Terraforming and the environment.

[sir_schwick]

One of my favorite things about SMAC was that massive terraforming was not without a price. Over time your improvements(which were much more needed then in Civ) would cause ecological damage. They could change local rainfall patterns, causing damper or drier conditions. Thermal Boreholes could ruin useful terrain, and lots of improvements could cause smog which reduced money and research. These effects were location based, so neighbors might get the brunt of your bad odors and industries.

A model which reflects the damage of human terraforming shoudl be incorported. Massive irrigation can lead to back-flow of pesticides(modern) into rivers and less water in the river. Over things affecting water content include polluting industries and population. Mining any squares can lead to some degree of erosion. Polluting cities might carry smog effects over the border. Pollution shoudl no longer be linked on to industry and specific squares. It is an area effect problem and should be felt as such. THis would also encourage diplomacy based on a clean world.

 

[Onza]

Good point and important.

To my mind a possibility to set a chronology-based terrain change is necessary for real realism - i.e. if you play dawn of humankind scenario - you'll have to deal with rapidly changing coast line and sinking land-bridges between the continents. THe same - if you play the present-day game with global warming and rising the sea level - your coastal (often most important) cities have to go underwater with time.
Also important is a link between the pollution level in the city and terrain degradation around it (jungles to plains and then to deserts etc.), the same - around mines and in inrrigated lands (with different speed of changes).

 

[sir_schwick]

In SMAC the water level thing was really easy to handle b/c all terrain had elevation. If they reintroduced the more 3-D terrain, then water levels coudl be an interesting part of the game again.

They actually did the rapidly changing land with scripting in a Civ 2 scenario that I think was called Atlantis. At the end of the scenarios three acts, Atlantis would sink farther into the sea.

 

[Onza]

Escuse me, what is a full name for SMAC ? - I've been running into this abbreviation time after time and have no clue...

 

[sealman]

Escuse me, what is a full name for SMAC ? - I've been running into this abbreviation time after time and have no clue...

Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri.

I have never played it but I believe it is a civ style game but with a Sci Fi theme to it.

 

[Onza]

Oh, I see....
Well, to my eye the game graphics looked awfully... so i declined it after a couple of times.
Thanks for clearing the point

 

[superpelon]

I AGREE... massive terraforming (cutting down forests and jungles, draining swamplands, mining grasslands) should cause some form of pollution.

Increasing overall pollution in all cities?? of just in the nearest one?? Should there be a way to counteract this environmental rape??

Course, the problem is, what about the AI?? it mines, terraforms just about everything... massive pollution would pop up... golbal warming...

 

[sir_schwick]

Superleon, have you played SMAC? If you ahven't, play a little bit and you'll get an idea of exactly what I mean. I assume from your questions and comments you like the idea that environmental rape doesn't go unpunished. And yes, the AI would have to think more environmentally, or maybe that coudl be one of those things different AIs have contention over.

SMAC was what happened once your spaceship reached Alpha Centauri. Many of the concepts from SMAC, such as bombardment, were incorported into Civ 3. Yes the graphics are terrible by today's standard, but underneath the ugliness is a gooey strategy core.

 

[Goshawk]

You could even add problems with irrigation, and then other problems with farmland as the civ developes.

Mining could evolve into deep core mining, etc and have similiar and more negative effects too.

Good idea.

 

[sir_schwick]

I did forget to add the evolution of minign and agricultural tech. Good point Goshawk. Maybe you could even include behavior that is destructive for a while(dangerous pesticides) that are only discovered over time(Silent Spring). Maybe, as I just exampled, once Scientific Method and Refining are around for a little while, pesticides start gainign prevalence(no announcement to you at this event). Tiles with irrigation would start feeding pesticide into the river or water source they feed into(non of this water-less irrigation, the water must come from somewhere). This will cause slight reduction of food in cities(maybe 1 or 2 max) that use that water source. There would be some kind of environmental advisor that coudl tell you what problems were afflicting a city. Over time the cause would be discovered and dealt with, maybe problems would last for different amounts(80 years for the pesticide one).

 

[DJ Bonebraker]

I like most of the ideas stated here, but I'd like to add a few things.

First of all, make the amount of forests, wetlands, and jungles have an effect on pollution and global warming, so that if one plays like I usually do (let's just say "elven paradise" ) and plants trees on every tile not otherwise occupied, not to mention does not clear wetlands or jungles, the # of Jungle/wetland/forest tiles are present reduce the global pollution by x amount per tile.

In addition, make it possible to create wetlands and plant jungles(with ecology or wildlife management or something like that), and build a city improvement called a "National Park" that increased revenue from wetlands, jungles and forest tiles, and maybe another called "Wildlife Management District" that generates extra food from Forests and Jungles (to represent limited, controled hunting, which most environmentalists and park rangers aggree is the best way to keep animal populations within supportable limits for the habitat). For wetlands, there could be an "Organic Aquaculture" improvement that increases food by 2 (to represent crayfish/fish farming in swamps, that if done properly has no environmental impact, and increases the usefulness of a wetlands as well a providing incentive for not destroying them).

Just a few Ideas I'm throwing out, because I was planning to incorperate these concepts in my Tweaked Out mod, but the limitations of Civ III wouldn't allow them. Please feel free to tell me what you think.

 

[sir_schwick]

First of all, make the amount of forests, wetlands, and jungles have an effect on pollution and global warming, so that if one plays like I usually do (let's just say "elven paradise" ) and plants trees on every tile not otherwise occupied, not to mention does not clear wetlands or jungles, the # of Jungle/wetland/forest tiles are present reduce the global pollution by x amount per tile.

Very nice. I forgot about the absorbing affect of trees. I also liked the ideas of Green freindly improvements, especially the National Parks bit.

That part about the 'elven paradise' got me thinking. In another thread(RTS, http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=2028669&postcount=17 ) I suggest you can give your-self various upgrades. Imagine giving yourself bonuses in Forests and then propogating a strategy of planting trees everywhere. You would create your own advantage over the polluting players.

Players who prefer open terrain could give themselves bonuses for open land and to clear foilage faster. Conflicts could occur(probably economic) over different environment strategies clashing.

 

[Onza]

Excellent ideas, Hikaro-san!
I agree with everything you've said. Plus - to my eyes improvements like National Parks could serve as a city powerful pollution reductors (like ususal parks in the "Way of atlantis" addon but more effective) as well as a highly commercial project giving the city both extra mony and entertainment. Several, say ten to twenty National parks constructed in the cities could become basisc for a Nation-wide WOnder like National Environment Protection Network. THat could serve as 1) the Wonder giving a National park in each city and 2) overall feature adding greatly to the Nation reputation during election in UN and a potential to be a leader in the race for inintiating the Kyoto Protokol in UN.

Possibly, first ten to twenty National parks could only be built in the cities with a combination of at least three types of bio-resources within the city radius. In particular - birds of prey (I've done them for my scenarios) - as a top food-chain indicator of a healthy ecosystem, generic buffalos - as a typical big game special on each land mass except Austral (a different project for unique Australians) and big cats - top indicator for mammals. - That's for example. After building a Wonder of NEPN - the National parks would be build automatically in every city with no regard to its resources.

The country to have managed to pursuade other countries into sighning the Protokol would achiev huge bonuses in scientific development, pollution elimination in all its cities and nice amount of payments on turn base from countries still polluting the Earth (proportionally to their harmful impact to our common place of living). - All this are just suggestions, but i thik they do reflect the current tendencies in the developed world.


To bad my own country is a pure ecological barbarian :-( Just like the USA, though.