next time.

DaveShack, these CCs were never going to be addressed. As I stated above, I asked for a schedule and outline of procedures. The CJ ignored my request. I expressed my concern about waiting so long to get the CCs under way, the CJ ignored my statement. Both times, I figured he was busy, so I didn't push it. Then he finally tells donsig that the CCs will start on the 22nd. Then the CJ completely ignored that set date.

All this time, I'm checking the Judicial thread for any activity at all, as I felt it was part of my job as pro tem Associate Justice. A complete waste of time. Plus I had to sit through insults from donsig. CJ Zarn had two weeks to do ANYTHING! He did nothing. I did as you say and asked politely, I held my tongue. But to no avail, he still did nothing and still neglected to address my concerns. You can blame Zarn's quiting on me, but I'm not to blame. His quiting just ensures his goal of not holding court on these CCs. Say what you will.

 

[eyrei]

Moderator Action: Cyc and donsig, that will be quite enough. Eyrei.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889