Terrorist attack in France at a newspaper office: at least 11 dead.

[Cheetah]

What I see in the news the particular attack that was done in Sultan Ahmet turizm sube mudurlugu (tourism office) was done by Marxist-Leninist group DHKP-C (suicide bombing). While maybe the one that you mention is the attack that happen in Sirnak Cizre in east part of Turkey done by Kurdish nationalist group YDG-H (quite brutal civilian house been burned while the family inside, but thanks God they all save) or the one that happen in Dolma Bahce and I'm not sure if he is a Kurdish or Leftist radical militia.

It was the third example I was thinking of IIRC.

Anyway, if the Marxists were Turks, and Turkish media is not falling over themselves attacking Marxism, then that is a very good example to follow.

YEC doesn't exist in France, so it has little impact...

It exists internationally, and in that way it does have an impact. I think ElMac is onto something, however tangential it is.

 

[HannibalBarka]

It's really a sad day. Among the victims there are Cabu and Wolinsky, two cartoonists that I really loved. The newspaper is dead which is a shame as it was really unique in its genre. MAy all the victims RIP.

 

[Zelig]

I think freedom of expression is already damaged beyond repair in several European countries. Let's be honest, who here would be willing to publish a Mohammed cartoon in a a country like France or Holland nowadays? I know I wouldn't. I wouldn't write it, and if owned the magazine I wouldn't publish it, and if I worked for a magazine that published it I would quit. Not because I care about offending radicals, but because I don't want to die.

This is why I'd support a state-sponsored Mohammed cartoon publishing initiative.

 

[El_Machinae]

YEC doesn't exist in France, so it has little impact...

Christian YECism wouldn't have a local impact anyway, since they're different communities. It's the creation of propaganda tools that they go around the globe via the interwebs that matter.

 

[H4run]

It was the third example I was thinking of IIRC.

Anyway, if the Marxists were Turks, and Turkish media is not falling over themselves attacking Marxism, then that is a very good example to follow.

I mean it always should work that way I will not question Buddhism for what happen in Myanmar, or Christianity for what happen in Central Africa Republic. And none of Christian or Buddhist should responsibly condone, apologize, or try to explain how it is not related to their faith because it is not.

But everytime random Muslims moron done something, I really feel so tense, I grab my hair "why you do thattttt!!!" when I see the news on what happen in Australia and I literally feel worry on other Muslims safety in Ausie. It is really illogical and strange feeling. And not so healthy feeling I guess.

 

[luiz]

This is why I'd support a state-sponsored Mohammed cartoon publishing initiative.

I just hope the global Jihadists never turn their attention to Brazilian comedy. Stuff is done over there that makes Charlie Hebdo look prudish and PC. The most popular band of the 1990's had a song titled "Robocop Gay" which mocked a lot of macho figures implying they are all gay, including (you guessed it), Mohammed and Allah. May God continue to keep Brazil irrelevant and unknown!

 

[HannibalBarka]

They, usually, both share a book that contains some pretty terrible ideas.

I don't think moderates should act surprised when someone decides that perhaps stoning a woman to death, for example, really is the right thing to do.

Moderates are not literalist though and do not conden "stoning women" and even less so "killing innocent journalist" more than my next door Christian neighbour would conden fundamentalist Christian shooting "abortionist" or attacking gays. I find Capital punishment horrific and really think the US should stop legally killing people, and I also think the right to bear arms as is practised in the US to be a crime against US people, but I do not think that my American friends who are against it share a responsibility just because they all share a constitution that permits those things

 

[warpus]

"I am not afraid of retaliation. I have no kids, no wife, no car, no credit. It perhaps sounds a bit pompous, but I prefer to die standing than living on my knees." - Charb, one of the caricaturists assassinated today.

 

[luiz]

I mean it always should work that way I will not question Buddhism for what happen in Myanmar, or Christianity for what happen in Central Africa Republic. And none of Christian or Buddhist should responsibly condone, apologize, or try to explain how it is not related to their faith because it is not.

But everytime random Muslims moron done something, I really feel so tense, I grab my hair "why you do thattttt!!!" when I see the news on what happen in Australia and I literally feel worry on other Muslims safety in Ausie. It is really illogical and strange feeling. And not so healthy feeling I guess.

People of Japanese, German or Italian descent also suffered in the New World for what the countries of their ancestors did. One of my favorite bars in Rio is a German bar called "Bar Luiz", hardly a very German name. Turns out it was actually named "Bar Adolph", opened by a German immigrant named Adolph. Until German subs torpedoed a Brazilian merchant ship and some moronic students of the Brazilian Students Union (which continues to be moronic until this day, but that's a different matter) went to the place with molotov cocktails and stones to burn it to the ground, thinking the name was a homage to Hitler (even though the bar was opened in the 19th Century). It was only saved because Ary Barrosos, back then the most famous "sambista" of Brazil, intervened. Still, the owner thought prudent to change the name to something more Brazilian sounding.

The point of this little anecdote is that Muslims are hardly alone in facing collective discrimination for the actions of a others who are perceived to be of their kind.

 

[classical_hero]

This is pretty sad. My sympathies to the families and to the French in general.



Fine. But it's rather disgusting that your first reaction is to preemptively accuse others of bigotry instead of sympathizing with 12 people killed by intolerant monsters. You don't care about the actual victims, just about "potential future victims" that fit into your little worldview of who the "real victims" are. So the real victims are not the 12 killed by radical muslims, but rather the muslims that may get a funny look on the street. Bah.

Yeah, we can';t call them what they say they because that would make us bigots. Why is when an attack clearly has a Muslim origin that we can't call them that? Why are so many Westerners willing to stand up for them rather than call them out?

This will be characterised as a "lone wolves" attack just like every other lone wolf attack that has happened. Not that all of them share the same ideology. Unfortunately more people will die as a result of us not being willing to confront the problem head on. Considering there had been previous attack on French soil, I feel these people died unnecessarily, because we are too afraid to do confront the problem. Sad times we are living in.

 

[aelf]

And you know I have not sympathized with the victims how?

Whoosh

Am I really reading this - Aelf telling someone not to blame collectives, but individuals?

Now that's something new, not so long time ago he blamed entire nations for war crimes.

Oh? Do go on. This will be funny.

Yeah, we can';t call them what they say they because that would make us bigots. Why is when an attack clearly has a Muslim origin that we can't call them that? Why are so many Westerners willing to stand up for them rather than call them out?

This will be characterised as a "lone wolves" attack just like every other lone wolf attack that has happened. Not that all of them share the same ideology. Unfortunately more people will die as a result of us not being willing to confront the problem head on. Considering there had been previous attack on French soil, I feel these people died unnecessarily, because we are too afraid to do confront the problem. Sad times we are living in.

Someone called; and this guy came out of the woodwork.

 

[Farm Boy]

I didn't say religion was the only thing that drove people to violence. Please don't put words in my mouth.

No, you didn't say that. What you did say was:

It's telling to me that the more literal-minded and fundamentalist a religious person is, the more dangerous they are.

Being a literal-minded religious person increases how dangerous they are. I reject that. I say some people who are literal-minded religious persons are dangerous, but I also say that the dangerousness of a person is far more likely influenced by other factors, that often, not always, the religion is the window-dressing. I'd rather take a long hike through Amish country than I would a short walk through the south side of Chicago. And one of those environments is much more heavily influenced by literal-minded religiosity than the other.

 

[Recon Rover]

Moderates are not literalist though and do not conden "stoning women" and even less so "killing innocent journalist" more than my next door Christian neighbour would conden fundamentalist Christian shooting "abortionist" or attacking gays.

Of course they don't, that's why they're moderates.

I find Capital punishment horrific and really think the US should stop legally killing people, and I also think the right to bear arms as is practised in the US to be a crime against US people, but I do not think that my American friends who are against it share a responsibility just because they all share a constitution that permits those things.

You can attempt to conflate a religious document and its obvious exceptional influence on people with the constitution or something equivalently benign but don't expect me to bite.

 

[Recon Rover]

Whoosh

Precisely. And you enter this conversation with a personal attack but get the benefit of doubt about your sympathy for the victims in Paris because you knelt over a carpet a couple of hours ago I imagine.

 

[HannibalBarka]

Of course they don't, that's why they're moderates.

so you do agree that they don't share any responsibility in this crime than, or not?

You can attempt to conflate a religious document and its obvious exceptional influence on people with the constitution or something equivalently benign but don't expect me to bite.

you don't have faith in Humans, do you? What makes you think only religious book can be not "benign"? I am honestly surprised to hear you say so when I guess you're not religious
I think many Americans (most )hold the US constitution to be a very important documents, some thing they're ready to die to defend, but maybe you do not share this view. And religious book have exceptional influence on extremely religious people only (be them violent or not), not all the followers of a given religion

 

[El_Machinae]

Being a literal-minded religious person increases how dangerous they are. I reject that. I say some people who are literal-minded religious persons are dangerous, but I also say that the dangerousness of a person is far more likely influenced by other factors, that often, not always, the religion is the window-dressing. I'd rather take a long hike through Amish country than I would a short walk through the south side of Chicago. And one of those environments is much more heavily influenced by literal-minded religiosity than the other.

Yes, it's the combination of faith and interpretation that matters. I'm not saying anything against literalism. It's literalist* Islam that I'm most worried about.

*not quite the right word. Ehn.

 

[Recon Rover]

so you do agree that they don't share any responsibility in this crime than, or not?

What I have claimed is that so long as there are billions of people getting their morals from as unsavory a book as the Bible, Torah, or Quran that they should appreciate the amount of psychopaths that have and will inevitably be produced as a product of their own shared ignorance. I want recognition that moderates are not helping the problem. Claiming someone isn't a 'true muslim or 'true christian' isn't good enough.

And religious book have exceptional influence on extremely religious people only (be them violent or not), not all the followers of a given religion

Oh c'mon. People have been and continue to be persecuted, especially women, because of moderate religion. We didn't need fanatics to manage denying the right of person to Suzy Homemaker did we?

 

[aelf]

Precisely. And you enter this conversation with a personal attack but get the benefit of doubt about your sympathy for the victims in Paris because you knelt over a carpet a couple of hours ago I imagine.

Whoosh

*looks at join date* Oh.

I'll be nice even though you seem to have some kind of prejudice against people who "knelt over a carpet" (party planners??)

Spoiler :

Hint: It was an ironic post made in imitation of another one.

 

[Akka]

Man.. Some people are just too crazy to be allowed into liberal democracies. I'm all for immigration and open borders and all, but I'm not against much stricter standards about who we let into our beautiful countries. Would that have stopped this - I don't know, maybe not.. I just don't know what else to say..

The attackers spoke fluent french, so it's unlikely they were immigrants. I'm betting on either second-generation migrants (that is, sons of migrants), or the new vogue of mid-class youth trying to find purpose in religious extremism.

Either way, it's still plastered all over all information channels (to give you an idea of the impact, it's the most deadly attack in the country since 1961).
I expect that far-right parties will get a significant amount of improved support over this, which is ironical considering they were even more of a target of the newspaper than religious fundies.

 

[Marla_Singer]

Bernard Maris, an economist and editorialist who has also been my personal Master thesis tutor, is part of the victims.



Rest in peace.